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musicman
Sep 20, 2004, 1:03 AM
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i was reading somewhere about attaching your belay device to your harness with a sling when your rappeling, i never understood why? whats the point of having it a couple feet above you?
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tgreene
Sep 20, 2004, 1:12 AM
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Makes it easier to get your hair caught in it that way... :wink:
I've never heard of such a thing, and feel that it would negate the reinforced belay loop that's been sewn into your harness!
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dutyje
Sep 20, 2004, 1:14 AM
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The most important reason is that, if you keep your backup knot below the belay device (as in the Klemheist or Autoblock), your knot won't get caught in your rappel device. Another oft-cited reason is that it prevents long hair (a la Fabio) or baggy clothing (a la Snoop Dogg) from getting caught in the device, although I haven't seen this as much of a problem.
It's also nice, as I have noticed, to stack your guide hand and brake hand, both below the device. I feel this gives me better control, although I'm sure pretty much everybody else would disagree.
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petsfed
Sep 20, 2004, 1:15 AM
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Makes it easier to attach an autoblock and gives you a better angle to lock off with. Do not, however, use more than a 24" sling to attach said belay device. It could lock off out of your reach, leaving you hanging, which is awkward at best.
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kaczoron
Sep 20, 2004, 1:28 AM
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Its good to have a device extened on a sling if you intened to pass a knot. If you have a second device you cab bring the knot up high, lock your first device, attatch a second device below the knot, lock it off, unlock an remove the first device then begin lowering off the second one. There is more involved than that but thats the basic idea.
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musicman
Sep 20, 2004, 2:02 AM
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so, basically, it is just so you can place an auto-block under the device, makes sence :idea: . thanks!
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slobmonster
Sep 20, 2004, 2:29 AM
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Lots of good reasons:
-farther away from you, easier to control;
-higher center of gravity, so you won't tip backwards if wearing a pack;
-serves as your tether to the next anchor you come to;
-and, as mentioned, your b/u knot is easier to manage.
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timstich
Sep 22, 2004, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: ... -higher center of gravity, so you won't tip backwards if wearing a pack.
This does nothing for your center of gravity, since the pivot point is still your harness attachement. Put your pack on a tether and attach it to the bottom of your rappelling carabiner.
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musicman
Sep 22, 2004, 3:36 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ... -higher center of gravity, so you won't tip backwards if wearing a pack. This does nothing for your center of gravity, since the pivot point is still your harness attachement. Put your pack on a tether and attach it to the bottom of your rappelling carabiner.
do you mean so that your pack hangs between your legs? at first thought that seemed really awkward but the more i think about it the better it sounds. I may have to try this whole set up sometime, just to see how the higher device feels.
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philbox
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Sep 22, 2004, 5:17 AM
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I really like this setup when conducting rescue training. I attach a sling and belay device to my belay loop so that the belay device is at the top of the sling on the rope. I am now as swinging well below my belay device. When I get to the "victim" I will introduce a muenter hitch at my belay loop to increse the friction in the system. Note that I also have an autoblock on my leg loop at all times so that I can work without having to attend the rope with one of my hands as a backup.
I will attach the "victim" to the top belay device by way of another sling of a length depending on where I wish him to be suspended in relation to me. This way I have complete freedom to push away from him/her and I don`t get my nads crushed in the process. I can easily control any sort of load and indeed I am free to take my hands off the rope to attend to the "victim".
That said most times on one pitch rotues after a climb I will simply rap with the device on my belay loop with no backup.
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squish
Sep 22, 2004, 7:21 AM
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In reply to: I may have to try this whole set up sometime, just to see how the higher device feels.
You don't need to extend your belay device to hang a pack from your harness. The two are independent techniques.
Also, it only makes sense to dangle the pack if it's actually heavy enough to tip you over (or when climbing chimneys). The rest of the time it's much less annoying to just keep it on your back.
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timstich
Sep 22, 2004, 1:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ... -higher center of gravity, so you won't tip backwards if wearing a pack. This does nothing for your center of gravity, since the pivot point is still your harness attachement. Put your pack on a tether and attach it to the bottom of your rappelling carabiner. do you mean so that your pack hangs between your legs? at first thought that seemed really awkward but the more i think about it the better it sounds. I may have to try this whole set up sometime, just to see how the higher device feels.
The pack doesn't necessarily hang right in between your legs. The length of your tether will determine that. I like my pack to be right about at my ankles, so I can still maneuver it by hand when it gets hung up but it still is free from my legs on straight drops.
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imnotclever
Sep 22, 2004, 2:36 PM
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In reply to: I really like this setup when conducting rescue training. I attach a sling and belay device to my belay loop so that the belay device is at the top of the sling on the rope. I am now as swinging well below my belay device. When I get to the "victim" I will introduce a muenter hitch at my belay loop to increse the friction in the system. Note that I also have an autoblock on my leg loop at all times so that I can work without having to attend the rope with one of my hands as a backup. I will attach the "victim" to the top belay device by way of another sling of a length depending on where I wish him to be suspended in relation to me. This way I have complete freedom to push away from him/her and I don`t get my nads crushed in the process. I can easily control any sort of load and indeed I am free to take my hands off the rope to attend to the "victim". That said most times on one pitch rotues after a climb I will simply rap with the device on my belay loop with no backup.
So Phil, when you are at the victim, the rope goes through the belay device - which is on the sling- to a munter on a locker at the donut, to the autoblock. Hmm, I'll have to try that to see what effect the munter has. Do you keep the munter on as you keep desending with the victim?
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scrapedape
Sep 22, 2004, 2:42 PM
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I've also heard the explantion offered that it keeps hot metal off your harness and on a sling, which you can replace cheaper than your whole harness. Combinations of long raps, hot weather, and a fat arse can make your biner and rappel device smokin hot. How hot? I don't know. Too hot to touch. Is that enough to damage your harness? Maybe. But then it would probably damage your rope too, wouldn't it? But then again your rope isn't in constant contact with the hot part - it's constantly sliding past so no one part heats up too much - and if you stop in mid-rap, well then the device starts to cool down a bit, right?
I have no idea if heat has a cumulative effect on nylon, or if the supposed problem is that it could just melt right through if it gets too hot. If it's the latter, you're screwed whether it's on your belay loop or a sling, right? However certain sling materials - I'm thinking specifically of Spectra here - have low melting points. Spectra's melting point is about 100F below that of nylon. Of course, melting point does not necessarily correlate with the max usable temperature, but it's a good place to start. So a Spectra sling might be a problem (?)
So there's one more consideration. I'm not sure how important it is, but I'm just trying to stimulate discussion on the topic. And in the meantime, if I'm extending my rappel device off my harness, I'm going to avoid Spectra slings for the purpose.
Anyone have any good information on the whole heat issue?
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chugach001
Sep 22, 2004, 2:51 PM
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I had wondered that as well. This is the best reason I've found - when rapping with a rookie, I want to go first (to clear ropes, belay them and set up the next station). The problem was trusting them to put themselves on belay properly. Without an extension, you can't do it because they get sucked into the rope like they're dry-humping it.
With the extension, you can put them on rap and yourself on rap. Then you rap first and they go when you give the word. AND it allows no room for error because you've done the whole setup and are down below providing a belay.
Another benefit is that it allows more play for a prussik backup between your brake hand and the device.
Cheers,
Jeff
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tisar
Sep 22, 2004, 3:03 PM
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There have been some incidents with breaking biners when useing a Figure-of-Eight for rappel. Download of an article done by the UIAA can be found here. Would assume that what you read had to do with that article.
In short: There's the posssibility of the FoE getting stuck to the screwgate of the biner crossloading and opening/breaking it. So it's not "Why higher?" but "Why not directly clip your FoE into the biner?".
- Daniel
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dingus
Sep 22, 2004, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: I've never heard of such a thing, and feel that it would negate the reinforced belay loop that's been sewn into your harness!
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Sep 22, 2004, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: do you mean so that your pack hangs between your legs? at first thought that seemed really awkward but the more i think about it the better it sounds. I may have to try this whole set up sometime, just to see how the higher device feels.
Dragging a pack off your rap biner has nothing to do with extending the device either. They are seperate subjects. Wearing a heavy pack when rapping is not the best practice. Best practice is to dangle it, unless it is so light it really doesn't matter.
DMT
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omenbringer
Sep 22, 2004, 3:18 PM
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I have used this method, I believe its called a Spider Rappel. It is great when the angle steepens for a lot of the reasons already stated plus I have noticed it puts less kinks in the rope. When I rap off my belay loop I have a tendency to pull off to the sides instead of inline with the device, with the extension the pull is in line with the device.
In reply to: There have been some incidents with breaking biners when useing a Figure-of-Eight for rappel. Download of an article done by the UIAA can be found here. Would assume that what you read had to do with that article. In short: There's the posssibility of the FoE getting stuck to the screwgate of the biner crossloading and opening/breaking it. So it's not "Why higher?" but "Why not directly clip your FoE into the biner?". - Daniel |
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