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mccarthykm
Sep 14, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Military Draft - What would You Do? (Climbers Be Warned!)
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I orriginally posted this as "Climbers Be Warned!" The initial goal was to inform everyone on the status of the military Draft. Now my second goal is to find out what your situation and opinion is on possibly being drafted yourself or a loved one being drafted.
The orriginal post follows:
There has been talk about Selective Service System (SSS) to reinstate the draft, and the talk is turning into reality!!!!!
I am posting this because I know that a good majority of climbers are age 18 to 26. I am not going into my personal political oppinion, but I feel it necessary for those possibly affected by this to be informed. I have attempted for this to be an unbiased post, but in reality that is impossible. So do your own research, and form your own oppinion, and I have attempted to identify the key points of this issue involving every family in this country...... climbers included.
I have found three sites that identify what is to happen. You will have to sift through a bit of biased opinion on the sites, but here is a summary of upcomming events:
http://www.congress.org/...&letter_id=105483596
http://usmilitary.about.com/.../milinfo/bldraft.htm
http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/105146.php
1. There is "pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills: S 89 and HR 163) which will time the program's initiation so the draft can begin at early as Spring 2005" (Congress.org)
2. "$28 million has been added to the 2004 Selective Service System (SSS) budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005" (Congress.org)
3. "these bills provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes" (Congress.org)
4. "College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the US signed a "Smart Border Declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in" (vancouver.indymedia.org)
5. "Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their cur-rent semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year" (vancouver.indymedia.org)
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scottcody
Sep 14, 2004, 2:56 PM
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edited to reflect the sprit of the new title.... :)
I would sign up, whether or not I was chosen. If the Uncle Sam decided that he needed people that much, I would volunteer before being drafted.
Consider it a job without having to apply... :)
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j_ung
Sep 14, 2004, 5:01 PM
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I'm not either of you know what you're talking about. These two bills have been sitting in committee all year long. BTW, both are sponsored exclusively by Democrats.
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mccarthykm
Sep 14, 2004, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: I'm not either of you know what you're talking about. These two bills have been sitting in committee all year long. BTW, both are sponsored exclusively by Democrats.
Yeah, I know they have been sitting and as far as who is exclusively sponsering, I don't know. The point of this post is alert the climbing community (many of which are in the target age group), not an attempt to sway votes. Honestly, I think that the Draft will happen no matter who ends up winning the election.
Also, this topic has been popping up in pieces ever since the Iraq war started, but rarely reaching front page headlines. So it is up to the individual to inform themselves.
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boz84
Sep 14, 2004, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: I'm not either of you know what you're talking about. These two bills have been sitting in committee all year long. BTW, both are sponsored exclusively by Democrats.
Some of the legislation currently being worked over is sponsered most heavily by a democrat and a republican.
Being that I'm 20, Im first to get picked if it happens, over any other age, and frankly, I dont see it as good, or bad.
On the good side:
Ill be travelling the world, getting training and life skills, and see things that I would never otherwise experience. Since experience is our only teacher, I see it as a great learning experience.
On the bad:
Well, Id be in the military, possibly in an area where Ill see live fire. Not many people look forward to that possibility, but if it happens, thats the way of things.
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robmcc
Sep 14, 2004, 6:55 PM
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As far as the good side goes, volunteer.
I oppose conscription unless there's a pressing need. There isn't.
Rob
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boz84
Sep 14, 2004, 7:07 PM
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Volunteer?
Um. No.
Why do I say this with unwavering uncertainty?
Because as of now I have a good life, I work hard, go to school, and unless my number is up, as it were, to serve my country, I have other options currently, to keep things how they are.
But, should it happen, Im ready and willing to do what I can.
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boadman
Sep 14, 2004, 7:38 PM
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I'm not willing, if I'm drafted I'll leave the country. Why should anyone be able to decide whether or not I have to go kill people? Or, if I was a concientious objector, quit what I'm doing and go watch other people get killed? No one has the moral right to make me do anything. If I got drafted and was somehow forced to go to war, I would kill the first officer that gave me an order I didn't like. We all make decisions, if everyone refused to fight, there would be no war. I have no confidence in the current administration's, or any administration for that matter, ability to make life and death decisions for me or anyone else.
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robmcc
Sep 14, 2004, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: No one has the moral right to make me do anything.
In reply to: If I got drafted and was somehow forced to go to war, I would kill the first officer that gave me an order I didn't like.
You have absolutely no qualification to speak about moral rights if that's the way you look at the world.
Rob
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g
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Sep 14, 2004, 8:10 PM
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General, your tank is a powerful vehicle.
It smashes down forests and crushes a hundred men.
But it has one defect:
It needs a driver.
General, your bomber is powerful.
It flies faster than a storm and carries more than an elephant.
But it has one defect:
It needs a mechanic.
General, man is very useful.
He can fly and he can kill.
But he has one defect:
He can think.
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bumblie
Sep 14, 2004, 8:14 PM
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I remember when Carter reinstated registry for the draft. Way to go Jimmy.
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bumblie
Sep 14, 2004, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: I'm not willing, if I'm drafted I'll leave the country. Why should anyone be able to decide whether or not I have to go kill people? Or, if I was a concientious objector, quit what I'm doing and go watch other people get killed? No one has the moral right to make me do anything. If I got drafted and was somehow forced to go to war, I would kill the first officer that gave me an order I didn't like. We all make decisions, if everyone refused to fight, there would be no war. I have no confidence in the current administration's, or any administration for that matter, ability to make life and death decisions for me or anyone else.
Your understanding of our history and your level of gratitude are quite impressive.
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spiderwomann
Sep 14, 2004, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: I would kill the first officer that gave me an order I didn't like.
broadman, I too would not agree to serve in the military if drafted, because I am morally oppossed to killing others and would not be willing to support the US governement in a campaign that would lead to the deaths of others. However, I disagree with your above statement. If you are unwilling to kill the "enemy" (granted the "enemy" is defined by the US government and may or not truly be a threat), why would you be willing to kill an officer? That would be needless violence, something that would and could not solve anything.
peace,
Taylor
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robmcc
Sep 14, 2004, 8:30 PM
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The problem with blanket opposition to war is that it's often hard to get the other side to play along. Quite often you have to deal with this problem that people are taking things from you, or harming you or your loved ones, or killing people.
Pacificism taken to its extreme is a problem that solves itself. The bad guys kill you.
Rob
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scottcody
Sep 14, 2004, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm not willing, if I'm drafted I'll leave the country. Why should anyone be able to decide whether or not I have to go kill people? Or, if I was a concientious objector, quit what I'm doing and go watch other people get killed? No one has the moral right to make me do anything. If I got drafted and was somehow forced to go to war, I would kill the first officer that gave me an order I didn't like. We all make decisions, if everyone refused to fight, there would be no war. I have no confidence in the current administration's, or any administration for that matter, ability to make life and death decisions for me or anyone else. Your understanding of our history and your level of gratitude are quite impressive. |
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thegreytradster
Sep 14, 2004, 8:50 PM
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It ain't gonna' happen!
Reenlistment rates in the Army and Marines are as high as they have ever been. Interestingly rates are highest among front line combat units that have seen action. (seems they believe in what they are doing!)
The Navy and Air Force can't get people to leave. Both will soon be as competitive as a top name college to get into for the next few years.
Reserve and Guard units are having a problem. Many signed up for free money and a once a year camping trip and didn't exepect to actualy have to do what the contract said. That problem wouldn't be solved by a draft. The overextension of reserve forces will only be solved by some force restructuring.
All the talk of a renewed draft is just Charlie Rangel demogouging the issue. Truth is they don't want your sorry a$$ unless you want to be there.
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euroford
Sep 14, 2004, 9:08 PM
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a couple of points from the euroford point of view
- well, i guess i'm to old
- i'm kinda busy over here doing important stuff, so hopefully i can just keep at that
- i don't think its going to happen anyways
- if they really need me to go fight for my country, count me in
- boadman, yer a wimp. take take take all the freedom you can get, when ya gotta fight for it, see ya!
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superdiamonddave
Sep 14, 2004, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: It ain't gonna' happen! Reenlistment rates in the Army and Marines are as high as they have ever been. Interestingly rates are highest among front line combat units that have seen action. (seems they believe in what they are doing!) The Navy and Air Force can't get people to leave. Both will soon be as competitive as a top name college to get into for the next few years. Reserve and Guard units are having a problem. Many signed up for free money and a once a year camping trip and didn't exepect to actualy have to do what the contract said. That problem wouldn't be solved by a draft. The overextension of reserve forces will only be solved by some force restructuring. All the talk of a renewed draft is just Charlie Rangel demogouging the issue. Truth is they don't want your sorry a$$ unless you want to be there.
Not all Guardsmen fall into the catagory you described. While it's true that some do it for the free college tuition and then leave upon their enlistment expiring, many such as myself stay for many, many years. I am on my 4th enlistment and when it is done it will put me over my 20 years needed to retire.
Many of us Guardsmen actually take on these deployments with great pride in knowing that we will finally get to be put to real use in these trying times. Our training, in some cases, is not as good as our active duty counterparts, (you can only do so much training in a one weekend a month program), but our will to fight for our Country is just as strong as ever.
Let me say this, I don't just sit back and wait to see if I will get picked for a deployment. I volunteer. I have served in Operation Desert Storm, Operation Provide Promise, and more recently OIF/OEF. Tradional Guardsmen, like our Active Duty counterparts are still a volunteer Force. Nobody made me enlist and quite frankly, I don't want to serve with a person that is forced to enlist. Too much bad MOJO.
I'm not an officer, but I still don't want some jerk shooting me or those appointed above me because he/she doesn't want to serve.
Boadman,
Grow up and quit taking freedom for granted. Do your part, or at least thank a vet. And please stay in Boulder in your happy, safe little world.
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thegreytradster
Sep 14, 2004, 9:51 PM
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My bad! should have said "some" rather than "many" The reserves and guard are the only groups that do have recruiting shortfalls though, and they are over worked particularly in some specialties. Still, the draft isn't coming back.
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dr_feelgood
Sep 14, 2004, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: I'm not willing, if I'm drafted I'll leave the country. Why should anyone be able to decide whether or not I have to go kill people? Or, if I was a concientious objector, quit what I'm doing and go watch other people get killed? No one has the moral right to make me do anything. If I got drafted and was somehow forced to go to war, I would kill the first officer that gave me an order I didn't like. We all make decisions, if everyone refused to fight, there would be no war. I have no confidence in the current administration's, or any administration for that matter, ability to make life and death decisions for me or anyone else.
I am really glad you appreciate the freedom we guarantee. Please, run you mouth a bit more and critisize my profession. Thank you oh so much for disrespecting the people that have fallen to give you the right to choose. Please find a high place and throw yourself off of it. I guard that right too.
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danooguy
Sep 15, 2004, 12:53 AM
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boadman, you must be mighty young and full of piss and vinegar. That's okay. Its just a phase you're going through. But stay that way as long as you can. The world will kick your teeth in soon enough. Thus will end the phase of flowers and rainbows and puppy dog tails.
In reply to: We all make decisions, if everyone refused to fight, there would be no war.
If only life could be so simple.
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jono
Sep 15, 2004, 1:48 AM
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meh..if it happens it happens. i was probably going to join anyway so i dont care one way or another.
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tgreene
Sep 15, 2004, 2:00 AM
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I'm too old to join at this point and could never pass a physical in a million years anymore, but if I could, I would be there in a minute... as a counter-sniper!
I would also have Les Baer personally build this particular rifle for me! 8^)
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flying_dutchman
Sep 15, 2004, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: could never pass a physical in a million years anymore
one of those things you wouldn't expect a climber to say
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petsfed
Sep 15, 2004, 3:21 AM
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I sincerely doubt I have the ... perspective necessary to be an effective combat soldier. Be that as it may, if it comes down between being drafted, fleeing to a non-extradition country, or enlisting, I'll take the middle. I cannot fathom killing another human being anymore than I can handle the idea of my cowardice costing my comrades' lives.
I cannot speak for others, but I've seen what it is that causes one to kill. And I hope I die before I see it in myself again.
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