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wa_hoo
Jan 5, 2005, 3:06 AM
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Thanks - I'll stop worrying about that then. I didn't realize the problem the first time outside, but then went back to the same place with more experience and noticed the bolt anchors were worn, no chains, and it was one of the only 5.7's in Clear Creek Canyon, so everyone is on it all the time. I guess that's when you decide to move on to another climb. I don't think I'd go back unless I knew they'd been replaced. The person I was with agreed they were getting thin.
Anyway - I feel much relief and will happily be lowered barring a bad rub on my rope. I plan on buying a couple longer slings to help with that problem.
I'll learn the rappel stuff with my ATC and backup autoblock using a sling hopefully at the gym if they let us (we've been members for awhile and think they might) becuase it's prudent, but not plan on using it sport climbing. Thanks again.
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dutyje
Jan 5, 2005, 3:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I always give rope to my climber when he calls for slack. I always yell "rope" when I'm about to throw ropes down. I always make sure I've doubled back my harness. I always do the same for my partner. I always carry a pair of prusiks on my harness. You were doing ok until that last one. n00b! :) -Jay
Hmm.. I'm stumped.. when would I not want a pair of prusiks on my harness? I seem to recall a thread on it within the last few months with varying opinions - but I'm at a loss for when I would choose to leave them behind (except bouldering or going to the gym).
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jt512
Jan 5, 2005, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I always give rope to my climber when he calls for slack. I always yell "rope" when I'm about to throw ropes down. I always make sure I've doubled back my harness. I always do the same for my partner. I always carry a pair of prusiks on my harness. You were doing ok until that last one. n00b! :) -Jay Hmm.. I'm stumped.. when would I not want a pair of prusiks on my harness? I seem to recall a thread on it within the last few months with varying opinions - but I'm at a loss for when I would choose to leave them behind (except bouldering or going to the gym).
Like REI price tags on your biners, they can't hurt. But they are superfluous on single-pitch sport climbs. And if you are trying something right at your limit, those few ounces you leave on the ground could make the difference between sending and not.
-Jay
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dutyje
Jan 5, 2005, 3:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I always give rope to my climber when he calls for slack. I always yell "rope" when I'm about to throw ropes down. I always make sure I've doubled back my harness. I always do the same for my partner. I always carry a pair of prusiks on my harness. You were doing ok until that last one. n00b! :) -Jay Hmm.. I'm stumped.. when would I not want a pair of prusiks on my harness? I seem to recall a thread on it within the last few months with varying opinions - but I'm at a loss for when I would choose to leave them behind (except bouldering or going to the gym). Like REI price tags on your biners, they can't hurt. But they are superfluous on single-pitch sport climbs. And if you are trying something right at your limit, those few ounces you leave on the ground could make the difference between sending and not. -Jay
So you take the price tags off? :)
I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to shed a few ounces by dropping a couple ovals and prusiks when I need to drop about 30 pounds off my gut :)
It is a good reminder (particularly for someone like me who tends to climb with too much gear) to really think about what you are going to need before leaving the ground. Thanks.
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jt512
Jan 5, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: It is a good reminder (particularly for someone like me who tends to climb with too much gear) to really think about what you are going to need before leaving the ground. Thanks.
Uh oh. How many belay devices do you usually carry?
-Jay
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dutyje
Jan 5, 2005, 4:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: It is a good reminder (particularly for someone like me who tends to climb with too much gear) to really think about what you are going to need before leaving the ground. Thanks. Uh oh. How many belay devices do you usually carry? -Jay
One.. but I've also always got enough spare ovals to make a 'biner brake. And I've always got my gloves hanging on my harness, too. :oops: Even if I'm "working" a 40-ft 5.5 on top rope :)
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danpayne
Jan 5, 2005, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: Wa Hoo, If you want to monkey around with rap backups, or anything else for that matter, while hanging from your rope just pull up a bunch of slack and tie in (with both ropes of coarse) then drop the slack. If your system somehow fails you will only fall to your tie in point. In the event that you do not fall and rap down to your tie in, tie in again and then release the original tie in. I like to tie in with clove hitches and locking biners, but any kind of loop clipped to your harness with a locker will work.
I hope this is a joke...
Another way you could backup a rappell is to bring a giant inflatable stunt-man bag to the bottom of the crag with a gas powered generator, inflate the bag, and place it under your desired climb, then when you are rapping, if you lose control, your safe!
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kalcario
Jan 5, 2005, 4:56 AM
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* If your system somehow fails you will only fall to your tie in point. In the event that you do not fall and rap down to your tie in, tie in again and then release the original tie in. I like to tie in with clove hitches and locking biners, but any kind of loop clipped to your harness with a locker will work.*
How is the systen going to fail so that a knot will save you? The knot will work only if you lose control of the system - "system failure" means the rappell device becomes detatched from the rope. And the reason you would lose control of the system is loss of conciousness. Would you rather be hanging upside-down from a knot in that situation, or be being lowered by your partner?
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climbersoze
Jan 5, 2005, 5:00 AM
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When climbing - rap with ATC, backup with prussik (rarely) or firemans belay
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moondog
Jan 5, 2005, 5:18 AM
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how do you rappel backup?
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el_jerko
Jan 5, 2005, 7:28 PM
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Danpayne and Kalcario,
My response was to Wa Hoo who was asking about practicing things like repel backups. I suggested that if you want to try it out while raping you can do so safely by tying into the rope. By no possible stretch of the imagination is this bad advice, yet you two still felt the need to criticize. What is your problem? If I am hanging by Gri Gri drilling or working out a stuck piece of gear, or if I am ascending a rope I always tie into the rope in case the “system fails.” Ascenders can and do pop off. Again, this is very sound advice. If I were raping and wanted to test my friction knot to see if it would really catch me, I would pull up some slack and tie into the rope first. If you two feel the need to analyze every post for errors for Gods sake shut up when someone posts something that is so obviously basic good advice.
Dutyje,
I understand your desire to carry a little gear such as prusiks and a few extra biners even while sport climbing. Although I am certain I will receive a rash of pointless criticism I am going to put my head on the chopping block and say that I would encourage you to continue despite what all the sporty spraylords think. In an emergency situation a few slings and some free biners can make a world of difference. I do not do much sport climbing but when I do I take as many draws as the route requires plus a couple of slings for the anchor. The extra gear I take is a tied nylon sling folded over several times with a locking biner at each end. In the event that I drop a draw, I can use it as a draw. I can use it for a friction knot because it is nylon (spectra is too slick). I have a couple extra biners if I need them, I personally would not carry a bunch of ovals for a biner brake, instead I would (and have) use a Munter Hitch. If the anchor is a manky wad of slings around a tree or whatever, I can untie my sling and add it to the anchor. For the weight of an extra draw it provides a lot of versatility.
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aikibujin
Jan 5, 2005, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Although rigged properly initially, when lowering over the edge at the start of a rappel, the carabiner, momentarily unweighted, can rotate such that it places an outside-to-inside levering force against the locking sleeve of the carabiner. With all those newer devices that have a solid ring of metal to attach to the belay biner I'm sure some will be used for rappelling and before long the same cross loading of the biner gate will happen with them as can happen with a figure 8.
Were you referring to the Reverso (which I do not own)? Please elaborate how the solid metal ring can cross load the biner open like the Figure 8 device. I cannot see it in my mind, since the Reverso and the Figure 8 set up differently for rappel.
I have seen the rope cinch down around the biner gate and crossload the biner, but that can happen with any belay device. It happened to me when I was using an ATC. A soft or rigid keeper loop makes no difference in this case.
Just curious.
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dirtineye
Jan 5, 2005, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Although rigged properly initially, when lowering over the edge at the start of a rappel, the carabiner, momentarily unweighted, can rotate such that it places an outside-to-inside levering force against the locking sleeve of the carabiner. With all those newer devices that have a solid ring of metal to attach to the belay biner I'm sure some will be used for rappelling and before long the same cross loading of the biner gate will happen with them as can happen with a figure 8. Were you referring to the Reverso (which I do not own)? Please elaborate how the solid metal ring can lever the biner open like the Figure 8 device. I cannot see it in my mind, since the Reverso and the Figure 8 set up differently for rappel. I have seen the rope cinch down around the biner gate and crossload the biner, but that can happen with any belay device. It happened to me when I was using an ATC.
I was not thinking about the reverso. I agree it is hard to imagine this happening with a reverso, but I don't own one, I just see my partner's and I try not to touch it cause I don't like it LOL.
There are several other devices with a big metal ring that attaches the device to the belay biner, that could possibly cross load the biner gate like a figure 8 can.
maybe it would be difficult for a device that sends the rope through the biner to lever the gate, and it seems the hole that the biner goes thorugh on these things is much smaller that the hile on the 8, maybe to prevent the ring from sliding over the gate, I don't know.
It's my guess, and it might not happen at all, but murphy's law and all that you know. Given that people are ingenious, I'm still sure that sooner or later someone will find a way to cross load a biner gate with something other than a figure 8.
Could it happen with a gri gri I wonder?
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cchildre
Jan 5, 2005, 9:39 PM
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I just got back from Potrero Monday! Learned to tie a prussik to my leg loop as a backup and to autolock my ATC during a Rap. This proved invaluable on many levels and I highly recommend using the technique as liberally as possible. The climb heist is great but only loads one direction. A prussik can be used to unweight the rope and make it easier to thread up my ATC, since it bites in either direction. Further, being the brain child that I am, I forgot my helment, and being the thoughtful partner I am. I used a prussik to back up my belay on the ground, so were I to recieve a skull puncture he would be able to safely tie off and descend the rope and find a replacement to belay him.
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moondog
Jan 5, 2005, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: There are several other devices with a big metal ring that attaches the device to the belay biner, that could possibly cross load the biner gate like a figure 8 can.
3 categories come to mind: rigging plates, brake bar racks, and via ferrata friction plates.
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outdoorsie
Jan 5, 2005, 10:39 PM
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Well, this may have been mentioned in the 3 pages of arguing over how to spell tiblock that I didn't bother to read (note: still don't know how to spell it. :) ).
The simplest and easiest backup to a rappell is a fireman's belay. Have somebody holding the ends of your rope, and when you loose control on the way down, they pull on the rope and you stop. Easy, simple, no problems.
Course, this definately isn't going to help you with the above problems of coming loose from the rope while rappelling, or setting up a rappel incorrectly (ie, not clipping the biner thru the rope when using an ATC... classic deadly mistake). And there are plenty of other places where other forms of backup should be used.
But for cleaning sport climbs, which it sounds like you are mostly interested in, the fireman's is great. It even gives your partner a chance to ask you to double check your setup, and to verify that both rope ends are on the ground, and that there's no knots or jammed up rope.
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hugepedro
Jan 5, 2005, 11:12 PM
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In reply to: about 10' from the ground i decided to test if the prussik would hold me, so i let it engage and then let go of the rope. It held.. but then since i was hanging in air (now about 5' from the ground) .. i couldn't disengage the prussik (i would have needed my ascenders to do so, and they were hidden somewhere in the pile of gear all over my body) .. .. anyways .. long story short, i got my knife out and cut the prussik off, and finished the rappel. moral of the story: know the downsides of whatever method you use to backup your rappel .. and carry a knife when you climb.
In reply to: No. The moral of the story is to put the prusik, or preferably the autoblock, BELOW the belay device. There are reasons why this is best practice. You have provided one example.
Well, another moral of the story is know how to unweight your prussik without using any additional gear. It's easy. Make a loop out of the slack rope that is in your brake hand. With your free hand, pinch that loop together with your rap line above your rap device. Stand in the loop. Your brake can is now free because your foot is engaging your rappel device. Use your free hand to loosen your prussik.
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hugepedro
Jan 5, 2005, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: Could it happen with a gri gri I wonder?
I seem to recall someone (Jay perhaps) posting something about a Gri Gri breaking the locking sleave in this fashion.
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david.yount
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Jan 5, 2005, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: its funny that the tibloc, is, by far and away, the most misspelled climbing word ever. It's repelling. -Jay
prusic
prussik
Dear Dr. Karl Prusik sleeps restfully nearly 40 years while we mangle his rather ordinary Austrian name.
kleimheist
climbheist
clemheist
Klemheist is the ascending hitch for me. Unless I use the Bachman.
cordalette
cordallette
cordellete
cordallete
Cordelette is a useful tool in emergency situations.
jay helped with this PSA
david yount.
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jt512
Jan 6, 2005, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Could it happen with a gri gri I wonder? I seem to recall someone (Jay perhaps) posting something about a Gri Gri breaking the locking sleave in this fashion.
Nope, not me. The hole in the grigri is too small.
Blame Canada! No, blame the Grigri!
-Jay
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johnnord
Jan 6, 2005, 12:07 AM
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David: Thanks for the spelling lesson. Az uh teechur, Eye byte mi tonge at sum uf teh spelin on theze fora (plural of forum?.)
John
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jt512
Jan 6, 2005, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: cordelette cordallette cordellete cordallete Cordalette is a useful tool in emergency situations. david yount.
It's "cordelette" according to Sterling's website.
-Jay
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danpayne
Jan 6, 2005, 12:23 AM
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See two posts down...
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johnnord
Jan 6, 2005, 12:29 AM
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Jay: What is Sterling's website?
John
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danpayne
Jan 6, 2005, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: Wa Hoo, If you want to monkey around with rap backups, or anything else for that matter, while hanging from your rope just pull up a bunch of slack and tie in (with both ropes of coarse) then drop the slack. If your system somehow fails you will only fall to your tie in point. In the event that you do not fall and rap down to your tie in, tie in again and then release the original tie in. I like to tie in with clove hitches and locking biners, but any kind of loop clipped to your harness with a locker will work.
Oh, wait a second here. I misunderstood this post. I thought that you intended this knot tying AS THE RAPPEL BACKUP, now I know you intend it as a means to backup the testing of different rappel backups. It still seems a bit excessive to me, but I just wanted to apoligize for mocking something I misunderstood in the first place....
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