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dalguard
Aug 13, 2004, 6:39 PM
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I agree. Asking someone to catch a tricky leader fall on their first day belaying is a bit much. As others have pointed out, catching a leader who's only 15 feet up is always a little dicey. Unless you have a piece clipped at or above your waist, you're going to come close to hitting the ground and that's with an experienced, attentive belayer. I think the OP should be glad it wasn't worse and chalk it up to experience.
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bbmass
Aug 13, 2004, 7:10 PM
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Thanks for all the comments and get well wishes. I had an x-ray the other day, there isn't a break, though there is a possibility of a stress fracture that won't show up in the x-ray for 2 weeks. Just to clarify a few points…
While my belayer made the mistake it was I that put him in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know this.
I plan on doing some well protected lead falls with my 2 main climbing partners so they understand what they are signing up for.
I am not going to buy a grigri
I don't appreciate having my post moved. I placed it in trad climbing because I asked a question about whether I should use a Grigri and wanted feedback from trad climbers. My question was the reason for my post.
I can't wait to climb again
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rendog
Aug 14, 2004, 1:17 AM
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Glad to hear you're ok Brian.
and good thinking on the practice falls. just make sure you have some one there if your partners aren't experinced in catching lead falls
I do it all the time. Mind you I just love to fall
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imnotbob
Aug 14, 2004, 1:51 AM
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Like someone else mentioned, I'm curious as to your placement(s). Easy climbs can turn ugly fast! Evaluate your fall with your partner. How far were you above your last piece? How far from the ground was that placement? How close to the ground would that put you (assuming no slip/dynamics)? Did you fall while making a placement or while moving (was the belayer in the process of 'feeding' the rope?).
To answer you question, IMO, a gri gri isn't the best answer.
I'm glad to hear your ankle isn't too bad and I hope you and your bro-in-law can climb together again with your new found wisdom!!
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climbsomething
Aug 14, 2004, 7:16 AM
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In reply to: It sounds like the problem here was that the belayer was simply loosely holding the break end of the rope. You guys may be forgetting how fast a climber will hit the deck from 15 feet up. The belayer may hardly have a chance to catch the fall if hes only loosely holding the break. I think another lesson here, besides having a competant belayer, is that when you cant see your leader (or arent looking as is the case in point) you have your hand tightly clutched to the break, ,not just loosely holding it. Summary: loosely holding the break is one thing, CLUTCHING the break with some hand muscle is another, and the differencece is enough to stop a leader fall. |
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jules
Aug 14, 2004, 8:09 AM
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I see two really great points emphasized in this thread:
1) don't let someone who can't belay belay you
2) don't give advice if you don't know what you're talking about
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rock_junky
Aug 14, 2004, 9:17 AM
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That sucks man! Sorry to hear that. I'm glad to hear that nothing more serious than a broken foot resulted from it though. Get well soon!! :D
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climb_plastic
Aug 14, 2004, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: The more I think of it making my second use a grigri seems like a great idea. What do you think? I realize the grigri isn't a replacement for proper belaying, but it sounds like a great insurance policy.
Forget what the atc users here say and get a gri-gri if you feel safer because it is. Based on what you described happened, you hitting the ground and breaking your leg could have been prevented with a gri-gri.....and that's what matters the most.
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j_ung
Aug 14, 2004, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The more I think of it making my second use a grigri seems like a great idea. What do you think? I realize the grigri isn't a replacement for proper belaying, but it sounds like a great insurance policy. Forget what the atc users here say and get a gri-gri if you feel safer because it is. Based on what you described happened, you hitting the ground and breaking your leg could have been prevented with a gri-gri.....and that's what matters the most.
I think this is bad advice.
bbmass, yes, a gri-gri probably would have prevented your particular accident. But it would have left you open to accidents at other times. If your belayer is inexperienced, then a gri-gri has as much chance of screwing you as saving you, just like any belay device.
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markc
Aug 14, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: Forget what the atc users here say and get a gri-gri if you feel safer because it is. Based on what you described happened, you hitting the ground and breaking your leg could have been prevented with a gri-gri.....and that's what matters the most.
Any belay device that is not used as recommended can be unsafe. If someone can't master a tube-style belay device, I'll not trust them with a more complicated device. Providing a lead-belay with a Gri-Gri is a more advanced technique which could easily lead to the belayer short-roping or not catching the climber. You know what they say about making something idiot proof...
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kman
Aug 15, 2004, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: Forget what the atc users here say and get a gri-gri if you feel safer because it is. Based on what you described happened, you hitting the ground and breaking your leg could have been prevented with a gri-gri.....and that's what matters the most.
Go back to the gym where you belong plastic-puller. :evil:
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rendog
Aug 15, 2004, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: Go back to the gym where you belong plastic-puller. :evil:
wOOt
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climb_plastic
Aug 16, 2004, 4:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Forget what the atc users here say and get a gri-gri if you feel safer because it is. Based on what you described happened, you hitting the ground and breaking your leg could have been prevented with a gri-gri.....and that's what matters the most. Go back to the gym where you belong plastic-puller. :evil:
Fuck you dickhead!!!! :evil: :lol:
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climbingpride
Aug 16, 2004, 4:30 AM
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[quote="overlord"]ddint you tell him not to leave you from sight????
quote]
^ The true propper thing to do, but you can belay just as safe without your eyes on the climber. With leading there is a little more importance with keeping your eye on the climber. Don't look at me like i'm the only one.
Gri-gri's are nice, and I usually put newbies on mine. But everyone i've taken has gone atleast rappelling a number of times. But it does not take many belays for them to switch to the ATC.
MY DECKING STORY:
I was droped by a relitivly new climber, who new what he was doing, new how to control the rope, and had caught me a number of times before. But when i fell this time, luckily just after the first bolt, it pulled him at a slant into a boulder infront of him and he lost control. I was not hurt at all and actaully finished the climb after he switched his belaying positions.
But the best thing is to get a partner who's arm, even if their killed, will still be locked back. I know my current partner is and has proved it a few times. Once a flake broke and nailed his arm and he still held me.
my 2 cents
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jt512
Aug 16, 2004, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: I was droped by a relitivly new climber, who new what he was doing, new how to control the rope.... But when i fell this time, luckily just after the first bolt, it pulled him at a slant into a boulder infront of him and he lost control.
Your second sentence contradicts your first.
Also, you need to buy a few "k"s.
-Jay
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epic_ed
Aug 16, 2004, 4:39 AM
Post #42 of 55
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In reply to: Forget what the atc users here say and get a gri-gri if you feel safer because it is. Based on what you described happened, you hitting the ground and breaking your leg could have been prevented with a gri-gri.....and that's what matters the most.
Good to see you plastic climbers checking in with safe climbing tips for outdoor top roping. Excellent.
Gri gri's aren't safer than other types of belay devices. Competant belayers are the margin of safety you need to be concerned with.
Ed
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jt512
Aug 16, 2004, 5:50 PM
Post #43 of 55
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In reply to: Gri gri's aren't safer than other types of belay devices.
Ed, I have to disagree with you on that one. The problem with the grigri is that so many climbers fail to use it correctly. But, used correctly, a grigri adds a layer of safety to the system. Basically, if the belayer gets taken out by rockfall, or loses control of the belay for any other reason, with a grigri, you'll probably still be on belay; with an ATC, you won't be.
-Jay
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granitegod
Aug 16, 2004, 6:42 PM
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Leading a 5.4 and fell?
Well, you probably shouldn't be leading at all, in my opinion....
You seem to blame the belayer for not catching you, but don't describe the protection placed.....was it high enough to prevent you from decking had your belayer done his job?
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climb_plastic
Aug 16, 2004, 6:47 PM
Post #45 of 55
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In reply to: Good to see you plastic climbers checking in with safe climbing tips for outdoor top roping. Excellent. Gri gri's aren't safer than other types of belay devices. Competant belayers are the margin of safety you need to be concerned with.
FYI. If you have problems with a plastic climber who like gri-gri's, there are outdoor climbers that like gri-gri's too. I belay with both and am fully aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both.
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epic_ed
Aug 16, 2004, 6:58 PM
Post #46 of 55
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In reply to: In reply to: Gri gri's aren't safer than other types of belay devices. Ed, I have to disagree with you on that one. The problem with the grigri is that so many climbers fail to use it correctly. But, used correctly, a grigri adds a layer of safety to the system. Basically, if the belayer gets taken out by rockfall, or loses control of the belay for any other reason, with a grigri, you'll probably still be on belay; with an ATC, you won't be. -Jay
Regardless, I'd still rather have a competant belayer. You might still be on belay, but the fun then begins when dude attempts to lower you and yards back on the handle of the gri gri. In an attempt to slow you down, the inexperienced belayer just might keep pulling back on the handle. *bounce* ouch*
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jt512
Aug 16, 2004, 7:57 PM
Post #47 of 55
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Gri gri's aren't safer than other types of belay devices. Ed, I have to disagree with you on that one. The problem with the grigri is that so many climbers fail to use it correctly. But, used correctly, a grigri adds a layer of safety to the system. Basically, if the belayer gets taken out by rockfall, or loses control of the belay for any other reason, with a grigri, you'll probably still be on belay; with an ATC, you won't be. -Jay Regardless, I'd still rather have a competant belayer.
I'd rather have a competent belayer using an ATC than an incompetent belayer using a grigri, but I'd rather have a competent belayer using a grigri than a competent belayer using an ATC.
In reply to: You might still be on belay, but the fun then begins when dude attempts to lower you and yards back on the handle of the gri gri. In an attempt to slow you down, the inexperienced belayer just might keep pulling back on the handle. *bounce* ouch*
That's a matter of competency with the grigri, not experience per se. A properly trained belayer knows how to lower with a grigri. You could just as easily argue that an incompetent belayer with an ATC might let go.
-Jay
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reno
Aug 16, 2004, 8:17 PM
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[mod]
A general and all-encompassing reminder about profanity, personal attacks, etc.
Discuss all you want, but please keep it professional and mature.
Thank you.
[/mod]
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mayak
Aug 16, 2004, 9:31 PM
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what about the petzl reverso? i'm a new-b and haven't used it but a friend was showing me how you'd belay a lead climber and it looked like a relatively safe, solid method to belay from below... though i've never used it myself
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taino
Aug 16, 2004, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: what about the petzl reverso? i'm a new-b and haven't used it but a friend was showing me how you'd belay a lead climber and it looked like a relatively safe, solid method to belay from below... though i've never used it myself
I use the Reverso regularly when leading and swinging leads. If I'm strictly following, I use an ATC.
The Petzl Reverso is essentially another tube-style belay device, similar to the Black Diamond ATC, the Trango Jaws, the Trango Pyramid, etc. You can certainly use it for lead-belaying, but IMHO it doesn't feed as smoothly as a standard ATC.
The area where the Reverso shines is when you're leading, and you 1) bring up two seconds at the same time, or 2) have to build an anchor in one place, and sit in another out of easy reach. You can set up the Reverso to automatically lock the rope; if you're bringing up two seconds, you can control each rope individually. Very, very handy.
The Reverso can also be used as a rappel device, handling two ropes. Lastly, it can also be used - as a last resort - as an ascender.
Cheers,
T
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