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cgranite


Sep 28, 2004, 9:08 PM
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SoCal Enduro Routes  (North_America: United_States: Utah: Salt_Lake_-_Utah_Counties: Rock_Canyon: The_Kitchen)
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I'm interested in long, beautiful, endurance routes for the SoCal area.
The Quality of the rock is important.
Primarily in the winter - early spring seasons.


kalcario


Sep 28, 2004, 10:08 PM
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how long? you mean sport routes?


bandycoot


Sep 28, 2004, 10:10 PM
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The Vampire is sustained up at Tahquitz. I've climbed up there in January if the weather is right. It should get a lot of sun in the afternoon but snow on the approach might be an issue. However, we are currently getting an amazingly little amount of rainfall this year in so cal (at least in San Diego).


cgranite


Sep 29, 2004, 6:19 PM
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Sport or Trad.


jt512


Sep 29, 2004, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:
I'm interested in long, beautiful, endurance routes for the SoCal area.
The Quality of the rock is important.
Primarily in the winter - early spring seasons.

If you live in SoCal you might want to be a little more flexible wrt rock quality. There are a number of winter areas with good, long endurance routes, but the rock around here tends to be less than stellar.

-Jay


kalcario


Sep 29, 2004, 10:02 PM
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*Sport or Trad.*

The term "endurance" usually refers to overhanging sport routes, as anything less than vert allows you to get most of your weight off your arms and de-pump.


cgranite


Sep 30, 2004, 5:15 PM
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In reply to:
*Sport or Trad.*

The term "endurance" usually refers to overhanging sport routes, as anything less than vert allows you to get most of your weight off your arms and de-pump.

That's not completely true. Take the smooth polished granite for example: put a wandering splitter up vertically for 140 feet. That's enduro!
An endurance climb is simply a sustaining route that puts strain on your arms for the whole length of the route. Most trad routes are endurance intensive.

Kalcario-you have some nice pictures.

Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?


benpullin


Sep 30, 2004, 5:18 PM
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Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?

Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools.


jt512


Sep 30, 2004, 5:20 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?

Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools.

The only endurance routes at Williamson are 5.13a and higher.

-Jay


cgranite


Sep 30, 2004, 5:30 PM
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The reason I ask for the endurance is because I believe it will be fun to work on while rehabilitating completely from bouldering injuries. So that puts 5.13 out of the question for now, but thanks for that info.


Partner tim


Sep 30, 2004, 6:20 PM
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if you're not dissuaded by a long approach in snow, you could do some south-facing routes at the Needles during warm spells. there are some 11's and 12's that are plenty enduro, which ought to be fine if you catch them in full sun.

besides, the altitude and the hike will help make the outing 'enduro'. ;-)

if you have trouble finding a partner, I'll be happy to go, but I can't follow anything harder than 5.11b/c and I can't lead any harder than 5.10b/c.

Herb Laeger has a brainful of information on all sorts of crags in the southern Sierra that are fine in the winter. The long routes on Patterson Bluff for example. Too bad His Royal Eminence isn't on here, too busy climbing :-)


feanor007


Sep 30, 2004, 6:51 PM
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this isn't socal, if your talking beautiful winter enduro routes, i got three words: Red River Gorge. Massive, overhanging, sustained sandstone. but thats kind a far from socal


pbjosh


Sep 30, 2004, 6:59 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?

Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools.

The only endurance routes at Williamson are 5.13a and higher.

-Jay

That's retarded. There are basically 2 routes at Williamson that are 13a or harder.

For a 10 or 11- climber, The Shaman is an endurance route. For someone who climbs 12-, World on Fire is something of an endurance issue. For that matter, there are scads of endurance routes that I can think of, at all grades.

And for that matter, Twist of Fate isn't terribly sustained from what I've heard?


jt512


Sep 30, 2004, 8:26 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Williamson rock isn't open for winter is it?

Sure, if you bring your skis and ice tools.

The only endurance routes at Williamson are 5.13a and higher.

-Jay

That's retarded. There are basically 2 routes at Williamson that are 13a or harder.

For a 10 or 11- climber, The Shaman is an endurance route.

First of all, the Shaman isn't long enough to be an endurance route. Secondly, how can a 5.11a route be an endurance route for a 5.10 climber? By definition, endurance means working well below your maximum level. Third, the Shaman has a distinct crux, and the remainder of the route is relatively easy. That doesn't describe an endurance route at all.

In reply to:
For someone who climbs 12-, World on Fire is something of an endurance issue.

Same as above. A 12b/c route cannot be an endurance route for a 12a climber. Secondly, World on Fire has a bouldery start, followed by easier climbing to an extremely good rest before the crux, which is somewhat powerful and definitely technical, followed by easy slab climbing to the anchors. This is about as bad an example of an endurance route as I can think of.

In reply to:
For that matter, there are scads of endurance routes that I can think of, at all grades.

That's odd, because I've climbed more routes there than you have, and I can't think of many endurance routes at all. Williamson routes tend to be characterized by technical cruxes, not by a lot of moves that are easy for the grade, but which add up to a pump, which is, essentially, the definition of an endurance route. In the winter, Echo Cliffs is the place to go for that kind of climbing, except the guy specified good rock.

-Jay


climbsomething


Sep 30, 2004, 8:41 PM
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Gosh, Jay, you implying that Mushroom ain't an enduro-pig testpiece of breathtaking proportions?


bishopclimber


Sep 30, 2004, 8:54 PM
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If you live in SoCal you might want to be a little more flexible wrt rock quality. There are a number of winter areas with good, long endurance routes, but the rock around here tends to be less than stellar.

-Jay

sure, if you only climb at Williamson or New Jack City


jt512


Sep 30, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Gosh, Jay, you implying that Mushroom ain't an enduro-pig testpiece of breathtaking proportions?

Only if you take very small breaths.

-Jay


gnat


Sep 30, 2004, 9:08 PM
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First of all, the Shaman isn't long enough to be an endurance route. Secondly, how can a 5.11a route be an endurance route for a 5.10 climber? By definition, endurance means working well below your maximum level.

"by definition" huh?

whose, your's?

there are plenty of easy 5.11 sport routes that have no moves harder than mid 5.10, but are rated harder than the technical crux, exactly because they are endurance routes.

but lets leave that aside for the time being and look at the other nonsense you wrote, shall we?


In reply to:
For someone who climbs 12-, World on Fire is something of an endurance issue.

now this seems like a reasonable enough statement. but noooooo, jt5.2 has to find fault from up on mt. olympus:

In reply to:
Same as above. A 12b/c route cannot be an endurance route for a 12a climber. Secondly, World on Fire has a bouldery start, followed by easier climbing to an extremely good rest before the crux, which is somewhat powerful and definitely technical, followed by easy slab climbing to the anchors. This is about as bad an example of an endurance route as I can think of.

now hold on there a minute little buddy. i though you said that endurance routes mean
In reply to:
"working well below your maximum level"
. So if there is easier climbing above the bouldery start, how does that not meet the jt5.2 expoused criteria?

after all, if the bouldery start were followed by lots of really hard techincal moves, it couldn't be below one's maximum level, could it?
and world on fire does require endurance to climb, particularly because it has a powerful crux mid way up sustained (but easier climbing).



In reply to:
For that matter, there are scads of endurance routes that I can think of, at all grades.

now it gets good. jt5.2 now attempts to lord "his" vastly superior experience over poor josh:

In reply to:
That's odd, because I've climbed more routes there than you have, and I can't think of many endurance routes at all. blah, blah, blah, blah....


so what pearls of wisdom do we devine from mr.5.2?

if it ain't 5.13, it can't be an endurance route and by extension is hardly worth doing, talking about, etc.

but hold it! how does this fit into the
In reply to:
"working well below your maximum level"
theory? inquiring minds could care less.


jt512


Sep 30, 2004, 9:46 PM
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Gnat, I have no interest in participating in your pettiness. Endurance climbing requires moves that are individually not hard for you, and a lot of them, without rests. That's not my definition. That's what every climbing training book says, based on how 1000 exercise physiology texts define endurance. It's submaximal exercise in any sport, including climbing.

Wmson is not a good endurance crag because it's not characterized by routes that meet the above description. Carpe Garden (13a) might be an endurance route to a 14a climber. World on Fire is about as far from the description of an endurance route as I can imagine. If the original poster wants to train endurance, then Echo would be his best, where there is route after route of sustained climbing at any level of difficulty from 5.10d to 5.13 with repetitive moves up constant-angle rock. That's endurance climbing.

-Jay


climbsomething


Sep 30, 2004, 10:29 PM
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Beware biting flies... who type in wee red letters *pushes glasses up nose and leans into monitor* :lol:


Partner tim


Sep 30, 2004, 11:56 PM
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So, like, this guy posts about 'long, beautiful endurance routes' and youse all start arguing about sport routes.

WTF?

I was totally serious about the south-facing routes at the Needles and about other areas in the southern Sierra. If he wants long and beautiful, a SoCal sport crag is not likely to cut it!

(edit: Looks like Aaron pointed out two strong counterexamples. I haven't been to either so I can't say. But I challenge you to find a more beautiful route than Romantic Warrior at a sport crag in SoCal :-) ... so on that count at least, I will stick to my guns ;-) )


roughster


Sep 30, 2004, 11:58 PM
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Bah, the elitism gets so old. Jay you need to step up your climbing considering all the elitist drivel that comes from your typing. A mid-5.12 climber is a dime dozen, get over yourself, and that comes from someone who has climbed as hard or harder than you. Quit relying on "training books" to do your thinking for you.

If you want endurance sport routes there are two areas specifically to hit:

#1- Frustration Creek. You will be hard pressed to find any sport climbing resource in SoCal that can compare when it comes to endurance routes.

#2- *Currently Developing Crag*. Most people know what I am talking about but I won't be the one to spill the beans. This crag will replace Frustration as the premiere monster length sport route area in SoCal as soon as it is rolled out.

People quit feeding the troll, and I don't mean the orginal poster. From reasding what in essence boils down to the same posts with the same attitude, you can only assume at this point Jay does it for the trolling aspect more than anything else.


pbjosh


Oct 1, 2004, 12:10 AM
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I'm sorry, Jay, that there aren't enough routes that meet your exact requirements of ratio of hard to easy moves and difficulty of cruxes and lack of rests, etc, to be "endurance routes"

That having been said there are a fair number of long routes at Williamson that are reasonably steep that have cruxes that aren't terribly hard for the grade and that are pretty pumpy. But I guess we won't call them endurance routes.


pbjosh


Oct 1, 2004, 12:13 AM
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In reply to:
#2- *Currently Developing Crag*. Most people know what I am talking about but I won't be the one to spill the beans. This crag will replace Frustration as the premiere monster length sport route area in SoCal as soon as it is rolled out.

But don't you know that those routes are littered with good holds and rests and are therefore definitely NOT endurance routes? I know that the 150 feet of Rocky didn't give me a workout, that's for sure. Heh...


benpullin


Oct 1, 2004, 12:38 AM
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When I think of an endurance route, I think of a route with sustained moves of the same relative difficulty with one or two 'harder' moves. Thus, the workout becomes a matter of simply hanging on rather than being able to do a hard move.

That being said, I would have to agree that there really aren't many endurance routes at Williamson. Generally, most of the routes there have a very technical/powerful/balancey crux, a section of easy climbing, and a section of harder climbing. I believe that Carpe Diem is as close to an endurance route as you'll get at Willi.

I haven't, however, been on Carpe Garden, but I've heard much harder climbers than myself refer to the route as a true endurance training route.

When I think of So Cal enduro routes, I think of Echo. But, I haven't been to the *crag under construction* nor Frustration Creek.

... my 2 cents.

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