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petsfed
Dec 12, 2004, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: you can use a big hex for a rappel device? that is really neat! I already like it for a light hammer for cleaning. for learning passive placements, I have done some short aid climbs up cracks too hard for me to free lead. however, with only 2.5 sets of nuts, 1 set WC rockentrics, and pink, red, brown tricams, it can get a little interesting... usually backcleaning some midrange pieces, and really having to look for something that will hold in weird cracks were cams would be a breeze... fun stuff. Jeremy
Anything bigger than a #9 bd is too floppy for safe rappelling, anything smaller and you can barely get the rope in. So bare that in mind. Also, the hex is great for rappelling, but probably not up to the task of belaying. Good for backup when bailing, but don't lean on it for anything else.
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johnson6102002
Dec 12, 2004, 3:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: you can use a big hex for a rappel device? that is really neat! I already like it for a light hammer for cleaning. for learning passive placements, I have done some short aid climbs up cracks too hard for me to free lead. however, with only 2.5 sets of nuts, 1 set WC rockentrics, and pink, red, brown tricams, it can get a little interesting... usually backcleaning some midrange pieces, and really having to look for something that will hold in weird cracks were cams would be a breeze... fun stuff. Jeremy Anything bigger than a #9 bd is too floppy for safe rappelling, anything smaller and you can barely get the rope in. So bare that in mind. Also, the hex is great for rappelling, but probably not up to the task of belaying. Good for backup when bailing, but don't lean on it for anything else.
how exactly might one use a #9 hexentric as a rappel device?
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adamtd
Dec 12, 2004, 3:42 PM
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I climbed for 8 years on a purely passive rack (stoppers, hexes, tri-cams). I suggest the same, or at least start with just passive, you don't have to wait 8 years to get cams. You Passive gear is the bread and butter of your rack and if that's all you have for a while, you will become a pro at placing it. Now, I rarely use cams, even though I have two full sets. When you're proficient with passive gear, I truly believe, you'll trust it more.
-Adam
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dingus
Dec 12, 2004, 5:43 PM
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Here's a thought... buy what you need as you need it. Gasp!
If you really want to piece it together, ebay is your friend.
Nuts, runners and biners first. Then cams of the design and sizes best suited to where and what you'll be climbing. You can figure it out from there I'm sure.
Don't rely upon others to build you a rack or do your thinking!
Cheers
DMT
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maculated
Dec 12, 2004, 7:08 PM
Post #31 of 64
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Ignore these jokers' lists, dude. Find someone local to the areas you'll be climbing, point out climbs you want to try RIGHT now, and get the gear beta. That's what I did. My first year of climbing I had a set of nuts and three cams. It got me up and down safely. You don't need a huge rack until you start progressing to different climbs and different areas.
It sort of sickens me how large my free rack is, and how dependent I've become on it.
Remember: you don't need a cam you don't have. :)
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petsfed
Dec 12, 2004, 8:01 PM
Post #32 of 64
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In reply to: how exactly might one use a #9 hexentric as a rappel device?
Its a tube right? So you stick a bight of rope through the tube (a bight from each strand if you're double rope rapping) and clip a carabiner to it. Then you rappel. I'd lay money that this was part of the process that introduced the sticht plate, the tuber, and eventually the ATC. There's countless things you could use in lieu of a "real" belay device for rappelling. I'll let you dream up a few.
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johnson6102002
Dec 12, 2004, 8:10 PM
Post #33 of 64
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In reply to: In reply to: how exactly might one use a #9 hexentric as a rappel device? Its a tube right? So you stick a bight of rope through the tube (a bight from each strand if you're double rope rapping) and clip a carabiner to it. Then you rappel. I'd lay money that this was part of the process that introduced the sticht plate, the tuber, and eventually the ATC. There's countless things you could use in lieu of a "real" belay device for rappelling. I'll let you dream up a few.
i see.. i should have been able to figure that out but I geuss i was having another dumb moment :roll: thanks though
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healyje
Dec 12, 2004, 8:34 PM
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Hexs are designed to be used in compression - not tension. Given all the ways to improvise a rappel this would be a bad choice at best...
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jimdavis
Dec 12, 2004, 10:44 PM
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In reply to: Hexs are designed to be used in compression - not tension. Given all the ways to improvise a rappel this would be a bad choice at best...
Good call...a Munter will work just fine for me, thank you.
Jim
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petsfed
Dec 12, 2004, 11:38 PM
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In reply to: Hexs are designed to be used in compression - not tension. Given all the ways to improvise a rappel this would be a bad choice at best...
You're probably right. However, munthers are harder to set up for a double rope rap, require a different technique that may not be second nature (a real key when you just dropped your ATC because you're hypoxic or exhausted) and sometimes require two carabiners. Keep it simple and you're less likely to make a mistake.
Second, in a low speed rappelling configuration, it takes a lot of force to break a hex. Other than keeping the speed low (and retiring the hex after the fact) there are no special considerations when using one. As I said, its not up to belaying a leader, but the forces in a rappell are much lower than in a belay. That's why a lot of old figure eight rappel devices are not good for belaying. They aren't designed for that much force.
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robreglinski
Dec 12, 2004, 11:55 PM
Post #37 of 64
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im with petsfed on this one
the other method is the krab as a break bar
that works well too trust me :roll:
anyways your avseils should allways be backed up with a prussik
Rob
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jammer
Dec 13, 2004, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ignore these jokers' lists, dude. Yes, because nobody here knows anything about climbing except Maculated. :roll:
Why be an ass, man. If you look at the list, one would be confused as to what to start with. This OP is a beginner, as I am, and would like the basics, please. Mac has earned our trust here ... Your profile is nothing but words .... show us pics of YOU doing the stuff you claim on doing and this will begin the trust. Otherwise STFU!
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dirtineye
Dec 13, 2004, 7:11 PM
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This thread is getting out of hand.
Sometimes you'll find that if you don't have a particular piece of gear, your life becomes miserable. Sometimes no matter what gear you have, nothing will work and your life becomes miserable.
Trad climbers ARE depending on their gear to save their butts if they fall, otherwise they'd be free soloists.
Pictures on the internet or anywyere else do not prove that someone is a good climber.
To trust someone in climbing matters, you should climb with them. Skillful climbers are not always the safest climbers. And then some people talk a good game, but it's all talk.
Placing less than adequate gear, because to place more would pump you out, means something. It means, 1, that you should not be on that climb, and 2, you are working on a Darwin Award nomination. If you can't spare the time (to place good gear), don't do the climb. This is ESPECIALLY true whne you are a beginner, and have no idea what really good gear is to start with. Really good gear is the gear that holds when you fall on it, and there is only ONE way to discover that your gear is truly good. Even experienced climbers place gear poorly from time to time. Remember too that your gear is only as good as the rock around it.
One of the better climbers I know likes to talk about climbing hubris. This is what gets people into trouble. So be humble, know when to back off or be mroe careful and stay in one piece.
There's been plenty of good advice given, and a fair amount of poor advice as well in this thread. Good luck sorting it out. You could also read some of the 100 other, "How do I start a rack/get into trad climbing?", threads.
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j_ung
Dec 13, 2004, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: :idea: No one has mentioned hexes yet. Hexes will work in parallel and horizontal cracks, where nuts will usually not. Hexes are similarly inexpensive and easy to place. I would recommend starting with a set of hexes with one or two extra in the medium-large range (Metolius 6, 7, and 8, for example)
You know, I hate hexes. I haven't carried those damned wind chimes since the early nineties and I see no decent reason, whatsoever, to begin carrying them again...
BUT
That's good advice. My early experience with hexes built a foundation of gear understanding and basic skills that has become invaluable to my later climbing and gear setting.
In summary, hexes; hate 'em, but the above is still a good idea.
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dirtineye
Dec 13, 2004, 7:46 PM
Post #43 of 64
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If it's hexes you can't beat the wild country slung ones (you can use the sling as an extra sling in a real pinch), but for rappel learn to use a fecking munter hitch.
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larryd
Dec 13, 2004, 8:10 PM
Post #44 of 64
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In reply to: One of the better climbers I know likes to talk about climbing hubris. This is what gets people into trouble. So be humble, know when to back off or be mroe careful and stay in one piece.
Right on. Best starter advice is to rack doubles of good judgement and leave the hubris in the car...
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crimpandgo
Dec 13, 2004, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: Also, don't forget that it takes two to trad -- your partner should be splitting part of the gear!!! If you don't have a regular partner, then find some more experienced people to go with, you don't want to be learning trad and trying to teach it at the same time... Bad idea. A.W.
hmmmm.. I would agree with this for muli-pitch... My my partner doesn't climb much but she is a great belayer. It simply restricts me to single pitch. but doesn't preclude it entirely.
I also bought my gear one piece at a time. You dont have to be climbing trad to make good use of it. Anchors often require placed pieces and there are lots of mixed climbs that don't require a full rack. Don't buy what you don't need. Your climbing will tell you what to buy. After each trip to the climbs you will be sayin " I need to get me one of those ...." :)
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tradklime
Dec 13, 2004, 8:21 PM
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http://www.acmeclimbing.com/
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markc
Dec 13, 2004, 9:06 PM
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It would usually be helpful to include an idea of how much money you're starting with, as well as the gear you already own. If you've been sport climbing, you can save a lot of money on biners. Cannibalize your draws for the biners and use them with longer slings.
Passive protection definitely gives you more bang for your buck. ABC Huevos cost around $50 for 4 - 13. You can get quite a few hexes for around $100 (and depending on the brand you could get a whole set for less). If money is tight, consider racking on ovals. (By the way, it's not against the law to rack more than one cam to a biner.) 2' slings will run you between $5 and 7 each, and 10 isn't a bad start. Get a cordolette/webolette, nut tool, a few lockers, and you're ready for easy, short routes. Add cams in sizes common for your area and work from there.
Planning purchases with a partner or partners can stretch your funds even further. I'm not much on package deals (which may be out of your price range anyway). You can usually put together better packages yourself. I started climbing on cheap cams. They have their place, but you may want to build more slowly and get your first choice as you can. They do seem to be getting better and better, but so do the name brands.
mark
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david.yount
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Dec 16, 2004, 10:04 AM
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In reply to: I think the best advise would be to hold off until you are following alot. Learn what works and what doesn't at your home crags. Then you won't even have to ask this question.
I've been quoted often, "follow 100 pitches, or at least 60 pitches, before you begin to lead and don't buy pro until you've lead on partners' racks at least 30 pitches." But that's just some crazy oldskool advice.
david yount.
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neutralcypruss
Dec 16, 2004, 12:52 PM
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:twisted: well i started out with one set of omega pacific scallops some slings and biners and had no problem doing some smaller trad climbs borrow a friends tri cams and or hexes and you have a great day besides i feel if you learn with just nuts and or hexes you are learning the way they did before cams..ie more ingenuitive.
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roambb1
Dec 16, 2004, 2:43 PM
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I agree with most of what I have read in this thread.
I started out with nuts/stoppers, and learned to place those well (when you second/follow, practice removing them, and then placing them again). I have found that when stressed, or run-out, it is more difficult to place stoppers than cams, so learning to be efficient with passive pro will really help you later on.
I was building a rack before I started leading, because I knew it would help me spread the cost over time, and my mentor always appreciated being able to use what gear I had. If you buy "basic" (subject to as many opionins as there are climbers) gear early, you can get more crag-specific later. In my experience, I have found that I generally place #1 camalot the most often, followed by .75, then .5, or perhaps a #2. Those sizes are usually very practical, and I often find myself wanting 2 of each on some climbs, so they should be a "safe purchase" when you are beginning.
Take time to follow, and really utilize the opportunity to examine, and re-place each piece of gear as you clean someone else's (hopefully experienced and safe with good technique and solid placement skills) lead.
Early on when I was building my rack, I was bartending, so when I brought my cash home, I'd use the envelope system. A portion to bills, portion to living, and a portion for gear. As soon as the gear envelope reached $50+, I'd go buy a cam. It might help.
Take care, be safe, and enjoy
BB
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