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pooks
Oct 10, 2004, 5:44 PM
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i've noticed that whenever there is a post about improving hand or forearm strength, most replies advise not to train too much too soon or risk injuring a weak tendon. as a beginner, i am curious as to how long it generally takes for tendons to strengthen. i have only been climbing two months, and simply climbing has improved my muscle strength tremendously. i read, however, that tendon strength improves less quickly than muscle, so when is it safe to start training specifically for hand and forearm strength?
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 11, 2004, 3:33 AM
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It depends.
Genetics, type of climbing, type of rock, personal strengths and weaknesses, etc.
For most beginners, climbing provides all of the tendon training that the body can handle.
This is a guestimate, but I would venture that it takes between two and four years to develop a good balance in strengths.
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texasclimber
Oct 11, 2004, 4:03 AM
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"It Depends" is the right answer, but I respectfuly disagree that it takes 2-4 years! I started using a hangboard within a year of climbing and years later have had no (knock on wood) serious tendon problems. Just train slowly. If you want to train, start doin good pockets on a hangboard only and work on lock offs and pull ups. Core strength (abs) are always helpful too. Climbing can be a life long sport, so don't rush, get yourself hurt, and hate yourself for it!
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 11, 2004, 4:41 AM
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It isn't so much that we disagree.
My numbers come from the fact that most of the people I have known that have blown out tendons for the first time have done it in their first 2 to 4 years of climbing.
I blew out mine at 4 and 6. Mainly because of climbing vertical rock.
Probably close to half of the really strong climbers out there have chronic tendon problems. Often because of things they did when they were first starting out.
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eshi-1
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Oct 11, 2004, 6:51 AM
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I don't know guys. I don't think the time is a big factor here. I feel that what kind of training you get into have a bigger effect on this.
If you just started climbing and you get on a 3 times a week training program that is based on 2 hours a day on small crimpy holds - You are most likely to end up with problems faster than you could think of.
But I know that you can start training right away if you do it right.
Go big, slow and easy and build a progressive program to yourself.
Start with no more than once a week. Use the jugs on hangboards or big open-hand holds when using system or campus boards. Use your legs for those too - Don't start hanging on hands only too soon.
Don't jump to smaller holds or fingers and pockets too soon, even if you think you feel stronger within a few weeks.
Remember, slow and steady can win this race too...
:wink: Hope this helps,
E
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overlord
Oct 11, 2004, 9:53 AM
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i have started using a hangboard after 2 years of climbing. the key is to start slowly.
tendons really need a long time to strengthen.
but since you have only been climbing for 2 months, i strongly advise that you focus on technique. strength shouldnt be a real facto at your experience level.
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greyicewater
Oct 11, 2004, 12:21 PM
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i've been climbing for almost a year, and i can definately say that i can feel my tendons becoming stronger, with about a three month break in the year that i've been climbing. i climbed for about eight months, took three or four months off, yes, due to a tendon injury; but since i came back i've felt much stronger than i have before. my advice to you and everyone else who is in this forum... ALWAYS WARM UP AND STRETCH!!! i can't stress that enough. that's how i popped my tendon, or whatever it is that happens to them when they get injured... all the strength basically comes with time. climb to climb, not to worry about strength (in the beginning anyway), it will all come in time. you WILL notice it...
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grayrock
Oct 11, 2004, 12:36 PM
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Your muscle strength increases about 3 times faster than your tendon strength. You can tell when you are over training/climbing when your tendons get sore. When that happens, get more rest between climbing days, don't be in a hurry to climb higher numbers even though you feel strong enough, and worm-up the muscles/tendons before working out or climbing.
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hyhuu
Oct 12, 2004, 1:08 PM
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Once you can consistently climb 5.11 then specific training could be useful to move up the grade but not absolutely neccessary.
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rockprodigy
Oct 12, 2004, 1:39 PM
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I'm glad to see a lot of people taking stabs in the dark...after all, that's what the internet is all about. You all might consider doing a little research, look for the book "One Move Too Many". It's written by doctors who are climbers and have been studying climbing injuries for two decades.
I don't have it with me right now, so I'm reluctant to give out too many numbers, but I do recall that they said that bone actually responds to training faster than tendons do! I believe bone will start to grow after a year or so, but tendons take upwards of 2 years. Other soft tissue (ligaments, etc.) can take up to 6 years. I'll try to post the info when I can get to it. If anyone else has that book, please look it up, it's in Chapter 2 or 3, I think Chapter 2.
Alternatively, muscle only takes 3 weeks to start to grow. The so-called "tendon" injuries that you guys are describing are most likely pulley injuries. If you ruptured a tendon you would need surgery. Those pulleys are the tissue that takes so long to grow, which is why so many finger injuries occur in the pulleys.
I would recommend climbing casually for at least 2 years before doing any serious training. There would be very little benefit from training when you are that new to climbing because that is a lot of time spent not working on technique. Furthermore, you're just asking to get injured.
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greyicewater
Oct 12, 2004, 4:06 PM
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i don't know... i've been climbing for only a year and i'm training hard without injury... i can positively say that my tendons are becoming stronger and stronger. i do it safe though, without taking days off. i climb pretty hard almost every day. i'll climb outside on a beautiful day, then hit the gym that night. it goes different with everyone. warming up does prevent injuries. yes, my tendon injury was a pully injury. i wasn't climbing smart, i never warmed up or stretched before a climbing session. i regret it gratefully, but you learn from your mistakes, and i'm telling you this to prevent you from injuring yourself. it sucks not being able to climb.
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dirtineye
Oct 12, 2004, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: I'm glad to see a lot of people taking stabs in the dark...after all, that's what the internet is all about. You all might consider doing a little research, look for the book "One Move Too Many". It's written by doctors who are climbers and have been studying climbing injuries for two decades.
Now that sounds like a book to have. Thanks for pointing it out.
OK, Amazon never heard of it, got any more info on the authors or publisher?
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grayrock
Oct 12, 2004, 4:19 PM
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I was watching the DVD Frequent Flyers last night with Boone Speed and Abe Carrion (sp?) and one new climber was so enthused watching the big boys make it look easy he had to try it. You could hear it go when he poped 2 tendons in his hand.
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rockprodigy
Oct 12, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: OK, Amazon never heard of it, got any more info on the authors or publisher?
Amazon doesn't have it. I got it from Mountain Gear, and as far as I know, it's currently the only source. (http://www.mgear.com)
In reply to: i can positively say that my tendons are becoming stronger and stronger.
Unless you pull your tendon out of your arm and load it with weights until failure, I don't think you can say that your tendons are becoming stronger. You don't know how strong your tendons are until you break them.
Regardless of that, your tendons are probably not the issue, it's the pulleys that are far more likely to get injured. The best thing you can do to prevent injury, if you insist on training hard so soon after starting climbing, is to learn to let go when your feet pop off of holds. Although someone who is so intense about training, isn't likely to do this.
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rockprodigy
Oct 12, 2004, 4:44 PM
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Hmm..., I just read your post more carefully.
In reply to: ...i'm training hard without injury... i do it safe though, without taking days off. i climb pretty hard almost every day.
I hate to break it to you, but you are not doing it "safe". For your own good, you should consider altering your training program. Don't take my word for it. Ask around, specifically talk to older climbers who have been around the block. You haven't been climbing long enough to develop any "overuse syndromes". You're injury was probably a trauma injury as a result of one particular move. The reason I say this is because if you keep climbing like this, you will develop the overuse syndromes.
This is really bad:
In reply to: i've been climbing for almost a year, with about a three month break in the year that i've been climbing. i climbed for about eight months, took three or four months off, yes, due to a tendon injury
You got injured within 8 months of starting climbing, and yet you think you're training "safe". This is exactly what I am talking about. Your forearm muscles will grow very fast, especially when you first start climbing, yet it takes the supporting structure several years to catch up. That is why it is so easy to get injured when you first start out. If you want to have a long climbing career, start working in some rest days!
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greyicewater
Oct 12, 2004, 5:02 PM
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i popped the tendon in my finger from one move. i was moving out of a mono pocket, which did cause me to have to slow down... and the three month break wasn't entirely injury, personal reasons account also. i do take days off when i feel the need, and once in a while i'll take a week off. i feel completely fine; no injuries, no pains and no complains. i'm actually on a couple of days break now. people just have different ways of training their body. i take care of myself, i warm up, i stretch, i take days off when i feel the need to. but, i do appreciate the warnings, and i will be careful.
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pooks
Oct 12, 2004, 7:34 PM
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sigh. i guess i'll just have to learn patience.
Thanks very much for the help. :)
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rkhali
Oct 12, 2004, 8:02 PM
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Here is a link to the book:
One Move too Many
Cheers,
Raymond
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bobd1953
Oct 12, 2004, 8:02 PM
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bobd1953 moved this thread from Beginners to Technique & Training.
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rockprodigy
Oct 13, 2004, 2:24 PM
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OK, so I have the actual figures now.
This is from the table "Time of reaction to stress of different body tissues"
muscle: 3 weeks
bone: 1 year
Tendon: 1-2 years
Ligaments: more than 2 years
Cartilage: 3-5 years
The pulleys in your fingers, which are the most common finger/hand injuries are ligaments which take more than 2 years to grow following the beginning of training.
Warming up is critical because the ligaments, tendons and cartilage, which are the most susceptible to injury also suffer from reduced circulation of blood flow. Therefore, just because your muscles are warm, your tendons, and pulleys are not necessarily warm.
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fluxus
Oct 13, 2004, 3:41 PM
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I believe the book in question can be purchased through Petzl,
The thing about this thread is that the question being asked has rarely if ever been researched from a climbing point of view. Rockprodogy can you list the refrences the authors make to climbing specific research? I think a question like this is definately one for the scientific comunity. I know of some studies but they are more or less over views of published data from non climbing studies.
peace
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grayrock
Oct 13, 2004, 3:52 PM
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After a few weeks layoff I notice significan reduction in strength/stamina. Do the tendons and other suporting structure wayne more slowly?
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rockprodigy
Oct 13, 2004, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: Do the tendons and other suporting structure wayne more slowly?
This is a very good question. It would stand to reason that if they take longer to hypertrophy, they take longer to atrophy. If not, then your muscles would always be stronger than your tendons, and there would be no way for them to catch up. My hope is that through years of training, your tendons can accumulate strength at a comparable level to your muscles...does that make sense?
In reply to: Rockprodogy can you list the refrences the authors make to climbing specific research? I think a question like this is definately one for the scientific comunity. I know of some studies but they are more or less over views of published data from non climbing studies.
Actually they cite a number of climbing specific studies, and seem to have done some of their own research for the book. Unfortunately they don't cite references in the actual text, so I don't know which studies apply to which parts of the book. Another problem is that their References section is not translated into english...many of the article titles are in german and french. Here are a few titles that may apply to this discussion:
"Upper limb injuries in elite rock climbers"
"Soft tissue injury in extreme rock climbers"
"Radiographic changes in the hands of rock climbers"
Anecdotally, they mention a study the authors did where they did MRI's of climbers fingers and hands and measured hypertrophy of the bone, tendons and ligaments by measuring the size of the tissue. This might be the article they are citing, but who knows?
"Die MRT von Hand und Handgelenk bei Sportkletterern"....???anyone know german well?
This method of gaging strength by measuring hypertrophy begs the question if size is directly proportional to strength in this tissue. In a homogenous material (like aluminum), it is, but I'm not so sure it is in human tissue. We all know that "recruitment" training can increase strength without increasing the size of the muscle, so it is possible that our tendons get stronger without getting bigger, but as I said before, the only way to test this would be to pull it until it breaks.
All in all, the majority of their references have "climbing" or "sportkletteren" in the title, so I think this information is very climbing specific. It definitely underscores the fact that the europeans are far more advanced in climbing science that americans are. They even address the fact that there is very little climbing specific research available, but they seem to have done a very thorough job of finding it.
It is a great read, but I wouldn't read Chapter 2 (Injuries) immediately after eating....
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waynski
Oct 13, 2004, 5:10 PM
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One thing that none of you mention, especially the doctors, is proper nutrition and especially hydration. Dehydrated tissue damages easier, and stays that way longer. Arthritis eventually sets in. Research is lacking, and existing studies usually neglect this factor, but some promising studies have been done. An ounce of prevention...
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fluxus
Oct 13, 2004, 9:45 PM
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In reply to: Actually they cite a number of climbing specific studies, and seem to have done some of their own research for the book. Unfortunately they don't cite references in the actual text, Here are a few titles that may apply to this discussion: "Upper limb injuries in elite rock climbers" "Soft tissue injury in extreme rock climbers" "Radiographic changes in the hands of rock climbers" All in all, the majority of their references have "climbing" or "sportkletteren" in the title, so I think this information is very climbing specific. It definitely underscores the fact that the europeans are far more advanced in climbing science that americans are. They even address the fact that there is very little climbing specific research available, but they seem to have done a very thorough job of finding it. .
The refrences you mention are also listed as refrences in the main article I have on the subject. titled "Hand Injuries in Rock Climbing: Reaching the right treatment" by Jebson and Steyers. The thing is, as far as I can tell none of this actually addresses the issue of strength or strengthening of tendons, it deals with the type and nature of climbing injuries which is a very different topic.
I don't think the english speaking world is quite as lame as you say since I can find refrences to 10+ articles that touch on the subject in english. Granted this isn't a lot of research by any standard but I'm suprised at how climbing research is appearing in the mainstream of movement science and sports medicine every now and then. Who knows maybe in 100 years they may produce some information that we can use in training. :roll:
peace
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