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adeptus
Dec 7, 2004, 4:08 PM
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Registered: Dec 17, 2002
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What is the most efficient skiing setup for alpine climbing in the backcountry in winter?
I currently use telemark skis, with leather boots and have used them on both longer ski mountaineering trips and for waterfall climbing with long approaches. They work great, but I’m planning a trip to Chamonix this winter and thought that I should consider an alpine touring setup instead. Mostly because in bad snow conditions telemark skies can be a bit difficult to control and the boots are not the best to climb in.
I was thinking about getting a pair of Damir Freeride bindings, but I’m not sure if I should use A.T. skiing boots or if I should just use a pair of climbing boots like Scarpa Vega or even La Sportiva Nepal Extreme.
Any help would be appreciated.
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fortfun
Dec 7, 2004, 4:33 PM
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Registered: Jul 21, 2004
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It depends on the emphasis of the trip. If you are going to spend a lot of time touring, go with the tele setup. However if you NEED the downhill performance go AT. Moral of the story is that AT on a long tour sucks.
You could also just go with a plastic tele boot and get alot better performance out of that while still touring well.
I made the leather-plastic switch, best thing I did for tele.
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rockprodigy
Dec 7, 2004, 4:34 PM
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AT is definitely better, no question. Since you already are a Tele skier and you're going to buy a new setup, you should probably go with something that accepts mountaineering boots, which basically means silvretta because you probably won't be using those skis purely for skiing, just for climbing. On the other hand, some of the new ice climbing boots are so light these days, you could probably just use whatever setup you want (including tele skis) and carry your ice boots in your pack.
The new lighter ice boots, with their increased flexibility have created a conundrum for us alpine climbers. We need stiff boots for skiing, but we want light and flexible for climbing. You used to be able to use one pair of boots, for example, I have sivretta 500's and I use my Scarpa Invernos which are huge, super stiff, old school ice boots. I can ski decently in that setup, but the boots aren't the best for sub-arctic climbing. I'm sure if I get a pair of the new-fangled lightweieight boots, I'll kill myself if I try to ski in them. You'll have to make a decision with every climb as to what's more important: skiing or climbing performance, or a compromise to save weight.
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rockprodigy
Dec 7, 2004, 4:39 PM
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PS Diamirs will not accept mountaineering boots. You need to decide how important climbing performance is to you. Waterfall ice climbing in ski boots will seriously limit you.
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rmsusa
Dec 7, 2004, 4:46 PM
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Registered: May 24, 2004
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My take FWIW.
Put the boots first. Get a pair you think you can climb in, that are comfortable and warm and that offer adequate support for skiing. Just go with what you feel best with. I've personally climbed the mexican volcanos in Scarpa T-3's, old Merrell leather XC boots, Galibier leather mountaineering boots and Plastic Lowas (not all on the same trip). I've also climbed vertical ice in Red Wing work boots and flexy crampons. You can make almost anything work, but you'll have more fun in a really great pair of boots.
Then, when you've got a nice boot, go get the ski gear. Use either AT or Telemark, depending on where you're most comfortable. Make yourself feel as good as possible about the descent. Make sure you're able to have as much fun as possible while suffering as little as possible.
Treat yourself and spend some real money.
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solo
Dec 7, 2004, 5:23 PM
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Registered: Feb 12, 2003
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If you consider using AT setup with mountineering boots, forget Diamir - the heel segment is too heavy and touring is extremely uncomfortable. Go with silvretta - especially the older models (300, 400) - if you can get them - they are light and will fit almost any boot.
Forget the downhill performance - in mountineering boots (such as Nepal Extreme) its more like kamikadze ride. You would need real AT ski boots (such as Dynafit tourlite) to be able to ski in less than ideal conditions. On the other hand, while it is almost impossible to ski in mountineering boots, it is quite possible to climb in ski boots although it not too comfortable.
I would say: decide whether you want primarily climb or ski, get the appropriate boots and fit the rest of the equipment.
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hema
Dec 7, 2004, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: PS Diamirs will not accept mountaineering boots. You need to decide how important climbing performance is to you. Waterfall ice climbing in ski boots will seriously limit you.
WRONG!!!! :twisted: Well, okay only partly wrong. I have Diamir Freerides and I have toured with 'em using La Sportiva Trango Extremes as my touring boots, good for touring but don't venture into steep (down)-hills with this setup as you might spend more time recovering from falls than actually descending.
So the thig goes, you can use Freerides with mountaineering-boots (like Sportiva Nepal Ext. etc. as long as it has enough front and heel welts), but before buying, try for fit.
If you intend on using the skis for approaching the route and after abbing down skiing back the same way, I would just get good plastic teleboots (Scarpa T1's, Crsipi CXR's or CXU's) and use 'em for touring. When the climbing starts either get some good mountaineering-boots (Nepal Ext.) or just do the climb on tele-boots (for rock & mixed get mountaineering-boots, for ice (under WI4) & snow teles should do fine).
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iceisnice
Dec 7, 2004, 6:08 PM
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you can climb in just about anything, you can ski in just about anything. just find what fits for ya. there are hundreds of options. its possible to rent AT and Tele gear. try it out, and make your own decision. you can do everything from adapting to what you have, to using the gear make you better.
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agrauch
Dec 7, 2004, 8:51 PM
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Registered: Nov 20, 2001
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I guess the most flexible setup would be a reasonably light mid-fat AT ski mounted with Silvrettas. You could use them with alpine, AT, or mountaineering boots depending on your goal of the day.
That being said, I don't own those magical skis. Mainly because I'm a horrible alpine skier. As reasonably competent telemarker, I use my teles for ski mountaineering and approaches to easy alpine climbs. Plastic tele boots aren't the most nimble climbers but they work. For ice and harder alpine routes, I have a short pair of approach skis that work with climbing boots. On anything but fairly flat terrain, mountaineering boots are hell to ski in.
Like others have said its a matter of personal preference and how much you want to spend. You're going to have to put up with some loss of climbing ability when you want to and some loss of skiing ability when you want to climb regardless of what ski choice you make.
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hema
Dec 7, 2004, 9:17 PM
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Registered: Oct 10, 2003
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Adeptus, haven't you been teleing here in Scandinavia at all :shock: As I have found the hardest surface to tele (be it on long skinny skis with leather tele-boots or fat Jaks with high platic tele-boots) I have ever came across is the feared Scandinavian Blue Ice with Bumbs, which almost all the resorts I have been (be it Finland, Sweden or Norway) have had at the end of long busy (skiing) day. Even brakeble crust from Lyngen last Easter proved to be easier on a steep slope (~30 degrees) than a black Scandinavian slope with blue ice and bumbs.
Anyway you're not planning on doing Cosmic Couloir or the Mallory with teles are you, more like slogging Valle Blanche after some fun at du Tacul. Of the latter is you're plan you should be fine with tele's.
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cgailey
Dec 7, 2004, 10:01 PM
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Registered: Apr 6, 2004
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In reply to: In reply to: PS Diamirs will not accept mountaineering boots. You need to decide how important climbing performance is to you. Waterfall ice climbing in ski boots will seriously limit you. WRONG!!!! :twisted: Well, okay only partly wrong. I have Diamir Freerides and I have toured with 'em using La Sportiva Trango Extremes as my touring boots, good for touring but don't venture into steep (down)-hills with this setup as you might spend more time recovering from falls than actually descending. So the thig goes, you can use Freerides with mountaineering-boots (like Sportiva Nepal Ext. etc. as long as it has enough front and heel welts), but before buying, try for fit. If you intend on using the skis for approaching the route and after abbing down skiing back the same way, I would just get good plastic teleboots (Scarpa T1's, Crsipi CXR's or CXU's) and use 'em for touring. When the climbing starts either get some good mountaineering-boots (Nepal Ext.) or just do the climb on tele-boots (for rock & mixed get mountaineering-boots, for ice (under WI4) & snow teles should do fine).
Dude the freerides are a din binding only. They may work, but I can also step into alpine bindings with my snowboard boots. They are NOT designed to take anything other than a DIN AT or ALPINE boot.
If you are looking for the most versatile setup for ski mountaineering, Silvretta 500's are your best bet. These will accept any mountainering boot that has grooves on the toe and heel. The 555 easy go will work, but the height adjustabilty for the rear groove is not as good as the 500 and may pose as a problem with some leather boots. If you can find the older models, as previously mentioned, they also work great. The beauty of this binding is that it will also accept heavier gear, like AT boots, so if you are looking for a more supportive option than your standard plastic or leather boots, you can do it.
Save the Tele gear for the low angle stuff where you won't need crampons...climbing in tele boots sucks.
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wedgy
Dec 7, 2004, 11:00 PM
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Registered: Nov 13, 2003
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Ditto on the silvretta 500's. I use them w/ nepal extremes for ice climbing aproaches, and they accept 'real' ski boots when I just want to ski. It is a kamakasi ride on the downhill for sure(w/ the nepals) so I leave the skins on to scrub a little speed.
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kailas
Dec 10, 2004, 2:32 PM
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Registered: May 23, 2004
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In Chamonix they call tele skiing handicapped skiing because it is limiting in the steep glacier filled valley of Chamonix . I actually have done what your looking to do, ski to WI climbs in the Cham area, in fact have been doing so for close to 20 years. If you want to combine skiing and climbing put your climbing shoes in your pack, approach, climb, then go back to your gear and ski home. The guys who's emphasis is climbing use specialty approach skis that fit their plastic climbing boots, these skis are very short, you will find them for sale in Europe, I've never seen them for sale in the U.S. I use AT gear, but if I ski something crazy over in Cham, even if it's hard to get to, I use Alpine skis and bindings. Good luck.
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refugee
Dec 10, 2004, 3:12 PM
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Registered: Aug 23, 2004
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A vey easy answer to this question:
"FOR ALPINE CLIMBING" -- Silveretta 500s with any shit ski you can find. No other option exists
tele boots do not climb. they don't. However, if you want to make the most bad ass powder turns ever, and be a complete badass on skis, go teles because they are rad...if you are rad enough to do it.
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