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chico
Nov 10, 2004, 6:33 PM
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Some of you people with too much time on your hands are familiar with my waining love for B.D. equipment. But the latest recall on Solaris lithium headlamp batteries underscored a disturbing trend. B.D. shamelessly sells more 2nds and blems than anyone else I can think of off hand, and they are constantly recalling defective headlamps. Although the new C4 cams are lighter than their older counterparts, the stem is totally encased in plastic, and for people who climb near the coast from time to time, like myself, you really can't inspect the cable for corrosion. Bad design. It wasn't always like this. Can it be said that B.D. is the king of chinsey gear as Budweiser is the king of crappy beer? Anyone?
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madyak
Nov 10, 2004, 6:54 PM
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BD sells a lot of seconds b/c their prices aren't known for being low and a lot of people want their gear. Rather than just throwing away the blems, the sell them really cheap - it's a good thing! BD is on the cutting edge of headlamp design, believe it or not, Petzl has recalled lots and lots of their headlamps too, you just don't hear about it b/c everything is old hat by the time it gets to America. And Budweiser is damn fine beer. If one isn't to your liking either A) drink more of it and it ceases to matter, or, B) go find another brand. Same goes for climbing gear.
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chico
Nov 10, 2004, 7:24 PM
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Madyak, I understand that B.D. gear is in high demand, and therefore people are rabidly snatching up blems. However DMM won't sell any blems. They melt down and re-forge their 'biners so that they are all 1st quality. They are setting a good example. Also I have never seen any Petzl blems. I work in a climbing shop and can tell you that we have a huge section devoted to B.D. blems, and we have spent alot of time dealing with B.D. headlamps that crap out. Moonlight's, Supernova's, Gemini's etc. It's getting to be the case where B.D. is the Dihatsu of gear. Yeah, it's cheaper than a Toyota, but Toyota is better and more reliable! Oh yeah, Budweiser is good beer...if you like to drink formaldehyde.
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holdplease2
Nov 10, 2004, 7:30 PM
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At the rate BD is going with their headlamps...and potentially inspectability of cables on their cams...BD fans may be needing to dring formaldehyde. ;) -Kate.
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rockgoat
Nov 10, 2004, 7:31 PM
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BD MAKES GREAT GEAR..... I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT BUY IT. :D
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camhead
Nov 10, 2004, 7:32 PM
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I've noticed that BD and fiveten tend to LOVE using their customers as a testing base. The result is that you constantly get crappy gear, unless you go for the "tried and true" models of gear. Both companies have way good return policies for this reason, however.
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asandh
Nov 10, 2004, 7:38 PM
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:)
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texplorer
Nov 10, 2004, 7:46 PM
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Blah, blah, blah, I think BD has the best cam design out there. They also do alot of testing and have always been more than happy to replace anything of mine that broke will in battle with the lithic foes. I personally think the new design smart and a better design. Yes, they sell blems but do you really have to buy them? What is your point?
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chronicle
Nov 10, 2004, 8:14 PM
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If you don't like it, don't buy it. Nobody is forcing it on you.
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anothertucsonclimber
Nov 10, 2004, 8:32 PM
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I think we should change this post to be about BEER, not GEAR!!!!! And Bud sucks my left nut!!!!! Stella Artois baby!!!!!
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crackmd
Nov 10, 2004, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: Blah, blah, blah, I think BD has the best cam design out there. They also do alot of testing and have always been more than happy to replace anything of mine that broke will in battle with the lithic foes. I personally think the new design smart and a better design. Yes, they sell blems but do you really have to buy them? What is your point? I have mixed feelings about your praise for BD cams. It is difficult for me to give the best distinction to a cam design that has required so many drastic changes over the 15 years that I have been using cams. Other companies cams have not required such changes in their design. The lame triggors have been a recurrant problem and I have spent a bunch of money replacing frayed and broken triggors. I have never had to replace a triggor on my non BD cams and they are exposed to the same conditions. They are substantially heavier than other cams of the same size which I believe makes a difference when carrying 20+ cams on a desert splitter. It seems they are correcting this problem with the new design. Those of us who climb the parallel desert splitters know all too well the disturbing gaps between successive sizes where it seems that the smaller size is barely cammed and the larger size won't fit without overcamming. All that being said, there is no other cam that I would rather have available at a desperate placement or to inspire confidence to pull through a crux. This is what keeps me buying them despite their drawbacks.
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forkliftdaddy
Nov 10, 2004, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: It is difficult for me to give the best distinction to a cam design that has required so many drastic changes.... i love my stiff stemmed friends, but even as a tried and true design they have notable limitations (even with the gunks tie off). seems to me that BD has tried to address problems of their previous designs with each refinement, trying to make them better. no fault there.
In reply to: The lame triggers have been a recurrant problem and I have spent a bunch of money replacing frayed and broken triggors. I have never had to replace a triggor on my non BD cams and they are exposed to the same conditions. i've never had a problem with trigger wires on my camalots. seems to me that this is a problem BD addressed in a previous refinement, a problem that haunts their reputation today. i have a fraying tcu trigger wire and one on a technical friend -- hate those tings -- but none with my camlots.
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chronicle
Nov 10, 2004, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: The lame triggors have been a recurrant problem and I have spent a bunch of money replacing frayed and broken triggors. I have never had to replace a triggor on my non BD cams and they are exposed to the same conditions. I don't have years of experience with any trad gear. However, having a set of Camalots and a set of Metolius Power Cams, I actually praise BD for selling the replacement kits for their trigger wires. This is a non-crucial, non-weight bearing part, so why not sell the trigger wire replacement kits for customers to use. I think the reason BD trigger wires fray/break more easily is because they are thinner. In comparison to my TCUs, the trigger wires are about 1/3 the size or smaller. This does cut down on some weight, which BD has been burdened with. Honestly, I don't believe in filling my rack with one companies equipment. I like my BD cams, I like my Aliens, and I like my Metolius cams. They all have strengths and weaknesses. It's like a marriage, you take the good with the bad.
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aikibujin
Nov 10, 2004, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: ... BD is on the cutting edge of headlamp design, believe it or not, Petzl has recalled lots and lots of their headlamps too... Nah, Princeton Tec does headlamps better than BD or Petzl. But a lot of climbing shops don't carry PT headlamps, because PT doesn't make climbing gears, they makes flashlights and headlamps exclusively (which probably explains why their product is generally better). I have owned three different PT headlamps to date, liked them all. I bought one BD headlamp (Zenix), sold it the first chance I got and bought a PT headlamp (EOS) instead.
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crackmd
Nov 10, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Honestly, I don't believe in filling my rack with one companies equipment. I like my BD cams, I like my Aliens, and I like my Metolius cams. They all have strengths and weaknesses. It's like a marriage, you take the good with the bad. I agree with you 100% on this point. My rack consists of a rainbow array of different cams. I just started using WC Zeros and aside from an awkward triggor are really awesome and I feel are a legit competitor to Aliens.
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cyanamid
Nov 10, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: .... shamelessly sells more 2nds and blems than anyone else I can think of off hand .... How is this a problem? I imagine melting everything back down would add to the cost of gear rather than detract from it. None of my shiny stuff seems to stay that way, what do I care if it gets to me with a few pre-use scratches? Can't comment on the headlamp issue though, my Gemini doesn't seem to have any issues.
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petsfed
Nov 10, 2004, 10:08 PM
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Both of my BD headlamps have crapped out on me. Loose wires, unexplainable breaks, that sort of thing. AA batteries shouldn't overheat, but in my Moonlight, they do. I like the BD designs for headlamps, but durability simply isn't there. As far as climbing gear goes... BD has this nasty habit of discontinuing my favorite products. The Quickwire, the old Positrons (with the funny gate), the old Livewires (aka "the Fin"), unslung hexes, the Ice pack, the Shrikes, the Big Easy, the entire harness line from 5 years ago, need I go on? It seems like every time they get something right, Petzl puts out something new and they feel the need to "improve" old standbys.
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moondog
Nov 10, 2004, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: BD has this nasty habit of discontinuing my favorite products. The Quickwire, the old Positrons (with the funny gate), the old Livewires (aka "the Fin"), unslung hexes, the Ice pack, the Shrikes, the Big Easy, the entire harness line from 5 years ago, need I go on? Yah, know what you mean...but everyone does it...in the name of "fresh n' new" - it's what the "consumer" seems to want. At least climbing gear isn't (yet) commodified to the point of such products as catsup and dishwashing liquid, where such innovations as "new, green color" and "now! with new packaging!" are frequently seen. Glad I still got my old slingable hexes...wired hexes blowwwww.
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chico
Nov 10, 2004, 10:21 PM
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I agree here, It's good to have an array of brands on your rack. They all have advantages and limitations, and you should utilize each. The new C4 cams are lighter and will be more useful for aid than the old camalots because of the thumb loop in the stem. But what about this mass proliferation of blemished gear? Yeah, maybe they do have a good return policy, but to quote Tommy Boy: "I could crap in a box and put a guarrantee on it, I've got time, but then all you've got is a guaranteed piece of crap..." P.S. Cayanamid or whatever, I only think tha's a bad thing because it sends the statement that B.D. is not concerned with selling first rate gear. Blems, Flaws,...Whatever. Ahh, it's good enough for the consumer. As long as we get some revenue we really don't care. That is the message that I get from B.D.
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chronicle
Nov 10, 2004, 10:44 PM
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In the discussion about blemish gear, I find no problem buying blems. There is a definitive difference between blemish gear and defective gear. I have no direct knowledge of BDs QA practice, but I would bet that they don't sell defective gear. By gear, I'm speaking of climbing hardward (ie, biners, cams, stoppers, etc). I picture blemished gear as: The "CAMALOT" was not stamped correctly, the "7" was stamped properly on the stopper, scratches on the lobes of the cam, etc. I highly doubt that BD would sell a stopper where the wire was not clamped correctly, or the trigger didn't work on the cam. That would be defective and should be picked up by QA. Just my 2 cents on blemish vs defective gear.
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cyanamid
Nov 10, 2004, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: I only think tha's a bad thing because it sends the statement that B.D. is not concerned with selling first rate gear. Blems, Flaws,...Whatever. Ahh, it's good enough for the consumer. As long as we get some revenue we really don't care. That is the message that I get from B.D. I understand where you are coming from on this one, I guess I just see it as another option for the consumer, after all if I *really* want a biner that is cosmetically perfect I have the option of paying for it. However if I want 12 biners for the price of 10 I have that option too. I like having the choice to worry about the finish or not to worry about it.
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wlderdude
Nov 11, 2004, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: I like the BD designs for headlamps, but durability simply isn't there. I think this statement is pretty much right on. BD makes headlamps in China which are cheaper, lighter and better performing than Petzl's headlamps are. They are great headlamps, better than anyone elses. But they are flashlights and I have yet to find a bombproof flashlight that didn't weigh a ton and cost a fortune. Princeton Tech does make some pretty good headlamps. They are more simple and inexpensive than BD or Petzl. But they don't perform as well and their weight is o little high for their designs. They cater more to divers and hikers, while BD and Petzl cater towards climbers and cavers (respectively). I was at Pizza Hut the other day and saw a pizza that had been sitting out for 5 minutes longer than it should be. The worker took it and threw it away. It did not leave me feeling like they are properly using resources. I am not a recyleing nut, but just throwing stuff away like that doesn't sit well with me. I am glad BD has the ethics to keep their cosmetically blemished gear from being wasted.
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dingus
Nov 11, 2004, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: BD MAKES GREAT GEAR..... I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT BUY IT. :D WHAT??? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!111 CAN YOU TRY SHOUTING THAT A LITTLE LOUDER NEXT TIME??? HUH??? HUH??????????? DMT
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dingus
Nov 11, 2004, 5:01 PM
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What I do not understand is why anyone would buy a BD headlamp to begin with! Hehe. I'm not a huge brand loyalist, but when it comes to headlamps I am, pretzel all the way. Starting with the Zoom way back when, everyone else has been 'also rans.' They have never let me down. Camelots were ALWAYS too heavy, the only reason they are popular is marketing. Which is cool, I have some too. But BD also innovates and as such I appreciate them. They have driven, driven mind you, much like Chouinard and Bonatti and Cassin and Charley Moser have driven, the advancement of climbing equipment. They spend $$$ on R&D, unlike some of the discounters and smaller shops. BD is OK by me, and they absolutely rock with their back country ski equipment, really opened up a lot of doors. I need new cams and have issued an RFI. I am not optimistic the new BD cams will make the final cut. DMT
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