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ricardol
Sep 1, 2004, 3:14 PM
Post #26 of 34
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
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In reply to: granted i am not a metallurgist, but the idea that a biner that is dropped should be tossed away seems a little silly. has anyone ever heard of any instance where an accident has actually been caused by a biner breaking(properly used -- i dont mean where someone forgot to lock it or something like that) ?
.. i can think of at least 1 accident where carabiners broke .. (Goran Kropp on Air Guitar).
.. though i dont think that any dropped carabiner shjould be replaced .. inspect, then decide.
-- ricardo
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pjcozzi
Sep 1, 2004, 3:15 PM
Post #27 of 34
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Registered: Sep 19, 2003
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The biner may or not be ok but why risk it. You should use the biner for other stuff like your chalk bag or racking cams, nuts, etc. Just put a piece of tape or something around it so you know it’s one you dropped.
Pat.
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benelsie
Sep 1, 2004, 3:49 PM
Post #28 of 34
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Registered: Sep 1, 2004
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I have found three carabiners on my rack that were cracked. Inspection of friends' racks have uncovered 2 or 3 more.
All carabiners are Chouinard or Black Diamond Light D's of the early 90's vintage. The cracks are always in the aluminum near the steel press pin on the gate, either at the hinged end, or at the open gate end.
I called BD and spoke to an engineer about the discovery. I was told that htis was an issue with the material used during that era, and that the failure was due to "stress corrosion cracking". There has been much debate about the metallurgy and chemistry behind this phenomenon, but the bottom line is...if you have any light d's, check them carefully and regularly for cracking.
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verticallaw
Sep 1, 2004, 4:05 PM
Post #29 of 34
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Registered: Mar 21, 2002
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A now ex partner droped about 6 of my draws on pitch 6 of a slab route. The darn things slid right past me at the station (try as I did I could not catch them :cry: ) I found them at the bottom in a bush. After carefull inspection and a die test (got some funky die from a old school trad guy I know) they where indeed O.K. :lol: . I still am suspect of them and only use them in spots where the chances of a fall are minimal but I still use them. but thats just my gear..... maybe it's time to use them on screamer setups.. If I can find the name of the die I used and where to find it i will post it up.
good luck man
dropped gear is one of the few things that makes me cry
Mike
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petsfed
Sep 1, 2004, 4:19 PM
Post #30 of 34
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Registered: Sep 25, 2002
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In reply to: In reply to: granted i am not a metallurgist, but the idea that a biner that is dropped should be tossed away seems a little silly. has anyone ever heard of any instance where an accident has actually been caused by a biner breaking(properly used -- i dont mean where someone forgot to lock it or something like that) ? .. i can think of at least 1 accident where carabiners broke .. (Goran Kropp on Air Guitar). .. though i dont think that any dropped carabiner shjould be replaced .. inspect, then decide. -- ricardo
Near as anyone can tell, the broken carabiner in Kropp's fall stemmed from loading it in the open gate configuration. That's improper usage. When closed, loaded only on the major axis (no cross loading or loading over an edge), and used with the proper equipment (dynamic climbing line, solid protection, good belay) carabiners don't break. Since the UIAA insists that no climbing rope has a peak force greater than 12kn on either end, its a simple impossibility. Let me walk you through this. The peak force (ignoring friction) on a carabiner will be the sum of the tensions on either strand of rope coming from a carabiner. In a perfect, friction free world, that's precisely double the peak force on one strand of the rope (pulley effects). With that in mind, the peak force on a carabiner can be at most 24kn. However, due to friction, this gets closer to one and a half (1.6 is the accepted number, but it varies based on carabiner model), so the peak force on a carabiner will be closer to 20kn. For comparison's sake, 22kn is 2.5 tons. 1 ton is enough to break your back. So in a situation where a carabiner will break when loaded correctly, the carabiner breaking should be the least of your worries.
As to the microfracture issue, as said before, the aluminum used in most carabiners is not crystallized in the forging process. It doesn't crack. Rather, if it does, it will be very visible. Be wary of physical deformities, poor gate operation, and things of that nature. But don't throw away a perfectly good carabiner because you got butter fingers ten feet off the deck.
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ricardol
Sep 1, 2004, 6:05 PM
Post #31 of 34
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
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true .. kropp's carabiner did break due to gate flutter .. (at least thats what the investigators concluded) ..
.. how about mrhardgrits locking biner break on el capitan .. most likely due to crossloading .. but you can't really say he was not using the carabiner correctly ... it was on his belay loop .. crossloading happens .. just like gate flutter happens ..
.. my point is .. gear fails sometimes .. changes are VERY small (pilot error is more likely)... but it does .. be ready for the whole kit-n-kaboodle to come crashing down sometimes. -- (its a point i like to think about when i'm on a hanging gear belay.. what if?? -- what if i screwed up this anchor, and i'm looking at my last few seconds of life.. fun stuff)
-- ricardo
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talons05
Sep 1, 2004, 7:56 PM
Post #32 of 34
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Registered: Aug 23, 2001
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Ok, granted I was still in gradeschool in the early 90s, but why do you people have decade-old gear on your racks? I know it's expensive, but that's asking a little much to trust equipment that has surely been exposed to massive amounts of sunlight, stress, and just plain old age... I'd be surprised if one DIDN'T crack.
A.W.
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mattm
Sep 1, 2004, 10:23 PM
Post #33 of 34
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Registered: May 20, 2003
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In reply to: In reply to: granted i am not a metallurgist, but the idea that a biner that is dropped should be tossed away seems a little silly. has anyone ever heard of any instance where an accident has actually been caused by a biner breaking(properly used -- i dont mean where someone forgot to lock it or something like that) ? .. i can think of at least 1 accident where carabiners broke .. (Goran Kropp on Air Guitar). .. though i dont think that any dropped carabiner shjould be replaced .. inspect, then decide. -- ricardo
Pretty sure the Kropp accident was due to open gate loading - it was in AINAM
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dutyje
Sep 1, 2004, 10:35 PM
Post #34 of 34
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Registered: Apr 1, 2004
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A few weeks ago, I dropped my cell phone 60 feet onto rock. After my partners retrieved the battery and the phone that had come apart and shot into the woods, we assembled it all and the phone works just fine. Nothing is broken, although there are some obvious nicks/scratches.
The point here is that a cell phone is not built to withstand the rigors of a climbing carabiner, and it's capable of surviving a 60-footer. I'd trust any carabiner that fell 50 feet or less, unless it showed visible damage, particularly scarring on a rope-bearing surface. I'd also retire it if the gate operation was anything less than perfect, because that's an obvious sign of deformity in the biner.
The best thing to do is not drop stuff. And as others have mentioned, if you have any doubt in your gear, it will seriously affect your ability to climb when you need to trust it. As always, on these more dangerous topics, read the disclaimer in my sig line.
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