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sidepull
Jun 10, 2002, 4:10 PM
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What do you think about this:
http://www.climbing.com/Pages/editorial00.html
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bobtheboulderer
Jun 10, 2002, 4:30 PM
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Part of freedom in America is the freedom to buy the best products at the best price-that includes buying from foreign companies. I rarely do that, as I exercise my freedom by buying from American companies. If I need something quick, I drop by the shop and buy it. If I can wait, I usually buy from an American .com.
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dondiego
Jun 10, 2002, 4:40 PM
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Interesting to think about the different ramifications that can come from actually paying a fair price for ropes, shoes, etc. I posted to a thread last night about contributing to The Access Fund and found that several people say that they can't afford to contribute. I guess if you save $50-$70 on your new rope, you can contribute half of that to the AF. I feel for the small shops and what this will do for them, but to be made to feel guilty about not wanting to pay $140 for a pair of shoes that are just rubber and suede glued together is someone's (who I'm sure makes much more $$$ than me) way of not accepting the direction of how things are going. It has haoppened in every other industry, why not ours.
-Don Diego-
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hangdoggypound
Jun 10, 2002, 4:44 PM
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I think that these Euro dot.coms are going to screw themselves. They are throwing a kink in the market by offering the end user a wholesale price. But if they can purchase direct from the manufacturer, you would think they would want to move mountain-loads of ropes (for example) in every order to our local mtn shops, instead of selling one rope to me or you at that same price. They would probably move more units, bring in more $$$, and create a better biz-network if they were to be wholesaling.
Plus, let's say there is a problem with my order for one rope: it's damaged in shipment. Not a chance i'm going to climb on that sucker. But, I waited 6 weeks for it to get across the Atlantic, and they probably don't want to deal with the return on merely one unit, and then it would be 12 more weeks before I got a replacement. Gee, I spent less money and got screwed.
I think we need that market-flow of manf. to dist. to retailer for our protection as consumers.
Also, when I go to my local mountain shop I get to make plans, or meet a new partner, or find out about local access issues etc.
Mark
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natec
Jun 10, 2002, 5:02 PM
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This is something that is being overlooked. I would like to try to illustrate it to the best of my abilities.
The manufacturers do not make money from the consumer. They make their money from the shops and .coms. If American shops begin to close it will have an enormous impact on the manufacturer's income. Some small shops may suffer from this, but not to the extent that a lot of individuals would like to have it seem.
The manufacturers will never let it get to the point where you can only buy your gear in Europe because the foreign .coms have shut everyone down in the U.S. If the manufacturers were to do that, they would be cutting their own throats. Their profit margin is higher from American shops than it is for European shops. Our American stores are the bread and butter. Evidence of this is shown in the fact that LaSportiva has made drastic moves to get its shoes out of the hands of the European sites who are taking advantage of their lower wholesale prices.
I am not saying that we shouldn't worry about buying at all. My point is that you should always support fellow Americans when possible. I am a huge fan of GearExpress.com. They are great guys and get my money whenever possible. What I am saying is that if you decide to save 50% because you bought your shoes from Sportextreme.com or Barrabes.com, do it while you can because this trend won't last. It does not spell success for any of the businesses involved and will change soon.
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wigglestick
Jun 10, 2002, 5:10 PM
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This topic reminds me of the early 90's(?) when there was a huge backlash against foreign made cars and trucks. We were bombarded with messages to "Buy American" because it created jobs and helped the economy. It was a beautiful marketing job. I remember seeing signs posted in parking lots saying that foreign cars were not welcome in that lot. Then the foreign car makers realized that they could save money by building the cars in the states rather than shipping them over. So now the "foreign" cars are more likely to be built in the States than a chevy or ford. I have faith that the collective business savvy of the european equipment manufacturers and the american small business owners will somehow find a way to make a buck in this industry.
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rck_climber
Jun 10, 2002, 6:04 PM
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:Always the Devil's Advocate:
Perhaps, instead, it will show the manufacturers that we will no longer put up with paying 10 times the price that it costs them to manufacture these things.
Cross-reference this post, for some examples of what I mean.
Hopefully, manufacturers will get a rude awakening and have to slash their prices so that we don't have to go oversees to make our purchases. If these dot.coms can charge that little and stay in business, the manufacturers need to figure out a way for our local stores to be able to do the same thing.
:End Devil's Advocate:
Mick
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ntrop33
Jun 10, 2002, 6:22 PM
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Two main issues here:
1. The whole foreign vs. domestic free trade vs. protectionsism thing.
2. The internet "free rider" problem where folks try things on at the store and buy online instead.
As for #1, my opinion is the "buy American" attitude is understandable, but a bunch of crap. If we had listened to them 100 years ago, we would all still be sewing blouses or hacking away in the coal mines all day. Short-term problems aside, free trade is a good thing for all parties involved.
As for #2, the same thing was hyped at the beginning of the .com rush and bricks and mortar stores were supposed to be obsolete by now. Some re-shuffling has occured for sure, but the BAMs are still around. Bottom line is that trying on 15 pairs of shoes to find the right one, then bolting home to order online and then wait for the mail to arrive is a pain in the ass. People want gratification sooner than later - to be rewarded for that hour spent shopping with a new goody in hand. Maybe the US climbing retailers should follow the example of Gap et al and get their own websites up and running. . .
Oh, and since when is cutting out a middle-man and saving everyone some money a BAD THING for any economy?
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dondiego
Jun 10, 2002, 6:49 PM
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I support the "buy american" theory, but one other thing that the foreign influence did to American automakers was to force them to make a better product for a better price. Toyota makes less than 1/3 off of each car it sells than the Big three here in the U.S. do but it still manages to make a car that we can afford and that will virtually last forever now. I drive a Jeep because I want to support my countries economy but I don't blame those that pay less for something that will probably last longer just because it is made in another country. To tell the truth, I haven't studied my gear and where it is manufactured, I just rely on what other, more experienced, climbers use as a guide to what might work for me. In short, save money and buy online, it will force Americans to compete. When we are forced to a challemge, history shows that we are always up for it.
-Don Diego-
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treyr
Jun 10, 2002, 9:34 PM
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I think it is a pretty good idea
Trob
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sidepull
Jun 11, 2002, 5:18 PM
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I'm happy to see such a big response to this thread.
I find several fallacies in the editor's reasoning.
First, quality won't suffer from Americans buying products at the same price as Euros, if that were to be the case it would have already happened.
Second, local shops aren't always that great. Having traveled to quite a few in several states it's obvious that the ones that have workers invested in the sport will remain.
Third, this won't destroy funding for Access. From what I've seen -- and this site is a perfect example -- the internet does more to create a climbing community than local shops. Look how much awareness and support the Southeast Climbing Coalition has been able to generate for Boat Rock and other areas.
I think US shops will have to adapt. Climbing products have been overpriced for years, it's about time the climbers got a break!
[ This Message was edited by: sidepull on 2002-06-11 10:19 ]
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indigo_nite
Jun 11, 2002, 6:59 PM
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This is a tricky topic because I am one Cheap climber (get blem camalots, get store display shoes for 50% off, and have browsed a spanish gear site). I still believe in supporting small mom 'n pop shops though because they tend to have the most helpful salespeople and more specialized gear/brands. I've been shifting my purchases in gear to more online/outlet but not yet overseas (because of return or tax questions).
All I can think is that American stores (including small shops) can compete by selling American gear online (Black Diamond, Metolius, aren't those huge reputation brands) and then by doing better international marketing (put up spanish language pages or others).
But for Climbing mag, not carrying dot.com ads will probably not really prevent a lot of U.S. climbers from going there because so many people have internet access and share that kind of info anyways. It seems like a short-term way to deal.
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litedawg
Jun 11, 2002, 8:16 PM
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Evolution, plain and simple. Evolution and innovation. Remember the big stick that was made when companies (both foreign and domestic) started seling product online. Everybody foretold the demise of brick and mortar retail as we knew it.
did Amazon.com put Barnes and Noble out of business? No.
Will these overseas wholesaleers spell the doom for REI? No.
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boretribe
Jun 11, 2002, 9:05 PM
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Something thing I would like to set straight... Two people dismissed the idea of 'the death of brick and mortar companies' by using The Gap and Barnes and Noble; two huge multi-national corporations with enough capital to establish strong web presences. Come on, these companies are nothing like the small shops that the article was talking about. At least use a realistic example like GearExpress.com (Starved Rock Outfitters) and you might begin to convince me.
I have a friend that runs a small shop and, although his prices are as good and sometimes better than those found online, his business is still hurting. While I'm not saying that the rise of online shopping is solely responsible for his loss of business, I do believe it has contributed to it. The more online stores are hyped as having the best prices, the more people will automatically go online to make their purchases rather than drive a few miles to compare. It's too easy to say that they should just start an online shop (i.e. GearExpress). When it is hard to pay the bills just to stay open; coming up with the extra funds for an online presence is not an option.
As far as those Euro online shops having unbeatable prices on some gear, it is not the fault of anybody except our government. It's called import tariffs. Our shops have to pay them and of course it is passed along to us the consumer. It's called international trade.
I'm not telling anybody where to shop, but I know I like having a place that I can trust for good deals and well informed, honest advice. I like RC.com and its members, but when I feel like kicking back and talking about climbing I don't want to be staring at a cathode ray tube, and I don't want to bore my wife I head down to my local climbing store and waste hours. That is one thing you will never get from some online store.
Is not life a hundred times too short for us to bore ourselves?
--FN
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pushfurther
Jun 11, 2002, 9:32 PM
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i talked to the owner of the gym in Tulsa. he sells shoes, clothes, and a little gear. he said 5.10 sent him a letter saying thatstarting soon, 5.10 is only selling shoes to companies that own a building in which someone can go inside and buy. they can have a website, but they have to have the building. if they don't have the building, the minimum order is $10k andthere was another stipulation, but i can't remember it..
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cedk
Jun 11, 2002, 9:51 PM
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I think if possible it's important to support local shops.
I'm agreeing with most everything Boretribe said, though I think that in addition to or perhaps instead of import tariffs price is often also dictated by manufacturers whose marketing departments determine the price gear will sell at in different countries. Notice that the price of Metolius and BD cams or Petzl 'biners doesn't fluctuate that much here in the states?
I suspect as well that local shops are being hurt by some of the new cheaper European manufacturers. Everyone's favorite new Czech cams come to mind as an example. Do any brick and mortar's cary Robots?
The web is a good resource if a certain type of gear is unavailable locally. Kong springs to mind as an example of a company that makes a lot of unique gear but doesn't seem to have as many distribution channels as some of the other companys.
I try to only go to the web for gear which is unavailable locally.
One final thought. Buying American vs. buying foreign is an outmoded concept in today's economy but supporting your friends is not and will never be.
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jman
Jun 11, 2002, 10:14 PM
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Does the increase in internet sales of climbing gear mean that this sport is becoming main stream? As tempting as shopping on line for gear is I'm still probably going to shop at the local stores. I have a hard time putting a price on getting gear advice face to face from a more experienced climber that you trust. I just would not feel comfortable getting free advice from a small retailer and going behind their back to make a purchase on the internet.
Just my 2 cents.
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orngave
Jun 11, 2002, 10:51 PM
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I must say that when it comes to smaller items, 10 bucks and less I will go to a climbing store. If I need something like shoes, ropes, crashpads, I have to go online, I am a poor college kid on a climbing team who doesn't get a break like the rest of his co-athletic teammates. Climbing manufacturers don't even cut us deals that can match the online prices.
Second, the only reason climbing shoes are so expensive in the U.S. is because there is a tariff against cheaper european shoes. So it will protect the economy of the american climbing shoe. But as JOHN SMITH said every man for himself, that is what our economy is based on. If american companies can't keep up with their european counterparts. Then by all american accounts, they should go out of buissiness. I don't want them to, because I find like many others that it is nice to go in a store, but when I go in and try on a pair of boreal zen's for 149 dollars, then go home and find them online for 49, my tightly bound college wallet has to opt for the cheaper of the two.
E.B.
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couloir
Jun 11, 2002, 11:37 PM
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If I can save a good deal of money by purchasing from a European .com, I will. I'm all for supporting your local shops, but if they never cut you any sort of deal, then they are just screwing themselves. It's obvious they don't care about you or your interests. All they care about is money. I know the European .coms supply lots of safety information on their websites and give news of what's going on.
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dondiego
Jun 12, 2002, 12:39 AM
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If climbers weren't suing them for accidents that were more likely than not the fault of the climber (using gear improperly, not replacing it as needed) then we wouldn't have to pay extra to cover liability insurance. In the end it's not the fault of those that make products or even the lawyers, it is the fault of the sue-all mentality that our society has that the prices are so high. We all love to climb ROCKS! The higher and the harder, the better. Maybe I'm crazy but there is an inherent risk in doing this so if you aren't ready to accept that, don't climb.
If the small shops came closer to the prices on the net, they would move more product therefore maintaining a profit.
-Don Diego-
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hornj
Jun 12, 2002, 2:51 AM
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This is a topic that kind of hits home with me as my family has a small dot com business and we have been struggling for some years now to make it profitable. It is not all that easy to do. How this relates to Climbing Magazine is we spent a good chunk of change to run a series of ads in climbing magazine last fall. The returns were just keeping up with the cost of the ads until they ran that editorial and almost all sales from the ads dried up. We are an American dot com company but the whole tone of the editorial pretty broadly painted us all as bad. It was our intention to run another ad series this fall but this has put it in a holding pattern.
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dondiego
Jun 12, 2002, 3:05 AM
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Joel,
Sometimes they don't make it too clear who is the bad guy when they start talking about the evil internet but I wish you the best of luck. What's your web address? I'll send it around to some of my pals.
-Don Diego-
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hornj
Jun 12, 2002, 3:29 AM
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Thanks for the support Don Diego. It is www.hornsjewelry.com and www.rockclimbingjewelry.com I would appreciate any feedback from anyone who feels inclined. Is there any market for this type of climbing jewelry or should I drop the line? Sorry I am not trying to self promote just curious.
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ntrop33
Jun 20, 2002, 5:32 PM
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Hornj-
In response to your request for feedback - I can't imagine that there is a big market for such climbing jewelry. Great idea to be sure. But for the same reason that you don't see tennis players sporting tennis racket earrings I don't think many climbers would want to make such an obvious "in the face" statement.
I like the mountain/lake pendants though. . .
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elvislegs
Jun 20, 2002, 5:54 PM
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hornj, I think it should sell, but you should place an ad on this site, lots of exposure with few competing ads. It's cool stuff, I might get some. good luck!
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