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chrisparedes
Sep 24, 2004, 8:18 PM
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Just curious. Once I start getting into trad climbing, is it okay to practice placements inbetween bolts on sport routes so that way you have the added confidence and protection of the bolts? Most likely I will start off with a small rack of nuts and wedges, I thought that may be a good idea.
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petsfed
Sep 24, 2004, 8:21 PM
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You could, but why? You'll still implicitly trust the bolts and not the gear. Better to follow a lot of routes, and start leading really easy routes. You'd be surprised how difficult 5.5 feels 3 feet above a stopper.
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yay_chris
Sep 24, 2004, 8:32 PM
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More often than not, sport routes can't be protected with gear.
You are better off practising gear routes on top-rope.
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hasbeen
Sep 24, 2004, 8:38 PM
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as a guide i used to put clients on top rope and make them lead trad pitch and then take falls on their gear placements. still can be scary but you are certain you're not going to die. i found this to be quite effective.
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dingus
Sep 24, 2004, 8:45 PM
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dmt
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valeberga
Sep 24, 2004, 8:46 PM
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The faux-leading toprope approach is a good one if done right.
I have seen a few routes that are fully protectable but bolted anyway, but they are rare and often the target of bolt-choppers. If you can find such a route, sure it's good practice. You may even decide to take some test falls on gear if there is a bolt right below the piece, then you can test your placement and if it blows the bolt will catch you.
It's best to learn gear placement from someone with a lot of experience, who has actually taken a good number of falls on gear and knows what will hold and what wont. You learn by cleaning their lead.
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valeberga
Sep 24, 2004, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: To make it even more useful, do not hang on routes. Always redpoint. If you fall, lower off.
That's a good sport-trad strategy assuming you are only doing one pitch.
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dingus
Sep 24, 2004, 9:01 PM
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This is gonna seem counter-intuitive and you may think I'm pulling your leg, but...
I think you'll get more trad practice by 'running it out' between the bolts than you will stopping and fiddling with pro.
To make it even more useful, do not hang on routes. Always redpoint. If you fall, lower off. If that means doing 5.9's instead of 5.11's, make the adjustment. Sport climbing this way will rapidly teach you your limits, your weaknesses. It will demand of you mandatory runnouts that despite sport climbing's 'pusy' reputation can be vary daunting and outright dangerous. You will practice fluid rope work and dynamic problem solving. You'll get good at predicting the terrain ahead and assessing your ability to climb it (and how best to do it).
Going the other route means stopping every time you start to get scared, to place pro. Don't get me wrongl I am the first to stop and place pro when I'm scared. But many times that is not the solution and it is certainly not the solution to GOOD climbing style.
Some trad you can place a nut every 5 feet. Good places to learn the mechanics of gear placements if you ask me. Just as often though, trad involves, at least in these part, monumental runnouts on easy ground coupled with a variety of demands on the harder stuff. The stronger your basic ropework skills, the more solid your lead head, and the better you know your limits and your red point ability to assess the terrain, the more confidently you will handle your trad affairs.
Sport climbing is a great jump start into trad...
CAVEAT: AS LONG AS YOU AVOID THE HABIT OF HANGING!!!111
Oh, and remember this too, it is very difficult to equate face route sport climbing ratings to trad crack climbs. They should almost use a different grading system, but they don't so no matter. But a 5.10a sport climb is not the same animal as a 5.10a fist crack, not the same animal at all. There are pretty much no sport routes tolerated in this land that will prepare you for that, hehe.
Just an opinion Bro.
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Sep 24, 2004, 9:02 PM
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delete
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one900johnnyk
Sep 24, 2004, 9:11 PM
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if you want to get a feel for placing gear, than yes. particularly useful for falling on some. i did a little of this wehn i started climbing. you can usually find a place to get a piece or two of trad pro in every couple of climbs if not more.. ..
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thegreytradster
Sep 24, 2004, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: To make it even more useful, do not hang on routes. Always redpoint. If you fall, lower off. If that means doing 5.9's instead of 5.11's, make the adjustment. Sport climbing this way will rapidly teach you your limits, your weaknesses. It will demand of you mandatory runnouts that despite sport climbing's 'pusy' reputation can be vary daunting and outright dangerous. You will practice fluid rope work and dynamic problem solving. You'll get good at predicting the terrain ahead and assessing your ability to climb it (and how best to do it).
Dingus hit it out of the park again. Not having a realistic understanding of your true (run out) limits and the attendent lack of route finding skills leads to far more epics and injuries than lack of understanding of protection mechanics.
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catbiter
Sep 24, 2004, 10:27 PM
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There is nothing I can say that has not been said. Wait, there is one thing. Practice placements on the ground no matter how small your rack is. It's nice to be able to look at something and know what piece you need. Good luck!
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dirtineye
Sep 24, 2004, 11:15 PM
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Gee Dingus I feel like trad is all about being able to stop and fiddle with the gear whenever you feel the need, and still be able to make the moves.
Part of good style is getting home in one piece.
I sure would not think you could find much gear to place on sport routes though, unless they are retroed runout trad routes.
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drector
Sep 24, 2004, 11:19 PM
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If it's the gear placements you want to get good at and trust then think about doing some aid climbing. You hang from each and every piece of gear. you can look at it and think "Is this gonna blow while I'm hanging here?"
You can be top roped while doing the aid but you'r stillgonna be shocked when something pops out.
Other than that, the rest of the ideas for testing your limits sound like good ideas. I've never taken a test fall onto gear but it will teach you to trust it.
Dave
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dingus
Sep 26, 2004, 3:53 PM
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In reply to: Gee Dingus I feel like trad is all about being able to stop and fiddle with the gear whenever you feel the need, and still be able to make the moves.
Sure it is. But you and I both know that the ideal way to trad is to boldly climb from stance to stance, placing pro from positions of balance and rest, and climbing though difficulties with as little stopping on difficult moves as possible. That is the ideal.
And it just so happens most sport routes are set up so the bolts are at positions of balance or rest, in between are the difficult moves.
But of course there is the reality of fear. We all stop to place pro in ill-advised situations. We fiddle with a crap placement KNOWING its a crap placement. We waste energy and emotions when our rational mind is calmly advising us to climb on.
That is not the ideal of trad. That is more my version, more of a bumbly version, placing pro for feelings rather than intelligence. YUK!
So back to our sport climber moving to trad... do you think his effort to find placements between bolts will foster the former or the latter habit?
I know sport climbing helps these aspects of my trad climbing.
Cheers!
DMT
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reno
Sep 26, 2004, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: So back to our sport climber moving to trad... do you think his effort to find placements between bolts will foster the former or the latter habit?
I think it can actually do both.
At first, I'd agree with Dingus' approach: Get comfortable with the idea of run out pitches, and worry about placing gear between bolts later.
Once you get comfortable with placing "obvious" gear -- The #2 Cam in the 2 inch crack -- then return to the sport route, looking for obscure, creative pro placements between the bolts. If you can do this, you learn a valuable lesson... how to improvise. If you can not do this, it reinforces the lesson learned earlier: Run it out.
A fair number of the sport routes I've seen (Colorado, Arizona, Georgia, Tennessee,) *can* be protected between bolts, if one is creative.
Techniques such as opposing chocks, Lowe Ball use, lengthy extension of gear, etc. that are not often taught to beginner trad climbers (let's admit it... most of us that teach trad will teach stopper placement and cam placement only...), may be options.
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sbclimber
Sep 26, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: Once I start getting into trad climbing, is it okay to practice placements in between bolts on sport routes so that way you have the added confidence and protection of the bolts?
why the hell are there bolts at all on these routes you speak of if they can be protected with gear?
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fredbob
Sep 26, 2004, 7:54 PM
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There has been some good advice given above. But if you really want to train for climbing trad, dingus' approach is a good component, but an incomplete formula in of itself.
Steve Edward's suggestion of top rope-leading is an excellent one and is the one you will likely see used if you were ever to take a lead climbing class from a professional guide.
I'd utilize both of these techniques, and supplement with:
(1) reading up on leading [john]; and
(2) following experienced leaders with
(a)observing the gear/placements when cleaning,
(b) asking questions about gear, where and why placed, and
(c) analyzing the entire protection/belay system based upon what you have read and have learned.
To trad lead, it is vital that you understand:
(1) how to place reliable gear,
(2) be able to quickly size up protection options and what piece will fit,
(3) how to anticipate forces placed upon the gear,
(4) see ahead where crux sections may be (so to protect these ahead of time),
(5) see where the route line goes to runner gear to avoid rope drag and avoid gear re-orienting itself (cams) or pulling out (nuts) as a result of the rope running through it,
Most important is to be able to set up a good belay anchor which will work not only for belaying the second person up, but to address the possibility of belaying a person on a second pitch (which may stress the anchor in different directions in the event of a fall).
While it may be okay (and probably a good idea) to overprotect leads when you are new to trad leading, ultimately (as has been suggested), you will need to learn when to run it out and when to stop and place pro. If you do run out easier sections, be sure when you stop to place gear that the pro is bomber (you might consider placing two pieces above a runout).
There is obviously much more, but the best idea is to get out there and get experience.
Best of luck.
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breaksnclimbs
Sep 26, 2004, 10:35 PM
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[quote="sbclimber
why the hell are there bolts at all on these routes you speak of if they can be protected with gear?
I was thinkin' the same thing!!
And i'm dissapointed...
I thought there would be more flame in this thread :?
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dirtineye
Sep 27, 2004, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gee Dingus I feel like trad is all about being able to stop and fiddle with the gear whenever you feel the need, and still be able to make the moves. Sure it is. But you and I both know that the ideal way to trad is to boldly climb from stance to stance, placing pro from positions of balance and rest, and climbing though difficulties with as little stopping on difficult moves as possible. That is the ideal.
Not for me. One of my favorite things is to find a way to exist in the crux and place gear. Ideally, I want to be able to pleace gear whenever I feel like it. I've hung by my heels, legs, and one hand (this can actually be a rest position in the middle of a certain kind of crux if you can find it) to place gear, hey it's fun! And it prevented a possible bad fall into a wall, byt turning this possible fall into an open air dangle. I'll climb halfway into a crux, place gear, reverse a few moves to a no hands rest, and then pull the move if need be. My ideal is not to die or get hurt or do anything too stupid while climbing. Dangerous Runouts are something to avoid if possible in my book.
In reply to: And it just so happens most sport routes are set up so the bolts are at positions of balance or rest, in between are the difficult moves.
That's often true on ground up jobs, not for rappel bolted stuff though.
In reply to: But of course there is the reality of fear. We all stop to place pro in ill-advised situations. We fiddle with a crap placement KNOWING its a crap placement. We waste energy and emotions when our rational mind is calmly advising us to climb on.
I think this leads to a "damned if you do, damned if you don't", situation in general (speaking about the ill advised situations) Fiddling with crap placements, I dunno. The last few crap placements I made, I should have fiddled with a bit more hahaha! I admit to placing a really bad piece when it was the only piece for about 100 feet, but it was easy to do on realatively easy ground, adn protected a slick wet step or two. I'd do that one again.
IF you are talking about obsessing on a crap placement as opposed to finding a good one, I really hate that.
But I am opposed to the passing up of good placements, cause you never know when you might get another one. Besides the more gear you place, the lighter you get!
In reply to: So back to our sport climber moving to trad... do you think his effort to find placements between bolts will foster the former or the latter habit?
I think that on most of the sport routes I've seen, barring one area with really bad rock but lots of 'placements', he won't find enough placements to matter.
I'm all for this guy doing the ground school thing to learn his gear placements.
The last climber I met who ran something out for 30 feet on an 'easy' climb he had done before got carried out with only a broken ankle-- by me and that trav-dawg punk hahaha. I just met the fellow again yesterday and he said he no longer runs it out so much!
I guess you could say, I climb as hard as I can, with as much pro in the rock as I can get. Yeah, that's it!
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 27, 2004, 3:11 AM
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use the sport climbing to teach you how to climb over your gear. you don't want to wind up being the trad climber that top ropes evey climb by placeing gear above them for every move. the guides may use the top rope trad leading approach but I think its pretty gay. they do it so they can turn out canned leaders in a day or 2. much better to find a mentor and follow a bunch of trad climbs. get totaly spanked and scared out of your mind. you might even end up doing some aiding just to get up whatever that evile ba$tard dragged you up (make sure you only do this while out of site :twisted: It is also a good idea to take a quick moment to re rack the gear while still out of site. this will allow you to arrive at the belay with a neat rack of gear instead of the tangled mess still hanging on the rope in front of your harness. :shock: after sufficiently fooling the mentor into beliveing that you are starting to get it (usualy after a few miles of rope slavery and buying the beer) The mentor will undoubtably force you to lead somthing that they think you can handle. how bad you get spanked will depend on how well you payed attention. do this for awhile and you will get the hang of it. it is also advisable to practice placeing gear and weighting it near the ground when not climbing. reading is also mandatory.
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dingus
Sep 28, 2004, 3:46 PM
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In reply to: Not for me. One of my favorite things is to find a way to exist in the crux and place gear. Ideally, I want to be able to pleace gear whenever I feel like it.
Right on. I am of the camp that believes it is best to place pro from stances and positions of balance. I prefer to climb through the crux (not that I always realize that ideal). Sport climbing WILL lend itself to climbing through the crux and if the routes are well bolted, the clips WILL be from the best stances available.
Another valuable tactic I picked up from sport climbing it waiting to clip the bolt till it is at my waist. Not all routes or bolting jobs lend themselves to this, but when applied to crack climbing this technique is awesome. Basically, wait and place pro at your waist, not over your head. The energy you save by not pulling up the rope is your own.
I am not advocating big runnouts. I am advocating efficient lead climbing. Not fiddling with lousy placements is one of those efficiencies.
DMT
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dirtineye
Sep 28, 2004, 11:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Not for me. One of my favorite things is to find a way to exist in the crux and place gear. Ideally, I want to be able to pleace gear whenever I feel like it. Right on. I am of the camp that believes it is best to place pro from stances and positions of balance. I prefer to climb through the crux (not that I always realize that ideal). Sport climbing WILL lend itself to climbing through the crux and if the routes are well bolted, the clips WILL be from the best stances available. Another valuable tactic I picked up from sport climbing it waiting to clip the bolt till it is at my waist. Not all routes or bolting jobs lend themselves to this, but when applied to crack climbing this technique is awesome. Basically, wait and place pro at your waist, not over your head. The energy you save by not pulling up the rope is your own. I am not advocating big runnouts. I am advocating efficient lead climbing. Not fiddling with lousy placements is one of those efficiencies. DMT
I'm a big waist clipper too, but I didn't learn it from sport. Waist clipping just makes good sense in several ways. You do save the rope pulling effort, but you also get a better view of the placement (place at eye level or a little lower, extend sling, clip rope below tie in, what could be easier?). It's a little harder to back clip that way too.
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ambler
Sep 29, 2004, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: I'd utilize both of these techniques, and supplement with: (1) reading up on leading [john]; and (2) following experienced leaders with (a)observing the gear/placements when cleaning, (b) asking questions about gear, where and why placed, and (c) analyzing the entire protection/belay system based upon what you have read and have learned. To trad lead, it is vital that you understand: (1) how to place reliable gear, (2) be able to quickly size up protection options and what piece will fit, (3) how to anticipate forces placed upon the gear, (4) see ahead where crux sections may be (so to protect these ahead of time), (5) see where the route line goes to runner gear to avoid rope drag and avoid gear re-orienting itself (cams) or pulling out (nuts) as a result of the rope running through it, Most important is ....
In reply to: I'm a big waist clipper too.... |
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mensrae
Sep 29, 2004, 5:18 AM
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most sport routes around here dont allow for gear placement, save for an occasional tricam in a pocket.
had a crack around here that was an excellent climb for placing gear. some chowder head decided to put some bolts on it. i think thats poor style.
practice placing gear on the ground. even when you get good at it, climbing is a different game. my first trad was a 5.6 and was all of a sudden not so easy.
enjoy
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