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michaeld16
Dec 26, 2004, 7:32 AM
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well...use a breaker bar, a long climbing rope
and realize u gotta get back to the top by yourself
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moondog
Dec 26, 2004, 7:40 AM
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Hmmm. That alpine butterfly thingie might be good, but seems overly complicated to me (but I haven't actually used it - probably 'cuz I doubt I could tie it :oops: ).
I have used THIS ONE a lot and it works well (see right side of linked page). Easy to tie and untie, has clip-in loop, etc. Should be a short learning curve as it's just a fig. 8 on a bight with the second line retraced. Caveat: I've only used it with static/low-stretch rope, which is generally easier to untie after loading than dynamic.
Experiment with several knots (like the 2 already mentioned) before you go to decide what's best for you. Whatever knot you end up using, avoid the double fisherman's - that's one of the worst knots to untie after loading, especially in a single line configuration.
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jt512
Dec 27, 2004, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think we can get to the bottom, is very likely for us to get another rope. ---snip--- The extra rope might me 9mm... how safe would it be with 4 knots, 4 ropes...? Jay... Who can't add? I count 3 50m ropes, 1 100m rope, and one 60m rope. Looks like with that extra rope it's 310 meters. Minus some for knots, and you're still over 300 meters, with a 290 meter rappell.
Okay. I didn't see the fourth rope he took three posts to mention.
Personally, I think this is an accident waiting to happen.
-Jay
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sarcat
Dec 27, 2004, 6:07 PM
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Buy me a ticket and I'll bring my 600'er and a bunch of break bar racks and do it with you.
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robmcc
Dec 27, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: 1. I've heard that a knot tying two ropes reduces the load capacity by 50%... Getting one single rope that long is impossible here in Guatemala...
Just to address this specifically, yes, knots reduce the strength of the rope. The amount depends on the knot. If you're using climbing ropes, the breaking strength is huge. I don't have numbers handy, but I'm pretty sure it's north of 4,000 pounds. Body weight on a climbing rope with knots in it is not going to be a problem.
Some people have mentioned the danger of rappelling off the end. It wouldn't be a bad idea to put a knot in the end so you can't rap off it. With any luck, a religious war will ensue and others will post up the alternatives to a knot. I'd go with a knot, though. ;P
Rob
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asandh
Dec 27, 2004, 6:09 PM
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:idea:
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jt512
Dec 27, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Personally, I think this is an accident waiting to happen. -Jay Couldn't this statement equally apply to Sport Climbing ? :D
:?:
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asandh
Dec 27, 2004, 6:24 PM
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:idea:
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sarcat
Dec 27, 2004, 6:26 PM
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oh... My 600'er is a 7/16" static. I'd hate to really have to jug the whole thing.
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cyanamid
Dec 27, 2004, 7:20 PM
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Pad the edge at the top extensively, also you may want to take a roll of duct tape down with you to cover sharp edges the rope may rub against, you'll be able to remove the tape on the way back up. Sounds like a single line is your only way in and out, so take care of it.
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oklahoma_climber
Dec 27, 2004, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: Pad the edge at the top extensively, also you may want to take a roll of duct tape down with you to cover sharp edges the rope may rub against, you'll be able to remove the tape on the way back up. Sounds like a single line is your only way in and out, so take care of it.
good call, especially since you don't really know what you'll be hitting on the face as you go down.
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cyanamid
Dec 28, 2004, 12:24 AM
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Another suggestion, have someone up top with a radio tuned to your frequency. This person should have the resources and skill to bail you out if things go south. This has the potential for very real, very serious problems.
Good luck with your adventure, I hope things go smoothly and safely for you.
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hroldan
Jan 3, 2005, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: At least the guy is pursuing a bit of real adventure, I hope he goes for it. :D
Thanks!!!! we went for it and made a long rappel on a BIG cave and another on a long waterfall.
Well.. I have to thank you all for your help. I'm just back from the trip (it was far away). And yes, we were prepared with radios, ropes, enough gear to make backup tops and backups along the rappel. As well as good knowledge of passing knots and the rest...
BUT... the hole remain unexplored.
We got to the place and trust me, it is HUGE. We got 300 mts of rope. It takes a rock 5.4 seconds to reach the bottom. NO ONE, i repeat, NO one has ever reached the bottom and our felling was of respect, fear, admiration and... frustration for not being able of going down, and more after such a long trip, walk and carrying lots of gear.
A group of people who live around said that a discovery channel team visited the place and did not reached the bottom (this is has not been verified as true, might be a rumour.)
We thinkgthat for such long rappel we will need two lines for security, lots of money for gear, build at least 3 stations to rest and to compensate the weight on the ropes and lots of more gear... (oxigen, there is no data about gases, the plants do not consume oxygen so their existance is not something to trust)
I will be posting more information, picts and a video when i finish my report. For now, thank you all. There is a lot of danger involved into exploring the hole and it will need a lot of planification. Trust me, it is huge. For now we wonder about its origins. It is perfectly round and deep. Pure rock. And a forest below, diferent from the forest around the top.
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hroldan
Jan 3, 2005, 5:06 AM
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In reply to: At least the guy is pursuing a bit of real adventure, I hope he goes for it. :D
Thanks!!!! we went for it and made a long rappel on a BIG cave and another on a long waterfall.
Well.. I have to thank you all for your help. I'm just back from the trip (it was far away). And yes, we were prepared with radios, ropes, enough gear to make backup tops and backups along the rappel. As well as good knowledge of passing knots and the rest...
BUT... the hole remain unexplored.
We got to the place and trust me, it is HUGE. We got 300 mts of rope. It takes a rock 5.4 seconds to reach the bottom. NO ONE, i repeat, NO one has ever reached the bottom and our felling was of respect, fear, admiration and... frustration for not being able of going down, and more after such a long trip, walk and carrying lots of gear.
A group of people who live around said that a discovery channel team visited the place and did not reached the bottom (this is has not been verified as true, might be a rumour.)
We thinkgthat for such long rappel we will need two lines for security, lots of money for gear, build at least 3 stations to rest and to compensate the weight on the ropes and lots of more gear... (oxigen, there is no data about gases, the plants do not consume oxygen so their existance is not something to trust)
I will be posting more information, picts and a video when i finish my report. For now, thank you all. There is a lot of danger involved into exploring the hole and it will need a lot of planification. Trust me, it is huge. For now we wonder about its origins. It is perfectly round and deep. Pure rock. And a forest below, diferent from the forest around the top.
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hroldan
Jan 3, 2005, 5:08 AM
Post #41 of 63
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Registered: Mar 7, 2002
Posts: 330
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In reply to: At least the guy is pursuing a bit of real adventure, I hope he goes for it. :D
Thanks!!!! we went for it and made a long rappel on a BIG cave and another on a long waterfall.
Well.. I have to thank you all for your help. I'm just back from the trip (it was far away). And yes, we were prepared with radios, ropes, enough gear to make backup tops and backups along the rappel. As well as good knowledge of passing knots and the rest...
BUT... the hole remain unexplored.
We got to the place and trust me, it is HUGE. We got 300 mts of rope. It takes a rock 5.4 seconds to reach the bottom. NO ONE, i repeat, NO one has ever reached the bottom and our felling was of respect, fear, admiration and... frustration for not being able of going down, and more after such a long trip, walk and carrying lots of gear.
A group of people who live around said that a discovery channel team visited the place and did not reached the bottom (this is has not been verified as true, might be a rumour.)
We thinkgthat for such long rappel we will need two lines for security, lots of money for gear, build at least 3 stations to rest and to compensate the weight on the ropes and lots of more gear... (oxigen, there is no data about gases, the plants do not consume oxygen so their existance is not something to trust)
I will be posting more information, picts and a video when i finish my report. For now, thank you all. There is a lot of danger involved into exploring the hole and it will need a lot of planification. Trust me, it is huge. For now we wonder about its origins. It is perfectly round and deep. Pure rock. And a forest below, diferent from the forest around the top.
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veritasmmv
Jan 4, 2005, 3:40 AM
Post #42 of 63
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In reply to: One of us can't add. I'm getting that he'll be 30 meters short with those ropes.
Well the difference in estimations could be attributed to the need for taking into account the lenth of rope required to tie the anchor and the knots connecting the ropes. Unless it's simply a calculation error and neither of you thought of that, in which case you're both wrong... Yeah yeah I sound like a jerk for nitpicking your stuff and not calculating it myself but I'm not in a very math-y mood right now.
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ontario_guide
Jan 4, 2005, 5:39 AM
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Another idea would be to lower one of the people down through a figure-8 descender directly off the anchors. That way only one of you would have to pass the knots.
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timstich
Jan 4, 2005, 6:03 AM
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Cavers in the old days of one-size-fits-all ropes would tie as many together as was necessary to reach the bottom. Golondrinas, a deep pit in Xilitla of over 1100 feet deep, was first descended with more than a dozen ropes tied end to end. Imagine passing THAT many knots on the way down and up! Talk about a pain in the nether regions. In any case, it has been done before. However, you must practice crossing knots on rappel and while ascending repeatedly from a short height before you go off and try in in a pit. This is crucial. Crossing a knot on rappel is not simple if you don't have the right rigging/gear.
Hands down, the safest way to do this is to rappel with your ascending gear on. Rappel to just above the knot and clip both of your ascenders into the rope. Undo your rappeling device. Reach down and bring up the rope below the knot and rig your rappeling device into it and lock it off with a knot. Now, reach up and thumb the cam on the higher ascender and move it down. Transfer your weight to this ascender and then move down the unweighted ascender using the same technique. Your rappelling device will eventually become taut and you can remove the ascenders and continue the rappel.
Ascending is easier, but to keep two contacts with the rope attach either a third ascender as you move up, a prussik, or tie into a rigged loop at the knot with a tether. Once past, untie and continue climbing.
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ricardol
Jan 4, 2005, 6:27 AM
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this is pretty similar to what was being done on el cap this last season ..
.. a group of cavers set up a single rope from the top of el cap .. all the way to the bottom ..
they then rappelled and jugged the whole length of the captain several times.
.. it was pretty wild to see a single line stretched over 2000 feet ..
-- ricardo
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johnnord
Jan 4, 2005, 7:24 AM
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What a cool thread this is! Great adventure. This is why we climb.
Moondog and Slab-dyno - thanks for the links on knot passing techninque. I wish I had known either of those options the last time I had to pass a knot rappelling. Jumars make it fairly easy, but the loop looks cool. I love learning new things.
Question regarding the alpine butterfly: why not use a overhand knot instead of the double fishermans?
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v10gripper
Jan 4, 2005, 9:00 AM
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jump off!
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bflank
Jan 4, 2005, 1:18 PM
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Have you considered contacting the US National Spelological Society and trying to interest them in supplying both gear and expertise for an expedition. This sounds like the kind of trip that a sharp group of cavers could make work really well - and safely.
Their website is www.caves.org. I know that NSS has sponsored a number of South and Central American trips.
B. Flank
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timstich
Jan 4, 2005, 1:52 PM
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Actually, I should have said that you always have your ascending gear on when first descending a pit of unknown depth so you can immediately ascend if the rope does not reach. Do tie a knot in the end.
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hroldan
Jan 4, 2005, 3:22 PM
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I'm writing the report and organizing the picts and a piece of video.
Can canyone help my with the formula to calculate how deep the hole is?
it took a rock 5.4 seconds to reach the bottom
Yes, we always use a big not at the end of the rope in case this doesn't reach the bottom, thanks for the reminder, a friend of mine forgot to use it on a rappel on a bridge 4 months ago and fell on his back... he is ok now
Thanks bflank for the info. The hole is not a cave but i will write them. We are very interested on exploring this thing and any help will be apreciated.
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