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bldr
Dec 18, 2004, 7:19 AM
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When you are trying to do a route hammerless and it beats you down, how do you get yourself to keep going clean?
The other day I did the first hammerless ascent of some small local route, but it took two tries. After blowing multiple placements and nearly decking I found it very hard to leave the hammer alone when I got back on the route.
Do you ever find yourself reaching for the hammer sooner after things go kinda south on you? I assume its a strength of your convictions thing, but is there a point when you desdire to go clean goes out the window in exchange for not messing, hurting or abusing yourself further?
Just curious to hear how the hard (wo)men cope.
thanks,
-j
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enjoimx
Dec 18, 2004, 8:31 AM
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You know, i just realized that i dont even know what your refering to when you say "climbing a route hammerless". Are people still climbing routes whilst hammering in pitons and such like they did back in the olden days? I though traditional gear both active and passive sort of replaced pitons and hammering cracks. Im interested. Im assuming your "hammering" because there is no better way to protect the crack?
Are you refering to an alpine type ascent?
I guess i dont know much about aid climbing. I thought aid was basically plugging in cams and standing on them via ladders, that and clipping bolt ladders.
Sorry for my ignorance.
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euroford
Dec 18, 2004, 5:15 PM
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if you brought a hammer, you arn't 'hammerless'. so the simple solution is to leave it in the car.
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lambone
Dec 18, 2004, 7:31 PM
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for me...two simple words...
CHEAT STICK :lol:
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alpinestylist
Dec 18, 2004, 9:22 PM
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exactly euroford...if you bring bivi gear, you'll bivi (forget who said that, used to be in old Vegas guide)
IF you bring the hammer...
As far as increasing courage...I suggest catching your lady friend in the embrace of another, catastrophic stock market collapse, death of all those close to you....
or just be born to lose like the rest of us.
To the other fellow... I think you are visualizing "clean" aid, pretty much the same thing, only us geeks draw a difference. I would say "easy clean" is kind of french free, yarding on gear and what not, or simple cam and stopper aid (Salathe and Moonlight Buttress are examples that come to mind, hard free, pretty hard french free, or relatively easy clean aid.)
Hammerless is pretty much refering to placing pitons without hammering them, or when a route is full of fixed pins and heads. Whilst you may climb the zodiac "hammerless" I don't know when it will be climbed "clean".
Hope that helps. Aid climbing in general is a whole other variety of climbing, number of books or websites to spell it out.
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bldr
Dec 18, 2004, 9:34 PM
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I did have the hammer, but I was able to not use it. I was pretty sure the route could be done hammerless, but I was unsure about a long section of roof where I had to use some thin blades the first time I tried it. For the second try I was able to step up high, brace my back against the wall, and use my (newly aquired) lowe ball to reach through past the blade into a flake at the corner of the roof.
So is that the trick, leaving the hammer home and forcing yourself to do without?
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lostdog
Dec 18, 2004, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: Re: How do you keep up the courage? well, it's easy to do when you've got balls of steal. |
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alpinestylist
Dec 18, 2004, 9:50 PM
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As to when to whip out the hammer and when not too...
I typically try to climb a route as cleanly as possible. Clean is faster than hammering...cam hook or LA seem to be a question I ask mysef a lot.
Anytime I feel my safety (? pretty subjective) is in danger I weld a pin. otherwise I try to zip through. On some things there is no way to not nail (until the RURP/camhook :twisted: )
In your case I think the goal for the pitch was a clean/hammerless ascent? Then I guess you decide how much "this pitch" and "this instant" matter to you and slide that pecker into the crack and dont tap it! (Does beating with the forehead count?)
On bigger routes I guess my whole deal is to just get my fat azz up the stone, so I make an on the spot decision. Back in maybe 95/96 I climbed the NE Ridge of King Fischer hammerless. Why? Because I was young and thought it was some kind of statement. Climbing clean is always the ideal. How many people have done it that way since? Or the NA Wall, TT, Zod, Mescalito, Shield, PO? How many people climb these clean even since they've gone clean?
It's all a personal decision. Style matters! But I don't make too huge a point with all clean ascents. Damn the Shield would be sickazz with no hammer!!!!!!!
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lambone
Dec 18, 2004, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: How many people have done it that way since? Or the NA Wall, TT, Zod, Mescalito, Shield, PO? How many people climb these clean even since they've gone clean?
I think alot of people climb Mesc and TT clean, or with very few pin placements.
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areyoumydude
Dec 19, 2004, 12:13 AM
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OE 800!
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atg200
Dec 19, 2004, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: Back in maybe 95/96 I climbed the NE Ridge of King Fischer hammerless. Why? Because I was young and thought it was some kind of statement. Climbing clean is always the ideal. How many people have done it that way since?
everyone does the NE ridge of the kingfisher hammerless. maybe its gotten more beat out and light since then :) doing P1 of the sundevil chimney hammerless scared the hell out of me though, and i promptly bailed when i got to those anchors so i could go drink it off my mind.
just tell yourself that its not funny until someone gets hurt.
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alpinestylist
Dec 19, 2004, 10:13 PM
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Good to know. Do you know what gear it takes? Large tricams, etc?
I placed tons of hand placed angles from baby to med. I wasnt stuntin' like that was super cool, that was my misplaced example of clean climbing.
I dont mean to sound like I know anything...sometimes im just irie around the computer and write some stuff.
I've climbed sundevil and wouldnt dream of it clean...it was bfore it went clean.
Did you jsut place lots of hand placed BIG angles? Scary.
Right on.
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atg200
Dec 20, 2004, 12:28 AM
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hey brent,
ne ridge of the kingfisher goes clean really easily. i placed some stoppers and a few cams from green alien up to maybe a #3 camalot. nothing tricky at all - i'd say not really any harder than C1. i bet you could solo it in 3 hours, so just check it out when you are passing through sometime.
P1 of the sundevil scared the hell out of me hammerless, and i doubt it has been done clean more than a couple of times. i took a fall near the anchors on a red alien in a sawed off angle scar that spit sand out on me when i was on it, and i pretty much knew it was only a matter of time. the second time i got on the same goddamn piece i just got off it as soon as i could and hoped for the best - i was really really close to pulling out the hammer there. the fall was onto a blue/green offset alien in mud. other than that, i hand placed a couple of angles, i stuffed big lowe balls into the drilled angle pockets(i have no idea how they were staying put, but they held a bounce), some scary free climbing, and lots of aliens and small trango flexcams in drilled angle scars. hybrid aliens were also really useful. i have never been so scared in my life. i need to go back and finish the route, but i was pretty much ready to quit climbing after that pitch the first time up. but i am really light.
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alpinestylist
Dec 20, 2004, 7:13 PM
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SOunds mega, I've bailed off that first pitch twice Iwas so gripped.
NE Ridge sounds much different. I need some more fischer love, been toooo long.
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dangle
Jan 9, 2005, 11:19 AM
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Wow, is it really that late? Guess that's what happens when you sleep half the day (it snowed).
Lots of varied opinions on these subjects, here's my take.
I started climbing in '68. We used a hammer and pins to get pro so when I read enjoimx say,"I thought aid was plugging in cams"etc, it drove home just what a dinosaur I am.
In the subsequent decades I watched nuts and then cams evolve and the climbs we did evolved with them. The practice of removing pitons was originally seen as a plus leaving the route pristine and challenging, but pin damage was soon an issue. So when a workable alternative was available I shifted tactics.
Soon I was putting up routes with minimal hammering. I began to leave the pins that still seemed mandatory fixed starting with Pervertical Sanctuary in '75. I used the acronym HAFWEN to denote such routes (hammered anchors fixed where necessary) and began formulating a constructive scarring philosophy so that some routes which may have required pitons at first might eventually be climbed without a hammer.
It was stated that clean is faster. Not necessarily so. When you only have pitons your only choice is what size, then you slam it in. Now the options are far more complex. In addition few recognize that in aid pitons hold your etriers higher than a nut sling and thereby enhance efficiency.
In '81 I did Touchstone again but without a hammer. I relied on a few of those fixed pins and also some pins hand placed in old scars (strong but not secure). To me the issue was minimizing impact so I think that people who say that using fixed gear isn't clean are being foolish nitpickers.
Still there were problems with the strategy. Some fixed gear doesn't remain that way especially in soft sandstone. Worse yet, subsequent parties lacked the confidence to hand place pitons, so they beat them in altering the route possibly compromising its potential for clean climbing.
I therefore concluded that hand placing pins was not a viable clean tactic not because it didn't work but rather because insecure climbers wouldn't respect the priorities involved. Unfortunately this kind of selfishness persists today. When a route goes at C3 or A1 they pull out their hammers.
In fact I differentiate between clean and hammerless because the latter involves more commitment.
As for the statement,"Some things there's no way not to nail.", well once I questioned the ethical values of a climber who nailed delicate sandstone remaining oblivious to the resulting easily visible damage. He was surprised and asked,"Well how else are you going to climb it?"
My response was,"Who says you have to?"
For some people legal means the same as ethical, but I have to be comfortable with the big picture which means looking down the road as well.
In '93 some friends climbed the Shield without hammering any of the anchors they used. They even made a video. It was a bold statement that virtually every subsequent party has ignored. They'll spout stuff like "the Shield is sickazz without a hammer" when what is really sickazz is the deliberate ignorance of the negative effect of their actions on others. I wonder if they would do the same if it had gone free.
Rather than screwing it up for others if you don't like the risk don't do the climb.
How do you keep up the courage?
By having principles and knowing your limits.
As for beating with your forehead; as long as you don't have a steel plate in your head I'm willing to say its OK, but only if I get to watch...
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alpinestylist
Jan 9, 2005, 6:36 PM
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Err, spouting " the shield would be sick azz".
I take issue with this because I said it. People that live in glass houses Ronny...
I thought you were the big advocate of "crafting" placements! OOOOh, both proud and skillful.
I respect your love of climbing, and enduring presence in it.
SO what is your point of "deliberate negative effect"? That noone should hammer anymore? C'mon.
You make a radical statement that is noway applicable to todays world.
Take your guns and re-retreat to the desert.
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dangle
Jan 9, 2005, 8:04 PM
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I know you said it, hence the quotes. To take a hammer to a route that is known not to require it any more means altering it from the state in which it was climbed clean. That is a negative effect. If the climber who does it knows that its gone clean already then he is altering it deliberately. While that is likely merely a byproduct of the ascent it is nonetheless a consequence.
An ethical person considers the consequences of his actions.
Judging that a style of ascent is "sick azz" even if an accurate appraisal is not adequate justification for adversely affecting the potential of others to enjoy a clean ascent.
When it comes to my theories on constructive scarring other people often enough read something into my words which isn't there. I NEVER broadly "advocated" that people should craft placements. I DID say that when hammers are necessary their negative effect can be mitigated with some techniques which might even permit the route to eventually be done without a hammer.
Once that is accomplished no further alteration should be made. If at that point one judges that a clean ascent is too risky then do a different climb.
I also never said that nobody should hammer any more. Again you are reading into my words rather than considering them carefully. Where is the glass house hypocracy of saying when a route goes clean it should stay a clean route.
And saying re-retreat suggests I did it before. When was that pray tell. I moved TO the desert because like so many its beauty struck a chord in me. Is all this vitriol because I disagreed with "sick azz" being a valid justification? The gun comment makes me wonder if perhaps you have a political agenda that colors your values in this.
I'm willing to grant that you made an attempt at respect. Are you willing to grant that it wasn't a particularly powerful effort?
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