|
|
|
|
rgold
Jan 3, 2005, 7:16 PM
Post #26 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
If you actually read the threads, you will find that the same differences of opinion occur over and over, and that this thread just repeats opinions already given multiple times. Searching on "rappel back up" on this site gives four threads to read. You might also want to read the summaries on Tradgirl. Then on to rec.climbing, where you will get 1,960 hits for "rappel back up." No doubt other sites that keep archives will have similar treasure troves of redundant and sometimes contradictory information.
It is possible to learn something from these discussions, provided you already know a lot. For a beginner with no ability to sort the wheat from the chaff, they almost entirely useless, except that they illustrate that there is no one best way to do anything in climbing, and what matters most is to fully understand the advantages and drawbacks of whatever system you are using and be able to use alternative methods, including no methods, when they are more appropriate.
So what should you, as a beginner, do? I'd say come back to the forums after you've had a lot of rappelling experience, but first of all seek out advice from a trustworthy source. Nowadays this means a professional guide or school with some kind of certification---there is no shortage of these in your home town. You might also want to consult Craig Luebben's book How to Climb: Rappelling, Revised Edition, Falconguides, 2000 for $9.95.
Finally, some unrequested advice. Rapelling is a complex collection of activities, and beginners often ignore some aspects at their peril or others peril. There is locating and setting up an anchor, including safety for those at the anchor, where the ropes should and should not run, maximizing the ease of pulling, and avoiding rockfall, throwing or lowering or rappelling with the ropes, whether or not to have knots at the ends of the ropes, what type of knot to use in joining the ropes if two are needed, the actual process of rappelling, including recognizing when extra friction may be needed and knowing how to provide it, methods of stopping and freeing the hands, preventing hair and/or clothing from jamming in the friction device, methods of getting your weight off the friction device, how to drop over ceilings, how to react to unexpected slips and swings, yes, the different back-up methods including the "fireman's belay," their advantages and disadvantages and how to deal with them, and finally strategies for retrieving the rope and, of course, ascending the rope if that proves necessary. There is a lot to learn, and focusing on one topic, like rappel backups, can easily contribute to a dangerously false sense of security.
Rapelling is both easy and dangerous. You are relying completely on your equipment and mistakes can be fatal. Backups do not prevent all possible problems and can in some cases create ones of their own. The only substitute for experienced instruction is trial and error, which is the way many of us old farts learned. However, considering the price of most rapelling errors, it is best to profit from someone else's mistakes.
|
|
|
|
|
el_jerko
Jan 3, 2005, 9:33 PM
Post #27 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 3, 2005
Posts: 179
|
Uhhh...yeah, there is a lot of information and a lot of systems. In summery I contend that an autoblock attached to a leg loop is the way to go.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 10:00 PM
Post #28 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
And so it goes...
One thing about an auto block-- if you don't set it, it may not block anything.
Also, Beware putting too few wraps on an auto block. It may hold at first, and then start to slip. Or it may not hold at all, if there are way too few wraps.
If you have too many wraps, you will have a hard time getting going and making a smooth rappel.
You need to play with your own rope and autoblock sling and find out the best number of wraps for your setup.
|
|
|
|
|
wa_hoo
Jan 4, 2005, 2:45 AM
Post #29 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 26, 2004
Posts: 203
|
I'm wondering where you guys practiced before you were 80' up a rock? Is it reasonable to just take an experienced friend/guide and our new rope and equipment with us to our gym with the ledge and chains 20' up and practice? Other ideas?
|
|
|
|
|
dutyje
Jan 4, 2005, 2:55 AM
Post #30 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 727
|
In reply to: I'm wondering where you guys practiced before you were 80' up a rock? Is it reasonable to just take an experienced friend/guide and our new rope and equipment with us to our gym with the ledge and chains 20' up and practice? Other ideas?
Like I said before.. I suspended myself like a dweeb from a heavy duty aluminum ladder with stabilizer bars in my garage. Rappelled about 3-4 feet to the ground, practiced letting the friction knot catch and then releasing it. Practiced with different extensions of my belay device, different knots, etc.
Another good option would be to practice your rappel with a top rope backup. If you've got the facilities at a gym, though, I'd honestly just say to throw a crash pad on the floor, set your rappel from a low (< 15') anchor, and give it a shot. It's very easy to set up a rappel, and any half-competent instructor can show you how in less than 10 minutes, including your backup knot.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 2:59 AM
Post #31 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Now.. I've been climbing outdoors for less than a year. Indoors, I have 3 years of experience, but 2 of those came a long time ago so don't really count.
In other words you are a novice who is not qualified to comment on this topic. At least you disclosed your experience level, which is more than most do.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 3:03 AM
Post #32 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: its funny that the tibloc, is, by far and away, the most misspelled climbing word ever.
It's repelling.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 3:14 AM
Post #33 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: i would recomend a figure-8 for rapping though instead of an atc, they're less than ten bucks, and act's tend to get toasty on rappel.
Another ignorant n00b with an opinion. Oh boy. The figure-8 rappel device is the only rappel device with a documented history of breaking the rappel carabiner, leading to several reported, and who knows how many unreported, fatal accidents. It also unnecessarily twists the ropes. The device is outdated, except possibly for specialized rescue work.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 3:15 AM
Post #34 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: i would recomend a figure-8 for rapping though instead of an atc, they're less than ten bucks, and act's tend to get toasty on rappel.
Another ignorant n00b with an opinion. Oh boy. The figure-8 rappel device is the only rappel device with a documented history of breaking the rappel carabiner, leading to several reported, and who knows how many unreported, fatal accidents. It also unnecessarily twists the ropes. The device is outdated, except possibly for specialized rescue work.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 3:20 AM
Post #35 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: It may be slightly overkill on one-pitch sport climbs, but I know I tend to not think very mechanically at times and benefit from a little extra protection.
Rappelling itself is taking unnecessary risk on a sport climb. Have your partner lower you.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Jan 4, 2005, 6:44 AM
Post #36 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
my $0.02 ..
.. i think the question of what works and what equipment to use has been answered ..
.. i used to only use a prussik as a backup .. (above the ATC).
.. this works fine most of the time. but beware of the following problem.
If you engage the prussik and cannot take your weight off the knot to disengage it .. you'll be stuck! ..
.. this happened to me while i was rapelling from the first pitch of Tangerine trip on El capitan .. the rappel is about 100' of nothing but air, you are about 20' away from the wall as you rap. I was also ladden with a big-wall climbing rack (about 30+ lbs of gear) .. about 10' from the ground i decided to test if the prussik would hold me, so i let it engage and then let go of the rope. It held.. but then since i was hanging in air (now about 5' from the ground) .. i couldn't disengage the prussik (i would have needed my ascenders to do so, and they were hidden somewhere in the pile of gear all over my body) ..
.. anyways .. long story short, i got my knife out and cut the prussik off, and finished the rappel.
moral of the story: know the downsides of whatever method you use to backup your rappel .. and carry a knife when you climb.
|
|
|
|
|
johnnord
Jan 4, 2005, 6:53 AM
Post #37 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2003
Posts: 162
|
In reply to: my $0.02 .. .. i think the question of what works and what equipment to use has been answered .. .. i used to only use a prussik as a backup .. (above the ATC). .. this works fine most of the time. but beware of the following problem. If you engage the prussik and cannot take your weight off the knot to disengage it .. you'll be stuck! .. .. this happened to me while i was rapelling from the first pitch of Tangerine trip on El capitan .. the rappel is about 100' of nothing but air, you are about 20' away from the wall as you rap. I was also ladden with a big-wall climbing rack (about 30+ lbs of gear) .. about 10' from the ground i decided to test if the prussik would hold me, so i let it engage and then let go of the rope. It held.. but then since i was hanging in air (now about 5' from the ground) .. i couldn't disengage the prussik (i would have needed my ascenders to do so, and they were hidden somewhere in the pile of gear all over my body) .. .. anyways .. long story short, i got my knife out and cut the prussik off, and finished the rappel. moral of the story: know the downsides of whatever method you use to backup your rappel .. and carry a knife when you climb. |
|
|
|
|
smileygladhands
Jan 4, 2005, 11:16 AM
Post #38 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 4, 2005
Posts: 1
|
first off ever heard of a Petzl Shunt
second dudes right atc is better for your ropes then the figure 8 / belay plate style system less kinking and twisting of the ropes = longer rope lifespan
p.s. check out the petzl shunt i use one in combination with a atc-xp versus the grigri, the website will give u a good idea on its aplication.
oh yeah rappelling is fun being an inexperienced climber = not fun
go to barns and noble and get some basics books, study , then take classes on safety and basics,then pay the money to go outside and hit the walls with an experienced guide its worth the money you can learn a lot in one day, crawl walk run. safe = fun
|
|
|
|
|
cantbuymefriends
Jan 4, 2005, 11:58 AM
Post #39 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 670
|
Since it was discussed through the first 2 pages of this thread, YES! :roll: :roll:
Ever heard of reading a thread before responding to it? Oh, right! You couldn't, since this was your first post...
|
|
|
|
|
dutyje
Jan 4, 2005, 12:20 PM
Post #40 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 727
|
In reply to: In reply to: Now.. I've been climbing outdoors for less than a year. Indoors, I have 3 years of experience, but 2 of those came a long time ago so don't really count. In other words you are a novice who is not qualified to comment on this topic. At least you disclosed your experience level, which is more than most do. -Jay
It's been said many times before.. this is the internet.. you'll get all sorts of advice. I try to qualify all of my posts with the verbiage in my signature line. At least I'm not some self-righteous freak gumby tied to an internet site 24 hours a day seeking out people to bash.
And it's a rappel backup.. not rocket science.. I don't think I need 25 years of climbing experience to talk about backing up a rappel. And I'm pretty good about stating my experience level and recommending the advice of experts. But I have just as much right to weigh in as the next person.
|
|
|
|
|
1873ak
Jan 4, 2005, 5:19 PM
Post #41 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 22
|
"Another ignorant n00b with an opinion. Oh boy. The figure-8 rappel device is the only rappel device with a documented history of breaking the rappel carabiner, leading to several reported, and who knows how many unreported, fatal accidents. It also unnecessarily twists the ropes. The device is outdated, except possibly for specialized rescue work.
-Jay"
Gotta ask, and I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed since that seems to be the standard around here. I've been climbing for a few years, rappelling for many years behond that and I've used most every type of device made. Please describe to me how a figure 8 could actually break the carabiner unless it was rigged improperly. I've done single line and double line rappels on figure 8's and have yet to see how this happens, and further how it is the figure 8's fault.
Thanks,
Charles
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 6:27 PM
Post #42 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: I'm wondering where you guys practiced before you were 80' up a rock? Is it reasonable to just take an experienced friend/guide and our new rope and equipment with us to our gym with the ledge and chains 20' up and practice? Other ideas?
This question comes up so much, and get so many bad answers, when a simple and obvious way exists, it makes me want to scream.
Try this, for a safe way to get an idea of rappelling:
Take your basic bomber top rope setup.
From the ground, set up your rappel device and backup. make sure you have done this correctly. Test it by taking all the slack out of the system and sitting down, with your hands in what you think is the correct position.
If this is good, and you don't start sliding down or fall to the ground, you are ready for stage 2.
Now batman (watch the old batman show, you'll get the idea if you don't know already what this means) up the wall about 2 feet, and sit into the rap position again. rap down the 2 feet to the ground. repeat. Go a little higher and repeat. Don't go high enough to get hurt if you screw up until you and someone who knows what they are doing both feel comfortable that you are OK for the most basic rappel.
I repeat: Do this under supervision!
Now, there is a lot more to rappelling than just going down a slab or vertical face or even a free hanging rappel-- You will have to learn how to negotiate a roof for instance, among other things, and for these things you want instruction and supervision as well, so don't think if you can rap 3 feet down a top rope setup you are good for all rappel situations.
But this is a good way and a safe way to start, and you run no risk of falling 20 feet or more on your first rappel and screwing up your life, which has happened all too often.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 7:01 PM
Post #43 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Now.. I've been climbing outdoors for less than a year. Indoors, I have 3 years of experience, but 2 of those came a long time ago so don't really count. In other words you are a novice who is not qualified to comment on this topic. At least you disclosed your experience level, which is more than most do. -Jay And it's a rappel backup.. not rocket science.. I don't think I need 25 years of climbing experience to talk about backing up a rappel.
In reply to: For this same reason, I always put knots in the ends of my rappel ropes, even when I've done the climb before and know the ropes will reach the ground.
How much climbing experience do you need before you understand that sometimes knotting the ends of your ropes makes the rappel less safe? Apparently, more than a year.
In reply to: But I have just as much right to weigh in as the next person.
What you have is a responsibility to refrain from giving safety advice to beginners until you are sufficiently qualified.
To the beginners following this thread: Beware of anybody who says they "always" do anything one particular way in climbing. This is usually the mark of an inexperienced climber.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 7:16 PM
Post #44 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: "Another ignorant n00b with an opinion. Oh boy. The figure-8 rappel device is the only rappel device with a documented history of breaking the rappel carabiner, leading to several reported, and who knows how many unreported, fatal accidents. It also unnecessarily twists the ropes. The device is outdated, except possibly for specialized rescue work. -Jay" Please describe to me how a figure 8 could actually break the carabiner unless it was rigged improperly. Thanks, Charles
Although rigged properly initially, when lowering over the edge at the start of a rappel, the carabiner, momentarily unweighted, can rotate such that the small ring of the figure 8 places an outside-to-inside levering force against the locking sleeve of the carabiner. Then, when weighted again when the climber establishes himself on the rappel, the locking sleeve, which is just thin aluminum and not designed to be weight bearing, can break under body weight alone. Since the force is directed inward, the gate opens, and more often than not, the figure 8 detaches from the carabiner, resulting in a fall from the top of the rappel, which is usually fatal. This is not known to be a risk with any other belay device.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 7:29 PM
Post #45 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: In reply to: "Another ignorant n00b with an opinion. Oh boy. The figure-8 rappel device is the only rappel device with a documented history of breaking the rappel carabiner, leading to several reported, and who knows how many unreported, fatal accidents. It also unnecessarily twists the ropes. The device is outdated, except possibly for specialized rescue work. -Jay" Please describe to me how a figure 8 could actually break the carabiner unless it was rigged improperly. Thanks, Charles Although rigged properly initially, when lowering over the edge at the start of a rappel, the carabiner, momentarily unweighted, can rotate such that it places an outside-to-inside levering force against the locking sleeve of the carabiner. Then, when weighted again when the climber establishes himself on the rappel, the locking sleeve, which is just thin aluminum and not designed to be weight bearing, can break under body weight alone. Since the force is directed inward, the gate opens, and more often than not, the figure 8 detaches from the carabiner, resulting in a fall from the top of the rappel, which is usually fatal. This is not known to be a risk with any other belay device. -Jay
With all those newer devices that have a solid ring of metal to attach to the belay biner I'm sure some will be used for rappelling and before long the same cross loading of the biner gate will happen with them as can happen with a figure 8.
System failure is another good reason to use a rappel backup-- better to be hanging upside down by your leg loop auto block than to be a grease spot on the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
el_jerko
Jan 4, 2005, 7:33 PM
Post #46 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 3, 2005
Posts: 179
|
Wa Hoo,
If you want to monkey around with rap backups, or anything else for that matter, while hanging from your rope just pull up a bunch of slack and tie in (with both ropes of coarse) then drop the slack. If your system somehow fails you will only fall to your tie in point. In the event that you do not fall and rap down to your tie in, tie in again and then release the original tie in. I like to tie in with clove hitches and locking biners, but any kind of loop clipped to your harness with a locker will work.
|
|
|
|
|
dutyje
Jan 5, 2005, 2:06 AM
Post #47 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 727
|
In reply to: In reply to: For this same reason, I always put knots in the ends of my rappel ropes, even when I've done the climb before and know the ropes will reach the ground. How much climbing experience do you need before you understand that sometimes knotting the ends of your ropes makes the rappel less safe? Apparently, more than a year. In reply to: But I have just as much right to weigh in as the next person. What you have is a responsibility to refrain from giving safety advice to beginners until you are sufficiently qualified. To the beginners following this thread: Beware of anybody who says they "always" do anything one particular way in climbing. This is usually the mark of an inexperienced climber. -Jay
You're right.. There are circumstances when knotting the ends of the rope is "less" safe.. To be honest, I didn't think it was necessary to start that discussion given the context of this thread. Also, in my limited experience, I have never been in a situation such as high wind where I would even consider leaving the ropes unknotted. I still think it's good practice to make a habit of doing it every time, and try to learn when it is or is not a good idea.
I always give rope to my climber when he calls for slack.
I always yell "rope" when I'm about to throw ropes down.
I always make sure I've doubled back my harness.
I always do the same for my partner.
I always carry a pair of prusiks on my harness.
etc... etc... etc...
Anyway, the web is still an excellent forum. I've at least been around this site enough to know that if I say something incorrect, a dozen "experts" will be around to point out my flaws and discuss ad nauseum. That's why I think it's important to contribute my opinion here. If I say something wrong, I'm corrected. It also often inspires good conversation.
It's a shame that so many people are intimidated from asking questions or contributing to these forums. We could validate and invalidate information for so many people. Instead, we take an elitist attitude to anybody who doesn't feel the need to spray about their superiority.
I have appreciated much that you've lent to the discussions in these forums. I only wish that you would be more constructive in your approach. I feel you would reach a lot more people if you communicated like the leader you strive to be. I realize that it's just your style, but many people take offense. I, on the other hand, am usually entertained. I encourage you to review anything I've said in the past and correct me if I've been wrong. It's input I always want to hear, in the interest of my own personal growth and safety, regardless of your patronization and faux intellect.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 5, 2005, 2:43 AM
Post #48 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: For this same reason, I always put knots in the ends of my rappel ropes, even when I've done the climb before and know the ropes will reach the ground. How much climbing experience do you need before you understand that sometimes knotting the ends of your ropes makes the rappel less safe? Apparently, more than a year. In reply to: But I have just as much right to weigh in as the next person. What you have is a responsibility to refrain from giving safety advice to beginners until you are sufficiently qualified. To the beginners following this thread: Beware of anybody who says they "always" do anything one particular way in climbing. This is usually the mark of an inexperienced climber. -Jay You're right.. There are circumstances when knotting the ends of the rope is "less" safe.. To be honest, I didn't think it was necessary to start that discussion given the context of this thread. Also, in my limited experience, I have never been in a situation such as high wind where I would even consider leaving the ropes unknotted. I still think it's good practice to make a habit of doing it every time, and try to learn when it is or is not a good idea. I always give rope to my climber when he calls for slack. I always yell "rope" when I'm about to throw ropes down. I always make sure I've doubled back my harness. I always do the same for my partner. I always carry a pair of prusiks on my harness.
You were doing ok until that last one. n00b! :)
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
wa_hoo
Jan 5, 2005, 2:45 AM
Post #49 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 26, 2004
Posts: 203
|
In reply to: In reply to: It may be slightly overkill on one-pitch sport climbs, but I know I tend to not think very mechanically at times and benefit from a little extra protection. Rappelling itself is taking unnecessary risk on a sport climb. Have your partner lower you. -Jay
So I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that it is respectful to try and not wear out the bolt anchors on sport climbs as much as possible. If I am lowered off everything after cleaning the route, then I feel like I'm unnecessarily wearing down stuff.
I would prefer to just be lowered, and now I'm leaning that way, esp since we're both just leading 5.9's in the gym now and will only be doing single pitch stuff for at least a couple years.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 5, 2005, 2:56 AM
Post #50 of 127
(8717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: It may be slightly overkill on one-pitch sport climbs, but I know I tend to not think very mechanically at times and benefit from a little extra protection. Rappelling itself is taking unnecessary risk on a sport climb. Have your partner lower you. -Jay So I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that it is respectful to try and not wear out the bolt anchors on sport climbs as much as possible. If I am lowered off everything after cleaning the route, then I feel like I'm unnecessarily wearing down stuff.
You've got the right idea, but you took it further than is necessary, expected, and possibly prudent, especially for a beginner. The general rule is that the first person in your party to climb the route puts draws on the anchors, and that person and everyone after him/her except the last person lowers off the draws. The last person cleans the draws, threads the anchor, and lowers directly off the anchor. This is considered normal and acceptable wear and tear on the anchors, and is the accepted and expected practice at every sport climbing area I've ever been to or heard of. Occasionally, especially on older routes, the anchors may be placed far back, which may cause excessive wear to your rope if you were to lower. In that case you might elect to rappel to spare your rope.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
