Forums: Climbing Information: Regional Discussions:
(Tuscon) Moving into a Oven?
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Regional Discussions

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


zozo


Nov 5, 2004, 7:01 AM
Post #1 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 3, 2004
Posts: 3431

(Tuscon) Moving into a Oven?
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Let's just say for kicks I was to move to Tuscon...What would the climbing be like. What are the best areas around? Highest peaks?

Dave


Partner pt


Nov 5, 2004, 7:13 AM
Post #2 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 400

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Tucson is awesome! I lived there for five years and I loved it there. The city is surrounded by mountains and the Sonoran Desert is incredibly beautiful. Summers are hot but you can go up to the top of Mt. Lemmon at 9000ft and climb at the reef of rock, rappel rock, or the ravens. 8-9 months out of the year are great. I usually climbed at Mt. Lemmon and the Cochise Stronghold but there are other sport areas around. Mt. Lemmon has an incredible array of sport and traditional lines on featured granite. The Stronghold is simply incredible and you have to experience it for yourself. The mountain biking and road biking is good around Tucson and the hiking is great. The town is nice with good places to eat and it is affordable compared to here on the front range.


dingus


Nov 5, 2004, 7:14 AM
Post #3 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I don't and haven't lived there. But I have been there and in the Valley of the Sun many times on business.

3 months of the year you will be living in a burning hell. But the trade off is nine months of nirvanna. The Santa Catalinas have some of the best desert climbing there is. Mt Lemmon is a paradise! Cool, small city with a wild west history. The surrounding sonoran desert is one of the coolest places I have ever been fortunate enough to play in. Tell you what... if I didn't ski? I might have already moved.

Didn't look to see where you are from. All my glowing praise assumes you know at least what the desert is like, and what a desert city looks like, and perhaps what a Mexican looks like. Remember this is Old Mexico we're talking here and those brown folks you see where all there first!

Tucson proper isn't the greatest city I've ever visited. It has a sizable barrio and a sizable rich Sun City seniors crowd too, and they don't mix all that well. I like the whole teeming ethnic thing personally.

There is a large climber community there.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Nov 5, 2004, 7:36 AM
Post #4 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Twas looking for this earlier and couldn't figure out a valid search criteria. Finally got it.

Here is some backcountry and S. Arizona flavor:

http://rockclimbing.com/...p?t=55194&highlight=

Hope you like it. It's close enough for government work.

DMT


zozo


Nov 5, 2004, 7:44 AM
Post #5 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 3, 2004
Posts: 3431

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:

3 months of the year you will be living in a burning hell.

When you say "burning hell" is it metaphorical or more like a literal biblical interpretation? More Joycean or Dante would you say?


smeargle


Nov 5, 2004, 7:48 AM
Post #6 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 30, 2004
Posts: 24

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I moved down the Mesa (outside Phx) a couple of years ago and I love it down here. The first summer felt like the exhaust vents of hell had been opened, but after that you get used to it and 50 starts to feel chilly! Tucson is a great place though, there is tons of stuff to do outdoors, mountain biking is great. I have only climbed on Mt. Lemmon, but it was some of the best climbing I have done yet. Unless you are completely skiing or boarding, I think it is a great place to live.

When I lived in Northern AZ and Vermont I snowboarded alot, since moving down here, it has been reduced to going a couple of times a year, but it is worth it as I got into climbing and have started mt biking a ton more.


dingus


Nov 5, 2004, 7:51 AM
Post #7 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

3 months of the year you will be living in a burning hell.

When you say "burning hell" is it metaphorical or more like a literal biblical interpretation? More Joycean or Dante would you say?

Dante. Pretty much expect 90 days over 100 degrees.

But also expect a pleasant 85 when the rest of the nation is shivering at 40.

Honestly, as long as you expect it the heat is tolerable.

DMT


zozo


Nov 5, 2004, 7:55 AM
Post #8 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 3, 2004
Posts: 3431

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks People,

Didnt mean to mispell tooscion, or tuushon, or tucseon. I'll get it right eventually! :)

I might check it out in a few weeks, if anyone wants to do some climbing shoot me a pm.

Dave


gds


Nov 5, 2004, 7:59 AM
Post #9 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 710

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

3 months of the year you will be living in a burning hell.

When you say "burning hell" is it metaphorical or more like a literal biblical interpretation? More Joycean or Dante would you say?

None of the above!
Tucson is a great place to live and the summers are not any worse than places in the upper midwest. Yes it gets up to 110F (rarely) but nights and early mornings are in the 70's with low humidity. Tucson folks are very active inthe summers and you'll find climbers, hikers, and cyclists out and about by 6 a.m. We get out here every day of the year and only have to be reasonable about using altitude and time of day to find a comfortable environment.

And as to the comment by a poster that hte retired folks and the barrio folks don't mix well. Nonsense! Tucson has less ethnic/racial tension than any place I've seen.


reno


Nov 5, 2004, 7:59 AM
Post #10 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

3 months of the year you will be living in a burning hell.

When you say "burning hell" is it metaphorical or more like a literal biblical interpretation? More Joycean or Dante would you say?

Dante. Pretty much expect 90 days over 100 degrees.

But also expect a pleasant 85 when the rest of the nation is shivering at 40.

Honestly, as long as you expect it the heat is tolerable.

Tolerable is about right. It ain't pretty, and if you wanna keep in shape, you'll have to make adjustments. When I got to Tempe in late May, I quickly found myself waking at 0400 to go for a jog, then back home before the sun rose. Spend the rest of the day indoors (or making a mad dash from one air conditioned locale to another.) Days off were spent driving to Flagstaff (amazing how cool and comfortable mid 80s can feel.)

That whole "but it's a dry heat" is crap. 116 is HOT, dry or not. Stand in front of a hair blowdryer, and you'll get an idea of "dry heat" and wind combined.

But Dingus is right... the rest of the year is perfect. It's November, I'm climbing outdoor rock three or four times a week, and there's no sign of slowing down.

Still and all, I wish I was back in Colorado. I miss it there.


dingus


Nov 5, 2004, 8:01 AM
Post #11 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Tucson has less ethnic/racial tension than any place I've seen.

Didn't imply that there was tension. I said they don't mix well. They don't.

It's an economic thing as well as cultural.

Cheers
DMT


chossmonkey


Nov 5, 2004, 8:02 AM
Post #12 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I haven't lived in Tucson, but I think it wouldn't be too bad. If you have a sweet job lined up go! Like others have said Mt.lemmon is just out of town and is a great place to escape the summer heat. There are plenty of other areas not to far away as well. There are many granite backcountry areas not far away, as well as sport climbing in other areas. While it wouldn't be my first choice in the S.West, it would be pretty high on the list. Just remember, "It's a dry heat." :wink:


gds


Nov 5, 2004, 8:03 AM
Post #13 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 710

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

And jsut a comment about the Arizona climates in general. Northern AZ, the Phoenix area, and Tucson areas are all very different. The comments from the folks around Phoenix are true--for Phoenix but not for Tucson. Tucson has much more moderate temps in the summer including large coold downs over night which simply doesn't happen in Phoenix.


crimpandgo


Nov 5, 2004, 8:35 AM
Post #14 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

3 months of the year you will be living in a burning hell.

When you say "burning hell" is it metaphorical or more like a literal biblical interpretation? More Joycean or Dante would you say?

Dante. Pretty much expect 90 days over 100 degrees.

But also expect a pleasant 85 when the rest of the nation is shivering at 40.

Honestly, as long as you expect it the heat is tolerable.

DMT

Actually it can get pretty cold out here in the desert. Since many of the climbing areas in the state are at high elevation, you can expect snow and very chillly weather. Flagstaff, Queen Creek and Mt Lemmon on the upper sites will be pretty chilly from Mid December to March. Fortunately, there are lower elevation alternative closer in town that will be balmy during the winter months. Enjoy if you do move down here. There are many places to climb all year round.


jbak


Nov 5, 2004, 8:40 AM
Post #15 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 63

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
And jsut a comment about the Arizona climates in general. Northern AZ, the Phoenix area, and Tucson areas are all very different. The comments from the folks around Phoenix are true--for Phoenix but not for Tucson. Tucson has much more moderate temps in the summer including large coold downs over night which simply doesn't happen in Phoenix.

Yes, Tucson is NOT Phoenix. Also be advised that many locals (the kind that spend the summer at Rifle) consider Tucson climbing to suck. Not enough steep stuff.


crimpandgo


Nov 5, 2004, 8:51 AM
Post #16 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
And jsut a comment about the Arizona climates in general. Northern AZ, the Phoenix area, and Tucson areas are all very different. The comments from the folks around Phoenix are true--for Phoenix but not for Tucson. Tucson has much more moderate temps in the summer including large coold downs over night which simply doesn't happen in Phoenix.

Yes, Tucson is NOT Phoenix. Also be advised that many locals (the kind that spend the summer at Rifle) consider Tucson climbing to suck. Not enough steep stuff.

This probably needs to be qualified a little? I assume you are referring to expert level climbing? In my opinion, there are many great routes for the moderate level climbers in Tucson. Many that can be climbed all year round, if you stay lower on the mountain. There are so many climbs. I know people that climb in the expert catagory and they still enjoy climbing the more moderate routes.


fracture


Nov 5, 2004, 9:04 AM
Post #17 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 12, 2003
Posts: 1814

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Mt Lemmon is a paradise!

...or used to be.

I was back visiting Tucson a few months ago (that's where I'm from originally), and even getting up on the mountain during the week is a huge pain in the ass now due to construction. At least the fire closures are done; but the damage is definitely evident (I was up at rappeler's rock, and there's lots of burnt trees and such).

I haven't been to many crags on Mt. Lemmon, but it does look like (from the book) there's not very much hard sport stuff. Like someone above said: if you like harder sport routes, it's probably not so great an area. But if you like trad or moderate sport climbs (munchkinland), it's probably pretty cool. There's even a few semi-long multipitch trad routes.

Oh, and Gates Pass pretty much sucks. :lol:


jbak


Nov 5, 2004, 9:31 AM
Post #18 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 63

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
And jsut a comment about the Arizona climates in general. Northern AZ, the Phoenix area, and Tucson areas are all very different. The comments from the folks around Phoenix are true--for Phoenix but not for Tucson. Tucson has much more moderate temps in the summer including large coold downs over night which simply doesn't happen in Phoenix.

Yes, Tucson is NOT Phoenix. Also be advised that many locals (the kind that spend the summer at Rifle) consider Tucson climbing to suck. Not enough steep stuff.

This probably needs to be qualified a little? I assume you are referring to expert level climbing? In my opinion, there are many great routes for the moderate level climbers in Tucson. Many that can be climbed all year round, if you stay lower on the mountain. There are so many climbs. I know people that climb in the expert catagory and they still enjoy climbing the more moderate routes.

I thought I did qualify it. Let me make it clearer...Rifle types (high end sport climbers) generally like steep stuff. Tucson doesn't have much.


zen_climber


Nov 5, 2004, 10:34 AM
Post #19 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 5

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I lived in Tucson for about six years, that's where I learned to climb. I just moved to Colo. three months ago. In addition to what others have mentioned there are new climbing areas popping up, including a new area called "the dry" for difficult sport climbing. There is not much in the way of multi-pitch right around Tucson, a couple of two or three pitch climbs in Cochise stronghold and Mt Lemmon.

This is a good climbing website for Tucson: http://www.tucsonclimbers.org/
Also, Dr Topo (drtopo.com) has some good guides.

The town is great lots of great restaurants and coffee shops. It has all the ameneties of a big city, especially with the univ of Arizona there, but it has a real small town feel. Check out the 4th ave area, Tucson's version of the pearl street mall in Boulder, only smaller and with real homless people. I don't drink anymore so I'm not an expert on Tucson's night life but check out the Cowpony on sunday night, good times. Also, this is one of the best places in the country to ride a motorcycle, it's riding weather all year round.

Speaking of the weather, you get three months of heat in exchange for 9 months of beautiful weather. Summer is a great time to for climbing trips to other parts of the country. Unless you travel, you will probably never wear long pants again.


crimpandgo


Nov 5, 2004, 10:39 AM
Post #20 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jbak,

someone not familiar with Rifle might not know what you are talking about. So, I added some qualification. For you "Rifle" types, feel free to ignore.


Partner xclimber


Nov 5, 2004, 11:24 AM
Post #21 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 426

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
There is not much in the way of multi-pitch right around Tucson, a couple of two or three pitch climbs in Cochise stronghold and Mt Lemmon.

Zen, Zen, of what do you speak? Was that 6.5 pitch, 900' route I did in the Stronghold last weekend simply an illusion...? You are correct about Lemmon, but the Stronghold has a lot of multi-pitch.

x


billiebob


Nov 5, 2004, 11:53 AM
Post #22 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 32

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have a couple of comments on the climate and climbing around tucson..

The climate:

Depending on the season, you choose where you want to climb.
Summers are hardest. If you like trad routes you go to the summit areas of Mt Lemmon. If you like sport routes, you go to Enchanted Tower, NM or the sport areas on top of Mt. Lemmon.

The majority of Mt. Lemmon climbs are crimpy vertical single pitch sport routes with a median grade of about 10c or d. There are a few overhung routes in the 5.11 and 5.12 range. The climbing tends to be technical and interesting to problem solvers. Some crags (like Chimney Rock) offer really great moderate trad climbing. You could count the number of overhanging jug fests on one hand.

There are some longer sport and trad routes near the summit of Mt. Lemmon. There are more serious multi-pitch trad routes at Reef of Rock, which is best climbed during summer between rainstorms.

Backcountry Rockclimbing: This I think is the greatest asset of the Tucson area. Cochise Stronghold (up to 6 pitches) Mendoza Canyon (up to 10 pitches) and Baboquivari Peak (up to 13 pitches) offer really fantastic granite sport and trad climbing in breathtaking desert settings. There are seasonal access issues with each of these areas, and the approaches can take some scouting out and a medium-clearance vehicle.

If you're into backcountry trad adventure, there are several huge (1000 feet or so) granite domes within a two or three hour hike of the trailheads near Mt. Lemmon, such as Leviathan Dome and Table Mountain.


As far as a home base type area, Tucson is 6 hours from Joshua tree, 8 hours from Enchanted Tower, 4 hours from Paradise Forks, 3 hours from Jacks Canyon, and I think 6 hours from Hueco.

Ouray is 7or 8 hours for the ice climber types.
Yosemite is a little far at 14 hours, but hey, at least you don't have to rent a car for two weeks.

It's a good place to be for a climber.


jbak


Nov 5, 2004, 12:47 PM
Post #23 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 63

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I have a couple of comments on the climate and climbing around tucson..

You could count the number of overhanging jug fests on one hand.

8 hours from Enchanted Tower

Due to recent developments, it now takes two hands :wink:

8 hours ?! Man you are one slow driver. I've done it in 3.5.


climbsomething


Nov 5, 2004, 1:26 PM
Post #24 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 8588

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
There is not much in the way of multi-pitch right around Tucson, a couple of two or three pitch climbs in Cochise stronghold and Mt Lemmon.
hahahahahahahahaha. That's good.

Anyway, the weather in Tucson is not as bad as you'd think. Oh, it's hot. You'll suffer getting back into your car after it's been shut up on a summer afternoon (put an oven mitt on your shifter). But the difference between Phoenix and Tucson is actually pretty huge. Phx frequently gets to, oh, 112, Tucson gets to about 104, 105. Trust me, those 7 degrees matter. June through mid-Sept is hot, but for the rest of the year, it's quite nice. I have really thin blood anymore. When it's 70, I snivel.

Tucson is great for the everyman rock climber. That means if you climb between, like, 5.6 and 5.11+ you won't run out of stuff to do for awhile. Bouldering is not our strong suit (it sucks). Sport is good if you like thin, technical stuff (it's true, if you are a 5.12 and up climber, or you just like your chalk bag to dangle when you climb, you're gonna get bored but quick here). Trad, I'd argue, is the best thing going LOCALLY, although sport weenies like myself can get by (we learn good footwork here, then go to Flag to get a pump!) Did you just say peaks? hehehe. There's tons of stellar hiking and backpacking nearby, but if you want rarified air, you can make the non-technical hike up to, oh, 10K feet without getting far from Tucson. The highest peaks in the state are up north. The state's high point is Mt. Humphreys, 12,600 feet (or so- it's less than 13, I know that), outside of Flagstaff. Anyway, Mt. Lemmon is our cragging epicenter. You can climb 365 days a year there (366 on a leap year), just follow the temps. The base is about 2200ft (ballpark) and the summit is 9100. The highway is more than 26 miles long. Tons o climbing.

Tucson is neat. You've got lots of Kappa Alpha Theta flesh to ogle, courtesy of the UofA. We have some bitchin', funky bars (The Buffet for dive bar mank, The Shelter for kitschy but not frat boy cool- bring your piggy bank). The drivers here are less likely to kill you than they are in Phoenix. Close to Mexico. I don't get the "small town feel" but we're not a soulless metropolis. However, I personally find 4th Ave as hackneyed as Pearl Street (they're Trustas there too. Go downtown or to the park by the bus stop by my house if you want real heroin junkies) and it reeks too much of patchouli, but that's just me.

Overall, Tucson is a really nice place. It can be hard leaving the Front Range for AZ, as I am sure Reno can tell you (I coulda told you that after spending 2 weeks up there!), but Tucson isn't bad. Come visit. I think you'll like it. We have some friendly souls here who know how to belay, look us up ;)


zozo


Nov 5, 2004, 1:53 PM
Post #25 of 28 (3712 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 3, 2004
Posts: 3431

Re: (Tuscon) Moving into a Oven? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Tucson is neat. You've got lots of Kappa Alpha Theta flesh to ogle, courtesy of the UofA.

When you say "lot's"...........Will I be running into lamp posts (Again)?

Not sure what the deal is. I may have an interview at a television station / post house. Of corse my first thought before anything else was "How will this affect my climbing?"

If I even go out for an interview I will be sure to look you all up.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Regional Discussions

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook