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lidosis
Oct 11, 2004, 4:46 PM
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I was hearing a rumor about the mill that for 2005 vendors will not be allowed to sell items. No getting cheap $h!^ at the PBB.
The word I heard is that this is being pushed by the larger companies like North Face and BD and a few others. Big kids on the block are trying to pick on the smaller competition it sounds like to me.
Has anyone else heard anything.
Edit: added...
A second rumor I heard on regards to this event...
The consideration of making it dry, as a means of making it more family friendly.
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killclimbz
Oct 11, 2004, 5:02 PM
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Sounds like some BS to me. If you can verify this, I would suggest getting and email campaign going to let the big boys know how you feel about this.
They really shouldn't dictate this sort of thing. If someone wants to sell their gear for cheap, they should be allowed to do so. Especially since this has been a tradition at this comp.
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crimpandgo
Oct 11, 2004, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: I was hearing a rumor about the mill that for 2005 vendors will not be allowed to sell items. No getting cheap $h!^ at the PBB. The word I heard is that this is being pushed by the larger companies like North Face and BD and a few others. Big kids on the block are trying to pick on the smaller competition it sounds like to me. Has anyone else heard anything.
Not sure I understand this one. Many of the vendors are distributors of gear not the actual gear manufacturers. If they choose to sell the gear cheaper seems to me they take the loss and this wouldn't affect the main manufacturers. This kind of thing goes on in every industry to clear out old stock etc. Not sure I see the issue.
So, do these "rumors mean there is going to be a 2005 PBB? Every year its up in the air?
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curt
Oct 11, 2004, 5:13 PM
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I'm not sure if any final decision has been made, or not--regarding vendors at the 2005 PBB. However, the issue is more complicated than what has been posted here.
North Face, Black Diamond, etal are being pressured by some gear retailers to not sponsor the PBB, if retail sales are allowed at the competition. And no sponsors = no competition.
Curt
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lidosis
Oct 11, 2004, 5:15 PM
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The issue is that there may not be any vending of gear at the PBB, because of pressure from larger companies.
Added: Really Curt, I have not heard it like that, so The larger companies are being pressured from retailers, like who REI?
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clippedclimbing
Oct 11, 2004, 5:24 PM
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Curt hit the nail on the head. It is not pressure from the large companies(manufacturers). The pressure is coming from the retailers. The PBC has saturated the entire SW with super cheap merchandise. This has a direct effect on the retailers in this market as well as large mail order operations. The manufacturers are very attentive to the needs of the local specialty shops as that will ensure their success, not blowing out leftover gear that they are loosing their a** on.
Yes, there will be a PBC 2005, it will just be operated with-out discount vending.
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curt
Oct 11, 2004, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: Added: Really Curt, I have not heard it like that, so The larger companies are being pressured from retailers, like who REI?
I am not sure who the specific retailers are that are pushing for the elimination of vending at the PBB, but I know this is what is happening. I got this info directly from Jim Waugh. The retailers want the manufacturers to only exhibit gear--and not sell it at the PBB.
Curt
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lidosis
Oct 11, 2004, 5:44 PM
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So the retail shops want manufacturers to come down and advertise product and them say go buy it from this guy not me.
As a manufactur I would tell those shops where to stick it. If they want the sales they should shell out for a sponsorship and a booth.
There are many small companies in our industry and to expect these individuals to shell out money to canabalize there own sales.
Well the arguement may be that they sell it regardless if it is through a shop or themselves. This is true, however shops purchase products at wholesale and then sell at retail, It is much better for the companies to sell directly at retail or even discounted prices that are still above wholesale or equal.
If a gear manufacturer can show up at an event like this, they can sell many more pads even at wholesale pricing than they can sell to shops in the area for that given period of time.
The second issue is how may of those sales at PBB are impulse purchases. Some person got all excited and bought some gear, if the gear there is not for sale and only shown off some of those sales will be lost forever.
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imnotafraid
Oct 11, 2004, 5:49 PM
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boo-hoo.
Why does everyone have to make exceptions for things at some point? Guess what, ...life isn't always fair, if you don't like it, then don't be a part of it. why can't things continue the way they have been going for years? it has worked out for most. who are the people complaining?...f*%* --M!
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crimpandgo
Oct 11, 2004, 5:52 PM
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a better option (than not selling or not sponsering) could be to still sell items, but simply sell at normal prices. I know lots of people that head to the PBC just for the booths. If you take that away, what affects will it have on the entire event
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clippedclimbing
Oct 11, 2004, 6:04 PM
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The peolpe who it is not working out for are the people funding the event. Take away the sponsors and the event does not happen.
Even if you raise the price of the products it does not solve the problem. (crinpandgo) The money is still being sucked out of the specialty retail market. These events were originated to drive more consumers into these shops.
As you state, many people only go for the cheap gear. That to me is an inherent flaw in the operations plan for a successful industry benefitting event. The PBB is one of the only events that allows sales and this is why. I am sure when Jim Waugh and Co. started down this avenue they did not see it playing out like this. It has been a great event and will continue to be even with out discount selling. Also take note that the area is set to be closed in a few short years that seems inevitable. Maybe all of our energies could be used to work on that issue as opposed to worrying about cheap gear prices.
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lidosis
Oct 11, 2004, 6:10 PM
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If they stop allowing sales it would be the only event that I know of. Of all the events that I have gone to or worked at we can sell stuff. So the idea is sponsors and money like always. But if the sponsors are going to loose their shirts on the deal they probally won't do it and the PBB will see less sponsors as a result unless this idea is that enough large companines will be able to afford to still sponsor and at a price to make up for the lost sponsors. Sounds to me like the North Face and BD and the likes need to step up to the shops.
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epic_ed
Oct 11, 2004, 6:20 PM
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If there are no gear sales I likely won't be attending. It's the free schwag and cheap prices on overstocked/blemished/old model items that draw many of the attendees who aren't actually participating in the event. I can imagine Jim is really in a pickle in this situation, and it sounds like a lose/lose proposition.
Ed
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holdplease2
Oct 11, 2004, 6:22 PM
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I can understand the perspectives of the shops in this situation.
Say you live within 200 miles of phoenix and go to the PBC. Maybe you buy a new pack every 1.5 years, new climbing shoes every 6 months to a year, and a new expensive jacket every 2 years. Add in hiking shoes every few years and some gear.
Would you be likely to buy these "big ticket" items at your local shop if you knew that the PBC was only 4 months away and you could probably get the gear you want (or close to it) for 40% off? No way!
Now, if it weren't for the deep discounts at the PBC...you'd have paid retail or maybe a small discount at your local shop.
Now, multiply that times thousands of people...and look how it can impact local vendors.
The thing with the PBC is that it is a Regularly Occuring Event. You can plan your purchases around it. Other competitions which move around would impact each local market only once then move on somewhere else.
Because the PBC is predictable, annual, and in the same market every year, its impact on small retailers has got to be quite serious.
Something to think about if you want your little shops, like the AZ Hiking Shak, to be around year in and year out.
Just my 2 cents.
-Kate.
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crimpandgo
Oct 11, 2004, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: I can understand the perspectives of the shops in this situation. Say you live within 200 miles of phoenix and go to the PBC. Maybe you buy a new pack every 1.5 years, new climbing shoes every 6 months to a year, and a new expensive jacket every 2 years. Add in hiking shoes every few years and some gear. Would you be likely to buy these "big ticket" items at your local shop if you knew that the PBC was only 4 months away and you could probably get the gear you want (or close to it) for 40% off? No way! Now, if it weren't for the deep discounts at the PBC...you'd have paid retail or maybe a small discount at your local shop. Now, multiply that times thousands of people...and look how it can impact local vendors. The thing with the PBC is that it is a Regularly Occuring Event. You can plan your purchases around it. Other competitions which move around would impact each local market only once then move on somewhere else. Because the PBC is predictable, annual, and in the same market every year, its impact on small retailers has got to be quite serious. Something to think about if you want your little shops, like the AZ Hiking Shak, to be around year in and year out. Just my 2 cents. -Kate.
The PBC can help the local vendors not hurt them. The AZ hiking shack has a booth there every year. I bought gear from them the last two years because I knew they were local. Plus, I think the "local" problem is already been hightened with the ease at buying gear online at cheaper prices. I try to support the local stores but there are some great online deals that are hard to pass up.
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lidosis
Oct 11, 2004, 6:30 PM
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This whole discussion so far seems like a slipery slope to me.
Either the small Mom and Pop climbing companies get it or the Arizona Mom and Pop gear shops get it.
Well since I don't live in Arizona I would care more for the welfare of the companies from which I purchase gear.
Using discounts and getting the product out at events like this is a good thing for gear manufactures. The individuals who travel to events like this tend to be the more dedicated in the community and are looked up to. If you can send them home with your gear, it will sell more gear. One of the crazy things where sales beget more sales.
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epic_ed
Oct 11, 2004, 6:39 PM
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Yeah, but the one thing that has never been predictable is what kind of gear was going to be available. Yeah, you can usually count on finding a cheap pair of shoes and a discounted program rope or boulder pads. But other than that, vendors like Marmot, Moonstone, Sickle, Misty Mountain, the AZ Hiking Shack, and others have just brought what they had from a large blemished or overstocked inventory. It was always a crap shoot what these guys were going to bring -- some years you might get a screamin deal on a sleeping bag; other years very few bags at all. Sometimes you could find a nice hard shell from one of the big manufacturers; other times you could only find a nice light weight rain jacket.
My point -- there are many items that vendors have brought over the years that you really couldn't count on finding there, and therefore can't really plan to defer your purchase if you found a good deal on an item you needed at your local shop. Ropes and shoes the exception, of course. I know several of the affected vendors (the guys at the Shack, in particular) and Dale always gripes about the whole ordeal and insists he barely breaks even -- but he's out there every damn year. I believe that what these local retailers loose in the short term with shoe and rope sales, they gain back in customer loyalty and appreciation. The retailers all get a chance to unload merchandise that has been sitting on the shevles collecting dust, and even if it goes below cost, they still get to shake hands and kiss babies with THOUSANDS of climbers who are potential future customers.
I'm not buying that they are hurt as bad as they claim, and I'm calling BS on their motives.
Ed
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t-dog
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Oct 11, 2004, 6:49 PM
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While I agree that it hurts local vendors to some degree that gear is being sold at the PBB, I don't think it's impact is as important as many of you paint it out to be. As was said before, A LOT of the purchases made at the PBB are impulse buys (i.e. Hey, I don't really need this, but it's a great deal so I'll buy it =) and living in SD, I can tell you that there is a lot of gear for sale at the PBB that I have NEVER seen in local shops. As for getting them through mail-order, I personally only do it if it's gear I've played with/used before and know exactly what I'm getting, not something I've heard is cool from someone else. Also, I don't speak for other people here, but if I need a new rope (and I do mean NEED) in January, you know what, I'm not gonna wait till PBB to get one cause I want to climb before then, and I'll go by one at Nomad's, period.
Also, half the fun/excitement at the PBB is finding great deals and buying new gear, sh!t, take that away, and I don't know what I'm gonna spend 3 days doing! If there are no vendors, then I'll probably just show up for 2 days =( Maybe the gear manufacturers need to make a deal where they only sell out-of-season or blemished stuff or something.
And seriously, most of the vendors and cheap gear for sale at the PBB is NOT from BD or the NF, but from little climbing companies like Splitter, SoIll and others. And seriously, sending people home with lots of your gear and the fact that they already love it cause they got it for so cheap is very effective free advertising.
Anyways, no sales at the PBB would be WEAK SAUCE :evil:
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holdplease2
Oct 11, 2004, 7:05 PM
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Excellent points, guys. Especially the one about online price shopping and how its impacting small local retailers.
And tell you what, the only reason I would GO to this competition is to get deals on the gear...which would bring more money to the state of AZ.
There are two sides to every coin. Hopefully there will be a compromise which will allow us to get our deals and keep the local retailers happy.
Now about making it a "dry" event...I will be standing at the gate selling paper bags and "can cozy" gear for $5 each.
Any takers? ;)
-Kate.
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crimpandgo
Oct 11, 2004, 7:06 PM
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Where are all these Cheap deals you talk about? I bought a lot of gear at last years PBC and I could have gotten the same deals online at year end closeouts. I also get the same discount if I wait for sales at the local places and REI. It was just easier to buy it at PBB and I did so at the arizona hiking shack, so I supported local shops as well :lol:
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epic_ed
Oct 11, 2004, 7:11 PM
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My last comment on this:
There retailers involved in this cry-baby fest are acting on speculation and conjecture. They have a myopic point of view on how they are affected by the sales of goods at the PBB and seem to have organized a little better for this years event and now think they have some pull in deciding what, if anything, will be sold at the PBB. They have NO emperical data to base their fears on; no hard facts or examples of how their business is suffering. They are only taking into consideration the sales they will lose on brand new, full-retail-price paying customers for a few items like ropes and shoes. They aren't considering the whole picture, and if they manage to put the kibosh on sales at the PBB this year, not only will I not attend, but I'll do all of my future business with gearexpress.com.
Feel free to join me in my protest if this really comes to pass.
Ed
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lidosis
Oct 11, 2004, 7:21 PM
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Kate
You could make a killing selling those paper bags at 5. You will defintly have to hook me up for free. I would think that the dry would bring more attention than no gear sales, maybe I don't have these online ppl figured out yet.
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voriand
Oct 11, 2004, 7:22 PM
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So where is PBB going to make its money if there is no vendors?
1. I doubt sponsers foot the entire bill.
2. No vendor = no spectators. I am not going to spend money to see other compete. I will spend money on entrance fee if there is potential to score some really good impulse buys.
Who goes to a state fair just to see the blue ribbon cow?
Bring on the vendors.
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crimpandgo
Oct 11, 2004, 7:23 PM
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Simple fact is, people want to buy products at the best price they can get. doesnt matter if its at the PBB or online or their local store. The local stores are having troubles staying price competative. I dont think the cause of this is the PBB. I just haven't found that many "KIller" deals there. What I see is a lot of "end of year closeout" deals that all stores end up doing at least once or twice a year.
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