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akicebum


Nov 8, 2004, 3:06 PM
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You know what really chaps my a$$
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I climb with a good group of guys, and this dude showed up and started climbing with us a couple of months ago. Strong sport climber, big shiny trad rack and an absolute refusal to use. Around here we don't really have any beta for routes, it is pretty much just adventure climbing. This guy is an overly experienced climber, that is too chickensh*t to try anything interesting.
This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing. What happened to climbing for the adventure, the rush of the unknown. On every piece of equipment we buy it says "climbing is inherently dangerous." Danger is adventure, adventure is why we climb.
I have made a point of taking newbies trad climbing before sport climbing so they can feel the difference in freedom. To me it is mind altering. I just thought I would vent for a moment. Let me know if any of you have experience this phenomena.


slobmonster


Nov 8, 2004, 3:11 PM
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I am in complete agreement with you, as I read your post from the public computer in the climbing gym, in between sets.


themeanieokc


Nov 8, 2004, 3:14 PM
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I agree. The more trad routes i do the less i want to go back to the gym or climb from bolt to bolt.


dingus


Nov 8, 2004, 3:16 PM
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dmt


caughtinside


Nov 8, 2004, 3:19 PM
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He took my excuse and red pointed it!

:lol: :lol:
That happens to me all the time!


curt


Nov 8, 2004, 3:19 PM
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You been climbing with Herb, Dingus?

Curt


Partner xclimber


Nov 8, 2004, 3:20 PM
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Re: You know what really chaps my a$$ [In reply to]
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So many climbers, so few mentors = gym is the mentor. FIRST climb outdoors on real rock THEN go to the gym...

Same problem on the street. So many kids, so few dads (present) = kids mentor each other. Not good...


dingus


Nov 8, 2004, 3:26 PM
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You been climbing with Herb, Dingus?

Curt

I prefer climbing with herb to that 25 year old scotch you rave about.

OH! You meant Herb! Nope.

John is his name.

Haha.

DMT


pepsbandit


Nov 8, 2004, 3:35 PM
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I climb in the Gym during the week, but live for the good outdoors during the weekend. What are ya gonna do? I don't even own a car!


Owell, good post
cheers


pylonhead


Nov 8, 2004, 3:38 PM
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Some people are different than me. They like other things than I do. It's not they way I think climbing should be. Everyone should appreciate the same things I do.

Sure man.


Partner xclimber


Nov 8, 2004, 6:10 PM
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Go climb some good multi-pitch and offer to do all the leading. He'll either get interested, or feel like he's a ball and chain. At some point he'll probably offer to lead some of it...

Or, don't climb with the guy.

x


theflyingsquirrel


Nov 8, 2004, 6:45 PM
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i climb in a gym cus thats all i can do but there is nothin more in my life that i'd like than to have a trad rack an climb trad.... that an free soloing of coarse and whats so bad about herb huh


clausti


Nov 8, 2004, 7:02 PM
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So many climbers, so few mentors = gym is the mentor. FIRST climb outdoors on real rock THEN go to the gym...

Same problem on the street. So many kids, so few dads (present) = kids mentor each other. Not good...



Some of us didnt have the option to climb outdoors first. Some of us found even gym climbing as sanity in a town at basically at sea level as teenagers [which some of us still are.] Some of us had overprotective parents in high school who would barely let us climb at the gym let alone drive 6 ish hours to spend the weekend in the woods rock climbing with a bunch of individuals old enough to buy alchohol.

Some of us love the rock as sport climbers. Love it even though we've never been more than 90 feet off the ground doing it. Love it no matter how much we get ragged by the trad climbers. We in turn rag the boulderers. whilest we boulder.

akicebum wrote:
Danger is adventure, adventure is why we climb.



Admiring my genital fortitude at the "danger" I've been through is not really why I climb. Maybe sport climbing isn't as inherently dangerous as trad climbing; I'm not that knowledgable about the latter as I do not trad.

But climbing is also fluidity. It is balance and engergy. I can freak out that there is a spider, but I dont kill him, 'cause he and I are climbing the same rock. Which, by the way smells the same in the sunshine next to my bolt as your cam.

When I climbed in the gym and touched the ceiling I had done something every time that I hadn't thought I could do. And I don't think that rips the heart out of anything. When I set my draws to lead a sport route I'm still scared every time- till I leave the ground. And then it flows.

But I don't think it would flow if I was trying to bushwhack my way up some unknown "adventure climb." I'm glad that that does it for you. Maybe someday I'll be in that place. Just because this dude isn't in the same place as you doesn't mean he's less than you or that he's torn the heart out of anything.

Recognizing one's one limits should not be referred to as "a$$chapping" or "chickensh*t." Thank you all for reading this.


deschamps1000


Nov 8, 2004, 7:09 PM
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This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing.

Nope, it hasn't. It has simply introduced more people to the sport that never discover the soul behind the sport. The heart of climbing is still alive and strong in myself, you, and plenty of other people out there. Honestly, it'd be nice if everyone discovered that side of the sport, but what they experience or don't experience doesn't change my attitude in the least.
Of course, it helps to have partners that feel the same way...


kalcario


Nov 8, 2004, 7:31 PM
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*Some of us love the rock as sport climbers. Love it even though we've never been more than 90 feet off the ground doing it. Love it no matter how much we get ragged by the trad climbers.*

The people who bolted the sport routes you do are, probably, old-school trad climbers, who recognized long ago that sport climbing is the logical extension of what we did back in the 70's. Most of the guys I sport climb with on a weekly basis are way gnarly late-40-something big-wall veterans who appreciate sport climbing for what it is. Trad climbers who clown on sport climbing usually have paltry climbing resumes, are pathetically insecure, and have little or no real depth in the climbing world. The best trad climbers in the world are sport climbers.

But you still gotta buy a rack, learn how to use it, and work your way through the grades to call yourself a climber. I had to paid my dues, so you do, too. Sorry...


spikeyhair13


Nov 8, 2004, 7:43 PM
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I wouldnt say that the gym dosnt have adventure, BUT it isnt as great as outside. I agree with u, but not entirely. I say there is more adventure outside. but in a gym, an new route is exciting. Yes beta comes easily, but it still seems exciting to me.


clausti


Nov 8, 2004, 7:53 PM
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edit: delete.


climbhoser


Nov 8, 2004, 8:00 PM
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I'm sorry, it isn't the dedication to the sport or the value of the outdoors or anything of that kind that makes trad climbing superior. It;s the FREEDOM!!! It's the ADVENTURE!!!

It's the perfection. It's about being 500 feet off the deck and the only thing keeping you from going all the way down is YOU, not a fat, shiny bolt conveniently placed next to the chalky holds you're following.

It can't be explained, it can only be experienced...and yes, akiceclimber, it is mind altering.

I remember the first big multi-pitch trad climb I ever did. I had the unfortunate position of being a leader who didn't know how to lead (please nix any smack talk about how I'm lucky to have lived...what I placed I placed well, it just woulda been an ugly fall, not lethal). I almost shat myself...my friend did...I realized I was in WAAAAY over my head, and all I wanted was more. T'aint nothing like chilling out at a hanging belay halfway up the Redgarden wall looking around like a bird.


climbsomething


Nov 8, 2004, 8:03 PM
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Hmm... does akicebum get an award for being a mostly-coherent whiner, or for being a good troll? (trads bashing gym and sport climbers... tried but true)


Partner coldclimb


Nov 8, 2004, 8:04 PM
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In reply to:
This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing.

Nope, it hasn't. It has simply introduced more people to the sport that never discover the soul behind the sport. The heart of climbing is still alive and strong in myself, you, and plenty of other people out there. Honestly, it'd be nice if everyone discovered that side of the sport, but what they experience or don't experience doesn't change my attitude in the least.
Of course, it helps to have partners that feel the same way...

Word. It hasn't eliminated the old schoolers who live to climb, it's just brought in a lot more who don't, that's all. :)


kalcario


Nov 8, 2004, 8:17 PM
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*thats absolute drivel. and further more its bullshi*t. I don't have to do *anything* to "[earn] to call yourself a climber."

who the bloody hell are you to tell me if I can or cannot call myself a climber. I think you need a gut check.*

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber. There's a difference between somebody who "goes climbing" and being a climber. The ability to hit a nail with a hammer, no matter how artfully or with how much force, does not make you a carpenter. Yours truly sport climbs every weekend and wouldn't dream of wedging his extremities in a crack anymore, but only because I'm old and it hurts too much. You've gotta be versatile in 2 or more aspects (sport, trad, aid, alpine) to be legit, and no, bouldering doesn't count.

Sometimes having fun isn't fun. You'll see.


jakedatc


Nov 8, 2004, 8:18 PM
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Christina that was well written.. and i agree fully

being a sport climber the majority of the year i've found myself getting stronger, smoother, and more confident on the rock. During the Fall i boulder most of the time since i have no body fat and will freeze to death doing multi pitch in these temps :) so i build power, friendships and work on moves that will come up on sport and trad routes but with the convenience of being 5 feet off the ground to max out the number of times i can repeat them.

I also follow and lead trad, i have not been doing it very long so my gear skills are not the greatest. However :comma: when i cannot find the right piece right away or need to climb further to find a better placement i resort back to my climbing strengths to either lock off and find the right gear or power through a section and get a good stance

It seems that the trad climbers that think they are holier than thou with their "when in doubt run it out.. back in da day" effing attitude are narrow minded climbers that dont accept the growth of the sport and are trying to hold onto a vision like grandparents talking about how they didnt have TV and cars and shit. Saying Trad climbing is the only way to go is like saying that you should leave that mountain bike a Rigid.. forget all that suspension and then try to take to those downhills with as much speed and balls you do now.. haha sure the mtn bikes now look like motorcyles with pedals but they also go down some scary hard shit that the old school guys always looked at and said it couldnt be done
go lead Livin' astro trad, Jaws trad.. come on it's a project again.. show some of those guts and glory for the FA, Realization trad.. those pockets are kinda small for tricams eh?
there are thousands of routes around the world that would be left unclimbed without bolts.. how sad would that be

Personally, when i have the choice i'd rather be sport climbing. I like to climb hard stuff and i like to climb alot of routes. But i do keep things in perspective by bouldering and climbing trad. I believe in the complete package.. i may be able to sport climb well.. but i'd like to know if i went somewhere without it i'd be able to trad climb decent enough

gyms are here and are going to stay. they either breed hard climbing young kids that will get outdoors and climb sport and trad(eventually) or the kids that have no desire to go outside will stay in the gym and not bother you on your precious classic. They are a great training and teaching tool..

Accept change or be left behind


curt


Nov 8, 2004, 8:25 PM
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*thats absolute drivel. and further more its bullshi*t. I don't have to do *anything* to "[earn] to call yourself a climber."

who the bloody hell are you to tell me if I can or cannot call myself a climber. I think you need a gut check.*

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber. There's a difference between somebody who "goes climbing" and being a climber. The ability to hit a nail with a hammer, no matter how artfully or with how much force, does not make you a carpenter. Yours truly sport climbs every weekend and wouldn't dream of wedging his extremities in a crack anymore, but only because I'm old and it hurts too much. You've gotta be versatile in 2 or more aspects (sport, trad, aid, alpine) to be legit, and no, bouldering doesn't count.

Sometimes having fun isn't fun. You'll see.

Bouldering doesn't count only because you suck at it. Or, feel free to call BS on me and come bouldering some time.

Curt


kalcario


Nov 8, 2004, 8:31 PM
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*Bouldering doesn't count only because you suck at it.*

I suck at it - but it still doesn't count.


jakedatc


Nov 8, 2004, 8:32 PM
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kalc you may have been there and done that... but these gym rats will be climbing circle around you on trad, sport, aid, bouldering and ice because they've :
started younger
had coaching
had more and better training
climb year round
have old trad mentors that accept change and see the future of climbing in the children they coach's hands

if you wanna be fucking old school and bad throw out those cams, light wire gate biners, spectra, off sets, 8.0 double ropes , forget those nice shooes with the sticky rubber, comfy harness

rack up some pitons and steel ovals and go to fucking town
for fuckssake you're so bad ass it's amazing

take ur trad rack to Rumney and hop on anything at Waimea, take it to Ceuse and see what you can get up

yes i can get up some stuff at a trad cliff.. can YOU get up anything at certain sport walls? i forget which place but it's like if you dont lead 5.11c dont both going
sure i cant jam for the life of me... but how do you do when your whole fat ass trad body is horizontal to the ground for half of the route?

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