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curt
Dec 21, 2004, 12:21 AM
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Why doesn't the AP just email this to Al Queda directly?
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In reply to: By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - A terror attack on a tanker delivering liquefied natural gas at a U.S. port could set off a fire so hot it would burn skin and damage buildings nearly a mile away, government scientists say in a report expected to influence where new multibillion-dollar terminals will be built. The report from a government nuclear weapons lab, a 160-page unclassified version of which was obtained Monday by The Associated Press, characterizes an LNG tanker spill from a terror attack as a low probability. If successful, however, it would become "a high consequence event" that could produce massive injuries and property damage, the report said. The yearlong study by scientists at Sandia National Laboratory, a premier federal research facility, provides the most detailed analysis to date of the potential public safety impact of a terrorist attack on an LNG transport tanker. While the report does not recommend prohibiting tankers from carrying LNG through heavily populated areas, it says those shipments should occur only after "the most rigorous deterrent measures" are in place to reduce the probability of an attack. The tankers, each of which carries up to 30 million gallons of LNG, arrive every few days at four U.S. terminals: one on Boston's outskirts, another in Maryland and two on the Gulf coast. All are expanding as regulators weigh the merits of putting more than three dozen more such facilities at U.S. ports, many in urban areas. In its minus-260 degrees liquid state, LNG cannot explode and is not flammable. If a missile or explosive should tear a hole in a tanker or a storage tank, however, the escaping liquid would be transformed instantaneously into a gas and probably would ignite in a massive fire. The Sandia report said terrorists, using readily available weapons and technology, could blast a 10-foot hole into the side of an LNG tanker. The assessment evaluates a range of scenarios that would result in release of millions of gallons of LNG from a transport tanker. The scenarios include a takeover of a vessel by an insider or hijacker, external attacks using explosive-laden boats, triggered explosions or rocket-propelled grenades or missiles. Under some circumstances an attack could produce cascading damage that could result in failure of as many as three of a ship's five LNG cargo tanks, which would increase the fire's intensity and lengthen its duration. Detailed discussions of specific threats were included only in the classified version of the report, but the unclassified version examined the general impact such an attack and LNG fire on water would have to people within a mile of the spill. "We are not recommending that there be any kind of `no ship zone,'" said Mark Maddox, a deputy assistant secretary at the Energy Department, which commissioned the study. "What we've learned is that we can significantly reduce the likelihood of a terrorist attack occurring with security planning and mitigation." Even with many details left out of the unclassified version, the report describes a harrowing potential for disaster if a terror attack were to succeed in releasing millions of gallons of LNG from a double-hulled vessel that typically carries more than 30 million gallons of the frosty liquid fuel. The Sandia scientists identified "several credible" terror scenarios that the report said would result in at least one — possibly as many as three — of a tanker's five cargo tanks being breached. That would ignite a pool of fire to spread several hundred yards in all directions, the report said. While "the most significant impacts to public health" and the most severe destruction of buildings would be within a 550-yard radius of the fire, heat that could burn the skin and damage houses could extend to nearly a mile away. Shouldn't we at least make those guys think this stuff up on their own? I mean, WTF? Curt
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t-dog
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Dec 21, 2004, 12:55 AM
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the guy managed to get a second term. Now, he just needs a second 9/11 to maintain his popularity at a decent level for another 4 years :twisted:
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wideguy
Dec 21, 2004, 12:59 AM
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Because it's old news Curt. The LNG port in Boston has been announcing tanker dates and security measures for a week in advance of every ship since the week after 9/11/01. Along with the attendant newspaper stories EVERY SINGLE TIME about the devastation a tanker could cause. The security at the Boston LNG terminal has been detailed in these articles as well as in briefings from Homeland Security as known targets for years. Hell, last year they brought a tanker into Boston that had 4 undocumented illegal aliens as crew and it wasn't discovered till after it left. Plus, the hundreds of protesters that picket every time one is scheduled could hardly have escaped their notice. Essentially, if they hadn't caught the news yet one more AP article will hardly matter. :?
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one900johnnyk
Dec 21, 2004, 3:18 AM
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i'm still ocnfused by some of the responses here. at any rate, curt has a point. do you not remember the ocmputer found in afghanistan containing correspondence b/w al qaeda cells? it explained how they needed to step up their research into biological terrorism, and regretted that they were late in the game - admitting that it was only the "infidels" fears and concerns which brought their attention to it... as far as i'm concerned, the less stories about how to scuba dive and enter shipyards to destroy america, or which targets might be best, the better...
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fracture
Dec 21, 2004, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: Shouldn't we at least make those guys think this stuff up on their own? I mean, WTF? Security through obscurity, eh? Doesn't work, Curt. I guess that's all this administration really has to offer, though....
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thegreytradster
Dec 21, 2004, 3:42 AM
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In reply to: Why doesn't the AP just email this to Al Queda directly? They don't have the Email address! If they did, they probably would. :?
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tempestwind
Dec 21, 2004, 3:51 AM
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What does this pic have to do with the topic of the thread???????????
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tempestwind
Dec 21, 2004, 3:55 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why doesn't the AP just email this to Al Queda directly? They don't have the Email address! If they did, they probably would. :? Oh yes they do>AL Jajerckoffs .com aka Al Jazeera TV There was another Big Mouth Give Away as well> It was one of the gents leaving the bush Admin who stated how weak our defenses were when it came it our food supply.
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bluto
Dec 21, 2004, 2:36 PM
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One high profile treason case would most likely shut a lot of people up.
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coylec
Dec 21, 2004, 4:25 PM
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Hells yeah! Let's restrict the freedom of speech we value so much because "Loose Lips Sink Ships!" Fuck yeah ... abridging my constitutional freedoms because the government* is unable to provide adequate security everywhere! * And, its not specific to this administration: I'm sure the Dems would be doing something similar, this is a general distrust of govt post, not a Bush-bashing post (see numerous other threads for that). In the words of one of our founding fathers: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." (B. Franklin) coylec
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bumblie
Dec 21, 2004, 4:35 PM
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I think most people would give up certain liberties, if doing so was for the benefit of society as a whole and if we could be guaranteed that this was a temporary situation that would be reversed in the future. Unfortunately, goverments/bureaucracies rarely relinquish power. The opposite is more often the case.
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bluto
Dec 21, 2004, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: Hells yeah! Let's restrict the freedom of speech we value so much because "Loose Lips Sink Ships!" f--- yeah ... abridging my constitutional freedoms because the government* is unable to provide adequate security everywhere! In the words of one of our founding fathers: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." (B. Franklin) coylec This is the typical idealist, sounds great in a hypothetical vacum, type of response I would expect from you. It's completely detached from reality.
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slablizard
Dec 21, 2004, 5:16 PM
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What? Did I miss bush's speech again? HolyMoly! I agree Bluto, he is completely detached from reality.
In reply to: This is the typical idealist, sounds great in a hypothetical vacum, type of response I would expect from you. It's completely detached from reality.
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curt
Dec 21, 2004, 5:28 PM
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I am not in favor of censorship. I am more in favor of journalists and politicians using some restraint and common sense in what they report. I really don't see how it is a good idea to have an AP news release about how vulnerable our LNG shipping is--and how much damage an explosion of one of these ships could create. I think HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson's comments about the safety of our food suppy was similarly irresponsible. Curt
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cosmokramer
Dec 21, 2004, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: What does this pic have to do with the topic of the thread??????????? Well, this thread is about the Associated Press, isn't it?
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joeschmoe
Dec 21, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: I am not in favor of censorship. I am more in favor of journalists and politicians using some restraint and common sense in what they report. I really don't see how it is a good idea to have an AP news release about how vulnerable our LNG shipping is--and how much damage an explosion of one of these ships could create. I think HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson's comments about the safety of our food suppy was similarly irresponsible. Curt But you see if they don't expose these weak points we won't be afraid. If we're not afraid they can't control our emotions and limit our freedoms. :roll:
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slablizard
Dec 21, 2004, 6:30 PM
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Relax man. Unfortunately they figured out by themselves how to hijack and fly two planes into the Twin Towers. That sounds logistically A LOT more complex than blow up a ship. Personally I consider waging a war that has no motive or purpose, a lot more blatant lack of common sense, and at this point, of decency.
In reply to: I am not in favor of censorship. I am more in favor of journalists and politicians using some restraint and common sense in what they report. I really don't see how it is a good idea to have an AP news release about how vulnerable our LNG shipping is--and how much damage an explosion of one of these ships could create. I think HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson's comments about the safety of our food suppy was similarly irresponsible. Curt
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scrapedape
Dec 21, 2004, 7:33 PM
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As has already been mentioned, the vulnerability of LNG terminals was no secret before the story in question, though perhaps it's not something that the general public is particularly familiar with. We have to remember that we're dealing with madmen and fanatics, not fools. Don't you think that the public has a right to be aware of dangerous goods being shipped through their back yard, especially when these goods are vulnerable to attack? It's not about instilling fear, it's about educating the public so they can make informed decisions about whether they want to be exposed to this risk.
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robbovius
Dec 21, 2004, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: I think most people would give up certain liberties, if doing so was for the benefit of society as a whole and if we could be guaranteed that this was a temporary situation that would be reversed in the future. Unfortunately, goverments/bureaucracies rarely relinquish power. The opposite is more often the case. I have to agree, goverments' purpose is to be in power, and to consolidate power. Relinquishing liberties helps the government in consolidating it's power over the governed.
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grimpiperx
Dec 21, 2004, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: I am not in favor of censorship. I am more in favor of journalists and politicians using some restraint and common sense in what they report. I really don't see how it is a good idea to have an AP news release about how vulnerable our LNG shipping is--and how much damage an explosion of one of these ships could create. I think HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson's comments about the safety of our food suppy was similarly irresponsible. Curt I agree with Curt completely, I mean I am all free-speechy and what not but who the F was the article supposed to be benefiting?! I mean what was the purpose?
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coylec
Dec 22, 2004, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: I am not in favor of censorship. I am more in favor of journalists and politicians using some restraint and common sense in what they report. I really don't see how it is a good idea to have an AP news release about how vulnerable our LNG shipping is--and how much damage an explosion of one of these ships could create. I think HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson's comments about the safety of our food suppy was similarly irresponsible. Curt Unfortunately, what this leads to is a lack of accountablity for governance. When everything goes into the black hole of the DHS, and nothing comes out, those people are not longer under the oversight of the people. And without inforamtion, people can't effectively use their power to vote to hold them accountable. Democracy depends on an educated electorate. coylec [edit] And, Bluto, while an ad hom is a nice distraction, I'm looking for some freaking rebuttal, not your unconditional retreat! [/edit
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curt
Dec 22, 2004, 1:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am not in favor of censorship. I am more in favor of journalists and politicians using some restraint and common sense in what they report. I really don't see how it is a good idea to have an AP news release about how vulnerable our LNG shipping is--and how much damage an explosion of one of these ships could create. I think HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson's comments about the safety of our food suppy was similarly irresponsible. Curt Unfortunately, what this leads to is a lack of accountablity for governance. When everything goes into the black hole of the DHS, and nothing comes out, those people are not longer under the oversight of the people. And without inforamtion, people can't effectively use their power to vote to hold them accountable. Democracy depends on an educated electorate. I agree to a certain extent. However, as you may recall, J. F. Kennedy was quite a "skirt chaser" during his days as President and this fact was well known to the press. The press at that time, however, decided that this really wasn't a "proper" topic to report on--so they exercised restraint and did not. By the time of the Clinton administration, reporting had changed--to an extent that no restraint was used and anything that would attract readership or viewers was reported. And we all know how that turned out for the country. I hardly think that the electorate had to be "educated" to that degree. And, yes, whether the topic is skirt chasing or terrorism, I believe good judgement and restraint should prevail over sensationalism in journalism. Curt
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bill
Dec 22, 2004, 2:57 AM
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interesting topic, there has to be a balance between freedom of speech and security.
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bluto
Dec 22, 2004, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: [edit] And, Bluto, while an ad hom is a nice distraction, I'm looking for some freaking rebuttal, not your unconditional retreat! [/edit I think the problem I have with your point of view Coylec is you are relying on hypothetical and academic superlatives, rather than any honest examination of how freedom of speech functions in a society at war. Freedom of speech has never been absolute in the United States. To insist that it it ever has been, or ever should be, shows a certain level of either ignorance or aloof pseudo-intellectual detachment.
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