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robreglinski


Aug 20, 2004, 3:07 AM
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death knot or not?
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ok,

I came off a monster route (for Scotland :roll: ) recently coz the weather came in and we abseiled 5 pitches of 150'.

I used a triple fisherman’s to join the lines (we climb on doubles in the UK) and it was a git to get undone (we all know this get on with it rob).

my question is if i used a thief knot in-between the apposing knots of the double fisherman’s (effectively sandwiching a thief know between two triple stoppers) would I end up dead :(

This knot is a lot easier to undo (I know I bounced it).
I’ve tried other methods of joining lines before and the evidence is here for support of the use of the use of the fisherman’s

http://www.needlesports.com/advice/abseilknots.htm

what do you think of this idea?
Ta

rob
:wink:


qwert


Aug 20, 2004, 4:21 AM
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first: what is a thief knot?

I dont know how it is on the strange island you are living on, or the strange continent this site origins from, but in germany the overhand knot is considered as the best method for joining ropes (officially!).
The double fisherman shurely works, and is really strong, but how much safety is left if you have a superstrong rappel knot, but get caught by a thunderstorm because your rope gets stuck in 10 of 12 rappel lengths?
The overhand can and will of course also get stuck, but this is not that likely than it is with a double fisherman.
There of course is the issue that the overhand knot moves along the rope, when the rope is vibrating, but this can be easily avoided by using two overhands atop each other, or by tying stopper knots in the tails.
These methods work, but they do increase the chance that it will get stuck. It is still better than with a double fisherman of course, but it nevertheless sucks.
Here is what i do: In "normal" rappeling situations, i just use a simple overhand with long tails and pull it really thight, and try to avoid bouncing when rappeling (also good for the anchor). With tis i have never senn my knot move more than a few mm`s, and had never real trouble untiying it.
Im not quite shure if this is the "official" method, or if it is advised to use two knots.

The situation might be different if you are using lines of different diametres or are setting up fixed lines for jugging.
With the first i have heard about the pulling issue being much more likely to occur, making the overhand unsafer in this situation. I have rapped on a 8.1 and a 10.5 joined with a single overhand, and havend noticed any pulling (left extra long tails for safety), but you might whant to reswearch further on this topic.
In the second situation there will definitely occur some or even a lot (aka to much) pulling, since the rope (and so the knot) is getting bounced with every jug you are doing. For this situation i would get away rom the overhand to the double overhand, or the fisherman.

Joining ropes via figure 8 is very unsafe (as i have heard) since it is much more likely to pull. (And also it it more likely to get stuck, so forget about that)

qwert


Partner justin


Aug 20, 2004, 4:31 AM
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Use an overhand knot- it's fine, I rapped of loads with one, also using doubles, and it's the knot for the job. Don't rap off the tails- you wouldn't be the first.


clip


Aug 20, 2004, 4:32 AM
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Overhands the quickest and best as it lies flat an tends not to catch when pulled (or no more than other knots. If you so keen on the double fisherman you can drop a reef knot in the middle so you dont load the double fisherman and therefore very quick to undo and you keep the reassurance of a chunky knot!


hex


Aug 20, 2004, 4:56 AM
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In reply to:
first: what is a thief knot?

I assume he means a reef knot with a stopper knot on each side, essentially a double fishermans with a reef knot in the middle. I have seen this used before.


robreglinski


Aug 20, 2004, 5:03 AM
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In reply to:
Overhands the quickest and best as it lies flat an tends not to catch when pulled
the problem with overhand knot is ive seen it slip up the rope under tension :shock: :shock: :shock: (rope was wet) like it said in the web site above the double overhand is well better

"Anyway, back on planet Earth, whilst both the Figure of Eight and the Overhand slipped considerably under pressure, the Double Overhand did less so"

what knot are u talking about here single or double?

the fishermans has never failed on me (im still here)
rob


robreglinski


Aug 20, 2004, 5:11 AM
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nope theif knot

its very similar to the reef knot

http://www.scoutxing.com/...not/thieves_knot.htm

the good thing about it is it slips so its dosnt jam up but the stoppers on either end prevent the knot from undoing.

ok crap on its own youll die instantly but when its mixed with a fisherman's then youv'e got a fisherman's that dosnt jam up with a twist in the middle. the theif knot is not the min link its just preventing the stoppers from clinching tight on themselfs

do you think this is safe :? or am i being an ****wit

ive got my fire blanket ready :twisted:


jakedatc


Aug 20, 2004, 5:38 AM
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sound's like a waste of time and leaves too much risk in the equation... use a single or double overhand (Edk) and call it good.. simple fast and strong... why risk putting a knot that will fail in the mix?


dredsovrn


Aug 20, 2004, 5:43 AM
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I don't know what a thief knot is, but an overhand with a back up on one side and 8" tails works well and isn't bad to untie. Neither is an eight, but some tests have shown the overhand to be stronger. For a really easy one, use a fishermans square knot. Essentially a square knot with a fishermans on either side. The fishermans keep the square knot from coming untied, when rapping, but the fishermans don't get super tight when weighted in this situation. Then the square comes out easy (which is why you want to back it up with a fishermans on each side). It's a bit of a bulky knot, but for untying ease, it is very good.


dalguard


Aug 20, 2004, 6:09 AM
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A thief's knot appears to be what we call a square knot.

Over on r.c, we call a square knot backed with half a double fisherman's on each side the Boy Scout Death Knot (BSDK). With the other knot in the middle, the halves of the double fisherman's don't tighten against each other the way they do unimpeded, so, no, it's not as safe as a real double fisherman's. Think how often the backup knot you tie above your F-8 comes untied. It's the same knot.

The plain old EDK is better in all ways.


robreglinski


Aug 20, 2004, 6:11 AM
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cool thats what i was looking for thanks.

glad i didnt try it :oops:

rob


ben87


Aug 20, 2004, 7:00 AM
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why not just use a figure 8?


sarcat


Aug 20, 2004, 7:21 AM
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thief knot = "granny" knot
reef knot = square knot

There is a distint difference.

Question:

If you do the overhand then a second overhad right up to it wouldn't the second keep the first from "rolling" like it needs to to reduce slipping?

For now personnally I'll use the double fishermans and fight with the untieing issue.


robmcc


Aug 20, 2004, 8:08 AM
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In reply to:
thief knot = "granny" knot
reef knot = square knot

Not according to that picture. The "thief" not was unquestionably a square not.

I'm no boy scout, but I can tell a granny knot from a square knot. ;)

Rob


ben87


Aug 20, 2004, 8:11 AM
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isn't retracing a figure-8 way better? why use an overhand?


neutralcypruss


Aug 20, 2004, 8:14 AM
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http://www.realknots.com/knots/sheetb.htm
would not the carricks bend backed up by two fishermans not
trully be the best in this instace no matter how tight it gets it is easy to undo and is considered to be the only true bend and once it is dressed it is unlikely to slip. :twisted:


csoles


Aug 20, 2004, 8:33 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
thief knot = "granny" knot

Not according to that picture. The "thief" not was unquestionably a square not.

Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing. You are both wrong. Next contestant.

To the OP, forget using a backed up thief. Stick with the offset overhand bend (EDK) or a figure-9 bend.


Partner j_ung


Aug 20, 2004, 9:30 AM
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Thief knots, granny knots and square knots are three different things. I think you all know what granny and square knots are, but the thief knot is pretty obscure. It's designed to look like a square knot, without actually being one. Note the differences:

Thief knot:
http://images.google.com/...ng.com/knots/thieves

Square knot (sorry about the size):
http://biocomp.stanford.edu/...KnotImages/knot3.gif

In the thief knot, one running end comes out from the bottom of the knot and one from the top. In the square knot both running ends come from either the top or the bottom, but always the same.

The way I heard it, the theif knot is supposed to look like a square knot, without actually being one. Old-timey merchants tied their goods up with a square knot. Then, if they ever suspected that an employee was stealing from them, they switched to a thief knot. After switching, if they found their goods tied with a square, they knew for a fact that someone was stealing.

The other big difference is that a thief knot releases completely at far less than body weight. :shock:


sarcat


Aug 20, 2004, 9:50 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
thief knot = "granny" knot
reef knot = square knot

Not according to that picture. The "thief" not was unquestionably a square not.

I'm no boy scout, but I can tell a granny knot from a square knot. ;)

Rob

Maybe I saw it wrong. Then:

reef knot = "granny" knot
thief knot = square knot

Actually j_ung's pic. shows what I thought was a sheep-bend (sheet-bend?). No???http://images.google.com/...ng.com/knots/thieves


Partner j_ung


Aug 20, 2004, 10:03 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
thief knot = "granny" knot
reef knot = square knot

Not according to that picture. The "thief" not was unquestionably a square not.

I'm no boy scout, but I can tell a granny knot from a square knot. ;)

Rob

Maybe I saw it wrong. Then:

reef knot = "granny" knot
thief knot = square knot

Actually j_ung's pic. shows what I thought was a sheep-bend (sheet-bend?). No???http://images.google.com/...ng.com/knots/thieves

You fools! :P

They're all differnt knots, and the thief knot isn't meant to hold anything. It's a parlor trick.


csoles


Aug 20, 2004, 10:04 AM
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In reply to:
Maybe I saw it wrong. Then:

reef knot = "granny" knot
thief knot = square knot

Still wrong. You seriusly need a good outdoor knots book.


sarcat


Aug 20, 2004, 10:06 AM
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Then I'll state it the right way for all who care:

Granny knot = "granny knot"
Square knot = square knot

Other than that who the hell cares?


Partner j_ung


Aug 20, 2004, 10:09 AM
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In reply to:
Then I'll state it the right way for all who care:

Granny knot = "granny knot"
Square knot = square knot

Other than that who the hell cares?

I'll take the Fifth.


sarcat


Aug 20, 2004, 10:18 AM
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I'll add:

Double fishermans' knot = double fishermans' knot
Tripple fisherman's knot = triple fishermans' knot
Over hand knot = over hand knot
Figure 8 knot = figure 8 knot
Butterfly knot = butterfly knot
Clove hitch = clove hitch
Munter hitch = munter hitch
Water knot = water knot

If you don't know how to tie all the above you shold learn and if you want to call them anything different then YOU better know that your climbing partners know what the !@#$! you're talking about (end small rant).


dynosore


Aug 20, 2004, 10:24 AM
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In a book o' knots I have at home their is a "simple simon" knot, that I found is easy to untie after loading, and doesn't seem to slip at all. Oh yeah, it's simple too :? If I remember right it was developed by a Canadian climber. Anyone hear of it, is their a reason it isn't used?

PS I'm heading off for my first weekend on real rock, anyone ever take a class at N. of Superior climbing?

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