|
kid
Oct 2, 2004, 3:38 AM
Post #1 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 46
|
Is it moral and acceptable to dry tool at the local crags in the off season to train for ice climbing and mixed routes? Should a person stay away from sport routes and trad climbs? Do we have to create our own areas in the worst rock in the shady areas? Are we out casts? Dry tooling is a sport in itself that is starting to see compititions in France and is a great training experience for mixed alpine climbing. Any thoughts? ~ Rock Scraper - Greg F.
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Oct 2, 2004, 3:43 AM
Post #2 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
In reply to: Is it moral and acceptable to dry tool at the local crags in the off season to train for ice climbing and mixed routes?
Nope.
In reply to: Should a person stay away from sport routes and trad climbs?
If you are wielding ice tools and crampons then yes. Besides, you might freak out the tourons with all those sharp things.
Man I can't wait to go mixed climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
kid
Oct 2, 2004, 3:58 AM
Post #3 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 46
|
I knew the answer to the question when I asked but isn't it fun to start thinking about mixed routes!!!! Hehee....... More cold shi...ty weather please. Mixed routes are waiting. Snow line has dissapeared down here in Montana. Indian summer prevails. Any goods up north yet?
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Oct 2, 2004, 1:34 PM
Post #4 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
Getting colder. It's -1c in Canmore right now :D Supposed to get up to 15 today though :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Oct 2, 2004, 4:52 PM
Post #5 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
Just build a little indoor wall out of scrap lumber, bolt on some homemade holds, and you can beat it to crap as part of your "training." Preserve what remains of the rock for your delicate onsight attempt.
|
|
|
|
|
brianthew
Oct 2, 2004, 10:34 PM
Post #6 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 1820
|
In reply to: Just build a little indoor wall out of scrap lumber, bolt on some homemade holds, and you can beat it to crap as part of your "training." Preserve what remains of the rock for your delicate onsight attempt.
This is indeed a good idea. I did this very thing to my wall, and it paid off with me starting the season in top shape for ice. To make the holds, I suggest you go get some bits of some hardwood (pine will work, but not as well) and drill and cut some little pockets, edges, slots, etc. Then drill a 3/8" hole, get a bolt, a washer, and you have instant dry tooling holds for next to nothing. No regrets of beating the crap out of 'em.
But yeah, drytooling at rock (hands and feet rock, that is) crags will likely raise the ire of every climber that ever climbed there. There's evidence to suggest there was drytooling done at a local sport crag up here, and nobody was at all amused by it. It scrapes the holds in a most ugly fashion. Leave the dry tooling for designated dry tool crags, which tend to be chosspiles frozen in place by winter.
Oh, and we had our first freeze up here in Minneapolis last night.....w00t
|
|
|
|
|
microbdcamalot
Oct 3, 2004, 10:15 PM
Post #7 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 30, 2004
Posts: 187
|
But who ever said the rock was created for rock climbing only? who delegated the rule of it only being for climbing, and not dry tooling. i understand the ethics n al lenvolved and all that, but im jsut sayin who is in charge of sayin u cant dry tool, maybe i se it as u cant climb cuz i wanan dry tool.
|
|
|
|
|
a_guy_named_smith
Oct 3, 2004, 10:55 PM
Post #8 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 142
|
I am not a dry tooler (insert sexist joke here)
this does seem analogous to why people try to climb clean whenever possible because nailing damages the rock.
If too many people nail then the rock is damaged for future climbers,
hence the ethical claim that one should not nail whenever possible because we have an obligation to not destroy the means for our fun (the rock)
but that is old news
It certainly is debatable but it does seem to have been universally accepted.
So yes dry tool all you want AS long as you dont damage the rock with your placements (damage means not any more than placing and cleaning a piton).
but i doubt that dry tooling does less damage then placing and cleaning a pin
so that is why you get to head off to that choss pile
|
|
|
|
|
fecalquisinart
Oct 3, 2004, 11:04 PM
Post #9 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 188
|
I think it is very immoral to do it with a dry tool. You should really lube up.
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Oct 3, 2004, 11:52 PM
Post #10 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: But who ever said the rock was created for rock climbing only? |
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Oct 4, 2004, 12:16 AM
Post #11 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Even bullet proof granit gets scratched up pretty easily. If it is a straight rock climb with no ice and you dry tool it you are a selfish moron. If you want some summer rock to tool on find an abandoned quary. Blast rock generaly sucks for free climbing. Also anything that stays wet, seeps, nasty dank thing that no one would want to rock climb. It might even ice up in the winter and be a decent mixed climb.
|
|
|
|
|
kid
Oct 5, 2004, 5:24 AM
Post #12 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 46
|
I agree with all these comments and it is true that mixed climbers belong in the waste land of unclimbable frozen choss pile where pitons, crampons and ice tools can live in peace. The sad thing is that we like it. There is no substitute for mixed climbing, and to say you would not harm the rock and leave a mark dry tooling is not apossibility. So it is my understanding that if the ice has formed no matter how thin that it is moral to climb. So the difference between dry tooling and ice climbing can be a millimeter or two of ice. Cragers beware of taking a leak off your precious climb, if the temps drop to low you may be forming the next mixed route. Winter is nipping on the heals of this indian summer. ~ Climb safe.
|
|
|
|
|
pebbleman
Oct 7, 2004, 1:57 PM
Post #13 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 80
|
Never dry tool on established summer crag routes, bad form old boy. Pre-season on “winter” mixed routes is okay, although I’ve noticed a propensity for the holds normally held in place by frost to rip off, limestone in particular as it is so porous. Winter ascents of north-face type routes by dry-tool methods probably okay, (i.e., Hallets, Longs, Tetons, etc.), best to bolt or TR some choss-heap no one uses in summer and wear your helmet and mouth guard.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Oct 7, 2004, 2:04 PM
Post #14 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
In reply to: Is it moral and acceptable to dry tool at the local crags in the off season to train for ice climbing and mixed routes? Should a person stay away from sport routes and trad climbs? Do we have to create our own areas in the worst rock in the shady areas? Are we out casts? Dry tooling is a sport in itself that is starting to see compititions in France and is a great training experience for mixed alpine climbing. Any thoughts? ~ Rock Scraper - Greg F.
no, youre not outcasts.
yes, you should create your own area. it doesnt need to be chossy, just make sure you dont destry an existing area. slovenian drytoolers have done so and now they have a really nice crag to play at. and its not a chosspile, its good quality rock, they even got a cave and some ruotes have in-situ draws.
but please stay away from established routes. just because you like to drytool it doest give you the permition to destroy other peoples work/pleasure. just because i like to have sex, does it give me the permission to rape your wife/gf????
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Oct 7, 2004, 2:14 PM
Post #15 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
In reply to: So it is my understanding that if the ice has formed no matter how thin that it is moral to climb. So the difference between dry tooling and ice climbing can be a millimeter or two of ice.
your understanding is wrong. a few mms of ice dont make a mixed route.
|
|
|
|
|
solitudeclimber
Oct 7, 2004, 2:36 PM
Post #16 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 31
|
slobmonster: “Standard climbing 'ethics' apply: the cleanest, bestest ascent of an established route maintains the tactics employed on the first ascent; do it cleaner or better if you can; don't mess up the resource. If you can guarantee that your dry-tooling won't violate any and/or all of these, go for it. Otherwise (i.e. your technique is lacking, and you scrape up the rock) do not.’
I agree fully with this statement as I do dry tool preseason and will continue to do so. Many of the comments posted are valid, the tools many leave small marks, break holds etc.. However many of the posted comments seem to be made by those who have never dry tooled, as the art of dry tooling is a rather delicate one.
You are not throwing tools around as you are with ice. Dry tooling is fragile, you set a cam harder then placing a tool dry tooling. You should never crank on flakes or suspect holds with tools, as this will obviously create one hell of a moment arm and inevitably break the hold. You should also never claw at the rock like a cat with the tools.
I am a very active individual in my climbing area, set routes, clean crags, teach new climbers, etc, and I found after preseason dry tooling and dry tooling through the winter when it was too cold to climb when no ice was in that no evidence was left at the crag that we had been there. We climbed with axes and climbing shoes as we believed crampons were more likely to skid off and scar the rock. When it warmed up and the locals came back up to the crags, they couldn’t tell we were dry tooling either, we asked them, just to make sure we weren’t overlooking anything. Where we climb: American Fork Canyon, UT
If you are starting out I suggest you climb inside for a while, as you will need to build up your balance muscles as dry tooling is night and day from ice climbing. Try taping your picks; a thin layer of tape will protect the rock against scraps. Climb easy routes once outside and concentrate on your placements, every placement should be placed under the premise of leave no trace. Don’t, under any circumstances pry on flakes or pull on suspect holds. Bottomline: use commonsense and don’t be a dumbass and you won’t have any problems.
It also helps if you are truly going preseason and the crags are still packed, to go out extra early or stay later once the crowds have passed to feed your itch, you’ll draw a hell of a lot less attention as I guarantee every passerby will stop once they see you up there with axes.
|
|
|
|
|
ambler
Oct 7, 2004, 2:44 PM
Post #17 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2002
Posts: 1690
|
In reply to: In reply to: So it is my understanding that if the ice has formed no matter how thin that it is moral to climb. So the difference between dry tooling and ice climbing can be a millimeter or two of ice. your understanding is wrong. a few mms of ice dont make a mixed route.
On Cathedral Ledge, for example, mixed climbers have scratched up the clean face and crack climb Dresden, because it forms some ice in winter; I think that's unfortunate, comparable to hamering pitons in and out on a classic free climb in order to aid it. Some parties have fun, and all others see the damage. But on the same cliff, Repentence and Remission have been ice-climbed countless times, with no objections -- the ice tends to be thicker, and the rock less likely to show scars. So it all depends....
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Oct 7, 2004, 4:03 PM
Post #18 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Solitudeclimber, you are assumeing that eveyone is a pro. NOT THE CASE :roll: Even if you are a pro it only takes one skidding fall to leave a nasty scratch. i have personlay scratched the crap out of one of my own sport climbs when it was thinly iced. I feel pretty shamefull evey time i see those scratches. Free climbs are meant to be free climbed. Find you own rock to establish mixed climbs on. If free climb does ice up it becomes fair game for dry tooling but you set a realy bad example for the average climber when you dry tool a rock climb. Joe gumby sees you dancing up that thing and thinks to himself that "jo hot shot does it so it must be ok for me" Pretty selfish if you ask me. Another thing to consider is just because you got away with somthing a few times does not mean that the impact would be the same if it became main stream. It is totaly absurd to state that steel points don't have more impact on the rock than fingers :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Oct 7, 2004, 4:33 PM
Post #19 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: Is it moral and acceptable to dry tool at the local crags in the off season to train for ice climbing and mixed routes? Should a person stay away from sport routes and trad climbs? Do we have to create our own areas in the worst rock in the shady areas? Are we out casts? Dry tooling is a sport in itself that is starting to see compititions in France and is a great training experience for mixed alpine climbing. Any thoughts? ~ Rock Scraper - Greg F.
No.
Yes.
Yes.
No.
Yep. My thoughts are that dry tooling and training for mixed type ice climbs should be done NOT in an area where there are established trad/sport free or aid climbs. I think especially here in Utah, there's plenty of the newer dry tooling type routes that stand alone from the established free/aid climbing. So, not much problem. I think they should be done in separate areas. Dry toolin' can be pretty scratchy business.
There's a ton of rock, at least around here. Pretty easy to do your own dry tooling routes and not bother/impact the rest of the folks.
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Oct 7, 2004, 5:08 PM
Post #20 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: Where we climb: American Fork Canyon, UT
I get the gyst of what you're saying. And not to avoid quoting you fully, but others can just scroll up and read your post... I appreciate your intent, tainign and all. Having been to AF, I can get a picture in my head of what you're dealing with as far as scraping, scratching, etc. It's dirty limestone, no mystery there; the features you're going to be pulling on are edges and pockets, mostly. It's way easier to drytool on rock like this, without leaving scars. The granite referred to by some other posters --Ambler, Tradmanclimbs-- is really nice, white, clean granite, and during the summer there are rock climbers everywhere. I've climbed all three routes they mentioned, and yes, they are scratched up a bit. It's unfortunate. I've also been to Vail and scrapped up some routes that, though "mixed" were really rock climbs that moved onto some ice.
But I think your original post alluded more to training. I don't know if I got the wrong impression here. But hell, if you're convinced you're doing no damage, and not pissing anyone off, get out there and have at it. But here's a tip: don't tell all us internet wonks about it, we'll stir ourselves into a tizzy.
|
|
|
|
|
rokshoxbkr19
Oct 7, 2004, 6:33 PM
Post #21 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2002
Posts: 767
|
I am not going to read this post further than the initial comments of the poster. THERE IS NO MORALITY IN DRYTOOLING AT A LOCAL CRAG. If I walked up to my local crag and saw someone chipping at the rock with crampons and an ice ax I would kick his ass, no questions asked. Don't do it.
|
|
|
|
|
kid
Oct 7, 2004, 7:32 PM
Post #22 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 46
|
All said from the posters with interest, I agree that this is not ment to be a training ground for newby ice climbers. Drytooling and thin ice climbs are both a nessecity and an art of mixed alpine climbing that needs to be practiced and honed. I find it unfourtunate that people think the world is only to be used by the mainstream and any alternative should go elsewhere. Montana does not have the convienience of a lot of road side crags all over the country side to designate routes as rock climbers only get over it. Sport routes are in fact the worst scar - taming the unclimbables. Let's all get along and use our own common sense. Thin ice is a viable climbing technique no matter how thin. This is what you run into on alpine routes with ice fog, and early season conditions. You better have some experience on it when it counts. Judgement is a key issue. Drytooling is a viable alternative to time consuming gear changes in the alpine, weight factors of extra gear, and in fact danger of changing modes. It is efficient to climb harder routes with ice tools and crampons. I will use good judgement and be curtious to other climbers as it is a delecate manuver to drytool and is not a thrashing action. In turn be patient with others climbing for alternate sports that you can not understand without attempting. See "all get along." This continues to be an interesting topic. Thanks for all the insight, and climb safe. ~ Greg F.
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Oct 7, 2004, 7:47 PM
Post #23 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: Montana does not have the convienience of a lot of road side crags all over the country side to designate routes as rock climbers only get over it. Sport routes are in fact the worst scar - taming the unclimbables.
Actually, its kind of a big state...and, yes, it has a bunch of roadside crags for thin ice. Try T-Falls area for example. Etc etc etc.
Maybe you should chat with a few of the local hard guys...who both clip bolts on (and put up) sports climbs and climb a bit of ice, for their opinion? You might ask a few of them if its ok to practise drytooling on their rock routes. Think Pat C. would mind? Bill D? Tom K? They're around. I'm thinkin' they'd be pretty bummed.
In your area...Lane J? Ran into him in the Missions a few years back...ton of roadside ice in that area...and...speakin' of taming the unclimbables...a real Montanan don't need no stinkin' roadside climbing anyway. Ha ha. Try hikin' a bit.
Brian in SLC
(native Montanan...and...headin' that way in a few minutes...)
|
|
|
|
|
kid
Oct 8, 2004, 3:08 AM
Post #24 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 46
|
Your missing the point my friend. This discussion is not about how far out you go to climb this is about training for climbs. Don't get all agro about our state. I understand that yes there are plenty of places to climb in our state, but local access in the Northwest montana is limited to a few general areas for road side training. Are you going to hike twenty miles round trip to train to climb, I doubt it. And if I need to ask permission to climb some M--- F--- route they can shove it up their a---. Live to climb- Climb to live. Freedom is a bitch. ~ Greg F
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Oct 8, 2004, 4:58 AM
Post #25 of 33
(4230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: And if I need to ask permission to climb some M--- F--- route they can shove it up their a---. Live to climb- Climb to live. Freedom is a b----. ~ Greg F
Ahhh..."kid"s....to be young again...
Permission aside, it might be more about respect...
That karma thing is a beeyotch too, eh?
Not that there's any loose rock where you hang out...
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
(snow in the highcountry this weekend?...yowser!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
