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pt
Oct 16, 2004, 12:16 AM
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I usually don't pay too much attention to all the bolting controversies that go on around here, but I just had to say something after climbing a route yesterday. I was in the South St. Vrain Canyon in Colorado (I think on Scout Rock). It is the first wall as you enter the canyon and you can literally belay from your car. Anyway I saw a crack that had bolts the whole way up it. I actually climbed the route to see if it could be protected without the bolts. It started with 5.4 slab climbing protected by 3 bolts in 20 feet. It then turned to 5.7 crack climbing with bolts every 5 feet. At the start of the crack I was standing on a 3 foot wide ledge and I could actually touch two bolts, one with each hand. The crack could easily be protected with cams and the rock was bomber. It is probably the worst case of overbolting and bolting next to a perfectly good crack I have ever seen. It is one of the few times I really felt like chopping a route. What is the excuse of the first ascentionist? What has this sport come to when people can't even climb a 5.7 crack without a bolt every 5 feet?
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 16, 2004, 12:46 AM
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I usualy don't advocate chopping bolts but that sounds like a pretty clear cut case. Bolt next to crack, Chop, Chop.
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earlethesquirrel
Oct 16, 2004, 12:47 AM
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I know exactly which rock/route you're talking about. I climbed there on a beautiful balmy evening this past summer. On the 1st climb, my bud was clipping a bolt every four feet. I was tempted to dare him to skip every other bolt but kept my mouth shut (I don't like to be a back-seat belayer)...I led the route to the left and was amazed @ the ridiculous # of bolts. I skipped a bunch on the initial slab but clipped the ones next to the crack. Does this make me a hypocrite (I left my crack gear in the car)? I would not have had a problem w/ no bolts on the whole thing. Definitely a goofy route!
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joshklingbeil
Oct 16, 2004, 1:04 AM
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Strip those bolts of their hangers. And when thay put new ones on strip them again until you got like 100 hangers. This will take your mind off their $h!t route & would be a good way to show these freeking gumbys a thing or two. Yeah man that would be cool 8^) ....
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shorty
Oct 16, 2004, 1:09 AM
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In reply to: It is one of the few times I really felt like chopping a route. What is the excuse of the first ascentionist? Good question. But to whom are you addressing? Have you attempted to contact the FA party and discuss the issue directly with them? (Please note that my knowledge of the canyon is limited, as I have only a few days in St. Vrain and none on the route in question.) I'm not a fan of placing bolts where they're not necessary, but I'm also not a fan of calling to arms those with crowbars until all the facts are in. One thing worse than "bolt vs. no bolt" is "access vs. no access". Pulling these bolts ASAP may solve the first issue in the short run, but possibly at the expense of the second over the long run should a bolt war ensue.
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pt
Oct 16, 2004, 1:56 AM
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I have no idea who did the first ascent, this route is not listed any place that I am aware of. Who would want to claim the first ascent? As far as access is concerned, I think that indescriminate bolting is one sure way to get climbing areas closed by land managers.
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allarounder
Oct 16, 2004, 2:09 AM
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http://climbingboulder.com/rock/db/south_saint_vrain_canyon/scout_rock/cornered.html Look before you speak. FA Richard Wright. Read his comments. Why are people from Vermont and AZ advocating chopping routes in Colorado? Ya'll aren't exactly locals, in tune with local ethics, or local FAists.
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bobd1953
Oct 16, 2004, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: Good question. But to whom are you addressing? Have you attempted to contact the FA party and discuss the issue directly with them? (Please note that my knowledge of the canyon is limited, as I have only a few days in St. Vrain and none on the route in question.) That would be the smart thing to do.
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asandh
Oct 16, 2004, 2:42 AM
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:)
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far_east_climber
Oct 16, 2004, 2:52 AM
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I would agree with the chopping, it sounds excessive. However, what would be more constructive is if you could find the bolter/route setter and ask him/her why it was done and ask if they would kindly get rid of the bolts. That way, the bolter will learn (as they either disagree with bolting ethics or are unaware of the rules) to keep an easily protectable route bolt-free. Is there any way you could do it? I understand why you want to get rid of the bolts, but I always think that someone took alot of time and money to set up the route.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 16, 2004, 3:04 AM
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These are long time colorado climbers, and the crag is all bolted that way, by the same people. Bit to much like boulder's sport park for my tastes. All I can say is that most of my colorado climbing friends do not like sport park. Don't think there is much point in breaking out the crowbar, but these people do need to be discouraged.
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bobd1953
Oct 16, 2004, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: Is this what Colorado climbing has sunk to ? So bolts every 3 feet next to cracks is now the "local ethic" ? I'm from CA and never been there, but if you guys don't have the balls to remove bolts as flagrant as this, just give me directions and I'll be glad to do it for you ... Stay in CA, you have your hands full there.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 16, 2004, 3:22 AM
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I was thinking that I might be bored enough with climbing to find a need to break out a bosch and drill some routes. Now I am thinking about breaking out a crowbar instead. I have seen hundreds of bolts that would qualify for chopping. The rule is; if you can skip clipping it, you can chop it. I tend to only chop bolts when I can patch it in such a way as to make it hard to see that there was ever a bolt there.
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slobmonster
Oct 16, 2004, 4:05 AM
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Ethics are not "local."
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bobd1953
Oct 16, 2004, 4:08 AM
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In reply to: Now I am thinking about breaking out a crowbar instead. I have seen hundreds of bolts that would qualify for chopping. The rule is; if you can skip clipping it, you can chop it. Who's rule is that? Ken Nichols??? You both seems to be on the same wavelength.
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reno
Oct 16, 2004, 4:16 AM
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It's funny, really... people who have never seen the route mentioned making judgements on the properness of the bolts. Let's examine, for a minute, the possible issues: The Original Poster said something about a protectable crack. Is the pro solid? Is the OP knowledgeable about gear? (not saying he is or isn't...we are all familiar with the potential for misleading people on the web.) Is it truly well protected, or is "protectable" defined by a green Alien and #3 HB Off-set stopper every 20 feet? How well can this be protected? What are the conditions of the bolts? Are they new, good condition, 5 piece Rawl bolts? Are they rusty, manky, 1960's quarter=inch button head Leeper hanger bolts? Unless you have climbed there, you don't know. And if you don't know, then your speculation is useless.
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anykineclimb
Oct 16, 2004, 4:28 AM
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This is from climbing boulder: Richard M. Wright said: In reply to: A little philosophical digression on clips off the deck - I would agree that the clips off the deck on this route are not needed by folks climbing in double digits. In putting in the bolts, I'm constantly debating the appropriateness of placing fixed hardware. Personally, I have adopted the philosophy that the route should be constructed for the person who is leading at their limit at grade of the climb. But, God Only Knows whether this is a reasonable philosophy or not; so help me here, please. If I prepared the climb just for myself, then it would look very different; I have even bolted one or two routes ropeless with nothing but hooks, a couple of camming units, and a pair of slings; this is solo territory for someone who almost never does it anymore. However, even on climbs of this moderate nature, I have watched truly terrifying epics unfold, and this usually represents someone getting started on the lead or moving up a grade or two. Twenty years ago, we approached climbing a little differently than the way it is done today. We would seek out the easiest things that would get us started at a given grade, all on trad, and the more difficult routes would await for our skill to catch up. While that is not a lot different from what we all do today, we also have a hugely burgeoning group of moderate climbers with no interest in radical mind control but an interest in climbing close to their limit and on a route that is as reasonably safe as can be achieved. We do not have to put up routes for this group of people, however, if you look at what is being climbed at nearly any area, then these moderate routes will invariably have parties on them, with the gorgeous difficult climbs on the same cliffs sitting untouched. Personally, I believe that we have room for all types of climbers and so some routes get established for moderate or first-time leaders. Well there you have it! This was said in 2001 even. so theres no longer any speculation on the "whys" its bolted the way it is.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 16, 2004, 4:38 AM
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In reply to: Who's rule is that? Just about everyone who I have ever climbed with. It climbing 101 material.
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bobd1953
Oct 16, 2004, 5:07 AM
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In reply to: bobd1953 wrote: Who's rule is that? Just about everyone who I have ever climbed with. It climbing 101 material. Must be a small group of climbers that you have climbed with.
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asandh
Oct 16, 2004, 5:27 AM
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:)
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 16, 2004, 5:58 AM
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In reply to: Must be a small group of climbers that you have climbed with. That is what happens when you try to maintain a high standard of conduct.
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curt
Oct 16, 2004, 6:35 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Must be a small group of climbers that you have climbed with. That is what happens when you try to maintain a high standard of conduct. Two RC.com moderators engaged in an unwinnable pissing contest with each other. Who the hell do you guys think you are anyway--rrrAdam and roughster? Hahahahahaha. I have climbed with both you guys multiple times and can honestly tell you that if you ever meet, you will most likley become good friends. Your real life climbing philosophies are not really so far apart. Curt
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pheenixx
Oct 16, 2004, 6:37 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Must be a small group of climbers that you have climbed with. That is what happens when you try to maintain a high standard of conduct. Oh-oh...let the spraying begin. :roll: I read what the FA party said - but did I miss the words of whether there were the options of a crack closeby.? I agree with Reno and don't think it's possible to accurately comment without 1st climbing the route. I'm assuming the person who started this forum did climb it..?? Will this forum turn into a flame-war between "keeping trad routes pure" and "sport climbers wanting it their way"...yawnn :roll:
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karmaklimber
Oct 16, 2004, 6:54 AM
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It would have been nice to see a photo of the climb.
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