Jay: What is Sterling's website?
John

Danpayne

I will clarify so that you will understand the “backup knot nonsense”: If I was rapping and testing a backup (the subject of my post) I would tie into the rope. If I were still testing and used up my slack I would tie in again. I am not suggesting that I regularly back up my raps by tying in nor would I suggest that others do so. I would agree that is a bit tricky to keep your belay device locked off while re-tying into the rope. I can tie in and out of a locker with one hand using clove hitches, but I am good with my hands as my girlfriend can testify. However, if you are testing a friction knot to see if it will lock your belay device (the subject of my post) and it does hold you, you can fiddle with the ropes with both hands. In my suggestion I stated that the slack be pulled up and second tie in completed before the first one is released for obvious safety reasons.

Another option: rather than fiddling with friction knots, mule knots, or stuntman air bags there is a very quick and easy way to get both hands free while rapping. I do not know if this is a standard practice or not but I have been doing it for many years. When I am rapping and want to free both hands for whatever reason what I do is wrap the rope around my right leg several times. It is very secure and locks up my belay device. Eventually the loss of circulation gets to be a problem, but there is plenty of time to tie into the rope if that is what you were doing. Try it, it works, glad you learned something.

P.S. If you think I am full of BS tie into the rope before you try it ;)

Danpayne

I will clarify so that you will understand the “backup knot nonsense”: If I was rapping and testing a backup (the subject of my post) I would tie into the rope. If I were still testing and used up my slack I would tie in again. I am not suggesting that I regularly back up my raps by tying in nor would I suggest that others do so. I would agree that is a bit tricky to keep your belay device locked off while re-tying into the rope. I can tie in and out of a locker with one hand using clove hitches, but I am good with my hands as my girlfriend can testify. However, if you are testing a friction knot to see if it will lock your belay device (the subject of my post) and it does hold you, you can fiddle with the ropes with both hands. In my suggestion I stated that the slack be pulled up and second tie in completed before the first one is released for obvious safety reasons.

Another option: rather than fiddling with friction knots, mule knots, or stuntman air bags there is a very quick and easy way to get both hands free while rapping. I do not know if this is a standard practice or not but I have been doing it for many years. When I am rapping and want to free both hands for whatever reason what I do is wrap the rope around my right leg several times. It is very secure and locks up my belay device. Eventually the loss of circulation gets to be a problem, but there is plenty of time to tie into the rope if that is what you were doing. Try it, it works, glad you learned something.

P.S. If you think I am full of BS tie into the rope before you try it ;)

I think you're completely full of BS. More specifically, I think you are a gumby trying to pass yourself off as a safe, experienced climber. Everybody wraps the rope around their leg to free up their hands during a rappel, and if you had the experience you make yourself out to have, you would know that.

As far as testing your rappel backup, nothing could be simpler. Let go of the backup knot while rappelling and see if it stops your descent. Duh.

-Jay

JT5.3,

In response to the following comment:

“I think you're completely full of BS. More specifically, I think you are a gumby trying to pass yourself off as a safe, experienced climber.”

You never know do you? I have only been on this site a few days and in the endless string of posts of yours I have read only one that I thought useful. Everything else has been completely unconstructive flames. Now I ask myself what motivates someone to spend so much time bashing people who are trying answer legitimate questions from beginning climbers? Obviously someone who is trying to jack themselves up by pretending to know it all. That is, I believe you are exactly what you are accusing me of being.

So dude I call, lay your cards down so to speak and list your climbing resume right here. I want to know exactly what it is that makes you think you are so much smarter than everyone else is. And I don’t mean spray about how hard you climb in the gym, I mean tell us about the skills you have actually used while climbing and how you acquired them.

Johnnord,

I understand what you are saying, but have to disagree with you. I have never spent much time on this site primarily because it has such a bad reputation for wankers, but I have spent a lot of time on other climbing sites and I have heard the same questions from beginners over and over again. And I continue to answer them over and over. I guess because when I got into climbing I didn’t know any experienced climbers and learned things from primarily books which was hard. As a beginner I would have killed for a forum like this where you could ask questions and get a variety of opinions. And if some tool box is going to say I am wrong about something to stroke his ego I am going to call him on it every time (unless I am wrong) because I feel an obligation to help people who have questions. Climbing is complicated. So if it bothers you maybe you should stay out of the beginners forum.

First off, I'm going to make the assumption that you're seeking proper instruction/guidance for your outdoor climbing, and you just want to take a poll on the idea of backing up your rappel.

Now.. I've been climbing outdoors for less than a year. Indoors, I have 3 years of experience, but 2 of those came a long time ago so don't really count.

I've taken several classes (and will take more this spring) to learn all the basics, and I've followed up with a lot of research and reading. In my outdoor classes, a rappel backup was never taught. I find that most climbers on single-pitch well-known climbs (which is where us noobs spend all our time) don't back up their rappel.

I taught myself a klemheist, prusik, and autoblock under very safe conditions (at home suspended from an A-frame ladder ). I use the klemheist as my backup knot of choice, and I employ it on every single rappel. I don't do it so much because I feel I will NEED the backup, but I do it because I want to know the knot well and trust it when I get to a point where it is necessary. Also, I feel it's just good practice to make it a habitual part of your routine.

I also like to "test" my knot when I approach the end of my rappel, stopping a few feet off the ground (when the landing is safe). That way I can feel the way it holds, practice re-starting after it catches, and be confident that I can trust the knot when I need it.

For this same reason, I always put knots in the ends of my rappel ropes, even when I've done the climb before and know the ropes will reach the ground.

* If your system somehow fails you will only fall to your tie in point. In the event that you do not fall and rap down to your tie in, tie in again and then release the original tie in. I like to tie in with clove hitches and locking biners, but any kind of loop clipped to your harness with a locker will work.*

How is the systen going to fail so that a knot will save you? The knot will work only if you lose control of the system - "system failure" means the rappell device becomes detatched from the rope. And the reason you would lose control of the system is loss of conciousness. Would you rather be hanging upside-down from a knot in that situation, or be being lowered by your partner?

Now I rig a Klemheist hitch up-line of my rappel device. There are many good reasons I’ve experienced why I prefer to rig it up-line.

It's a nice feature of your method that you would not be left hanging upside down if your rappel system failed.

Now I rig a Klemheist hitch up-line of my rappel device. There are many good reasons I’ve experienced why I prefer to rig it up-line.

-At the start of a rappel where the ropes hang free in space, I can simply raise the brake lines to decrease friction thru the rappel device, descending smartly. If I rig the friction backup below the rappel device, initial descending in this scenario is a chore.

-If I need to descend very rapidly for a limited distance, I can simply raise the brake lines and down I go. If I rig down-line I can not descend very rapidly because the brake lines will always be routed sharply over the friction edge of the rappel device

-If I need to ascend the ropes, I don’t need to change my rigging nor add anything, it’s straightforward and for short distances relatively efficient. The rappel device acts somewhat like a GriGri, the Klemheist hitch acts somewhat like a mechanical rope clamp. I push up on footholds to help raise my body with my left hand (rather than using foot loops attached to the up-line friction hitch). If I rig down-line, no way I’m ascending those ropes, not even 5-feet.

-If the ropes are slightly twined on each other, my brake hand can make large gesticulations while I continue to descend, shaking them free. If I rig down-line my brake hand can not move while I descend, it must tend the hitch. My “free” hand is somewhat awkward to use to shake out the lines.

-If the ropes are slightly stuck on rock features below me, my brake hand can shake them free, while continuing to descend. If I rig down-line my “free” hand is somewhat awkward to shake out the lines.

Al Padgett and Bruce Smith's discussion of the Prusik Safety in On Rope (National Speleological Society, 1987), "No self-belay device should interfere with rappelling technique. If it does interfere, it is counterproductive in that it exists to help control a problem, but instead tends to create one." And that's how I feel about friction hitches rigged down-line of my rappel device.


If I’ve weighted my Klemheist (rigged above my rappel deivce) it’s easy to unlock the hitch and resume descending. Lift right foot up, wrap brake ropes around it twice, raise brake hand (with ropes) above rappel device, with both hands hold on to all 4 strands of rope, stand up on right leg. Klemheist is now unweighted, left hand loosens Klemheist and slides it down, left hand grabs all 4 strands, right hand grabs just below rappel device, sit down in harness, ropes slip off foot. Continue descending.

It's your choice if you wish to use a friction hitch in addition to your rappel device. There are supporting reasons, there are detracting reasons.

So I always carry my loop of cord. It's clove hitched to a locking biner. Even when I'm taking a rest day from Grade V climbs at Red Rocks and I'm trying to onsight lines at the Trophy or the Gallery. I never blame that ounce of prevention as cause to my missing an onsight.

And virtually every rappel, I rig my Klemheist. It's a habit. Coming down a 10-meter sport route outside of Canmore, Alberta, I still rig my Klemheist. It's something I do. I find I’m more likely to do something important if I practice doing it, all the time.

i dont use a backup becasue i dont feel like taking the time to tie one. i use my bd atc and feel confident