|
ethicsmann
Jan 26, 2005, 7:59 PM
Post #1 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2005
Posts: 9
|
I myself have been climbing for about 2 1/2 yrs and have been using an atc xp. my younger brother has finally reached an age where my parents will let him com with me and my buds. he needs a belay device that is age and size appropriate. he is about 4'3'' weighing 65 lbs. or so and hes 11 yrs old. I am looking into auto locking belay devices and im wondering which one is right for him or if i should have him buy an atc or something. right now im between a petzl gri-gri and the new Trango Cinch. Im looking into these because when i fall, i dont want him flying up and dropping me.
|
|
|
|
|
tarzan420
Jan 26, 2005, 8:12 PM
Post #2 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 678
|
In reply to: what do you think about auto locking belay devices good? bad?
while I feel that most inanimate objects are predisposed towards evil by nature (especially office appliances), my general feeling is that most climbing gear is benevolent in nature (the obvious exception being killer gear slings and all manner of hooks)
but seriously...
If there's that big a difference, you probably ought to not have him belay you on leads that there's any chance of you falling. While autolocking devices are nice, they aren't foolproof. Have him get an atc, and let him stick to TR belaying. anchor him down anyways.
|
|
|
|
|
eyecannon
Jan 26, 2005, 8:12 PM
Post #3 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 4, 2004
Posts: 517
|
You probably ought to sling that kid to the nearest tree/rock/whatever anyways so he doesn't go all superman on your ass.
|
|
|
|
|
omenbringer
Jan 26, 2005, 8:25 PM
Post #4 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 248
|
In reply to: Im looking into these because when i fall, i dont want him flying up and dropping me |
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 26, 2005, 8:43 PM
Post #5 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
First of all, you should not have posted the poll, or at least not worded athe question in such simplistic terms. This is not a simple dichotomous question.
In reply to: I myself have been climbing for about 2 1/2 yrs and have been using an atc xp. my younger brother has finally reached an age where my parents will let him com with me and my buds. he needs a belay device that is age and size appropriate. he is about 4'3'' weighing 65 lbs. or so and hes 11 yrs old. I am looking into auto locking belay devices and im wondering which one is right for him or if i should have him buy an atc or something. right now im between a petzl gri-gri and the new Trango Cinch. Im looking into these because when i fall, i dont want him flying up and dropping me.
If you wouldn't trust him to belay with a non-autolocking device, then he shouldn't be belaying at all. A grigri cannot substitute for competence, maturity, and judgment. So, to my way of thinking, the foremost question is whether he should be belaying at all, and that's a call you have to make.
As to him getting pulled up, you should be able to see that that will happen regardless of belay device. Until he gets bigger, you will always have to anchor him in to belay. The n00b suggesting otherwise above is, well, a n00b.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 26, 2005, 8:44 PM
Post #6 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
First of all, you should not have posted the poll, or at least not worded as you did. This is not a simple dichotomous question.
In reply to: I myself have been climbing for about 2 1/2 yrs and have been using an atc xp. my younger brother has finally reached an age where my parents will let him com with me and my buds. he needs a belay device that is age and size appropriate. he is about 4'3'' weighing 65 lbs. or so and hes 11 yrs old. I am looking into auto locking belay devices and im wondering which one is right for him or if i should have him buy an atc or something. right now im between a petzl gri-gri and the new Trango Cinch. Im looking into these because when i fall, i dont want him flying up and dropping me.
If you wouldn't trust him to belay with a non-autolocking device, then he shouldn't be belaying at all. A grigri cannot substitute for competence, maturity, and judgment. So, to my way of thinking, the foremost question is whether he should be belaying at all, and that's a call you have to make.
As to him getting pulled up, you should be able to see that that will happen regardless of belay device. Until he gets bigger, you will always have to anchor him in to belay. The n00b suggesting otherwise above is, well, a n00b.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 26, 2005, 8:47 PM
Post #7 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Anchoring is a good idea in the right circumstances...
A 65 lb child is the right circumstance.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jan 26, 2005, 9:03 PM
Post #8 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
The cinch sucks to lead-belay with, IME. But I've only done it a couple times. Anyway, I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't think that you should have someone belay you, no matter what the device is they're using, who's not competent. If you don't believe in their ability to catch you, forget about it.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
omenbringer
Jan 26, 2005, 9:06 PM
Post #9 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 248
|
Very true a 65lbs. kid is a good circumstance for anchoring, but then again I wouldn't have a 65 lbs. kid belay me to begin with.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 26, 2005, 9:19 PM
Post #10 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: ...I wouldn't have a 65 lbs. kid belay me to begin with.
I don't see that the weight would be a problem per se, providing that the kid was anchored. To address a concern in your earlier post, the anchor can be kept loose enough to allow for some dynamics in the belay. As for the age, I don't think that is a problem per se either. But it depends on the kid. Some 11-year-olds will be able to belay and some won't. I'll admit I'm speculating on that; I've never taught an 11-year-old to belay. But I assume other 11-year-olds (eg, Chris Lindner) learned to do so.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
johnnord
Jan 27, 2005, 1:39 AM
Post #11 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2003
Posts: 162
|
I've taught a lot (nearly 1000) kids in that age/weight range to belay.
1. ALWAYS ( a rarely appropriate word in climbing advice, but appropriate here) anchor the young, lightweight belayer. With a belayer of that size/weight you probably shouldn't be climbing in situations that require the mobility or judgement of being unanchored.
2. It works best to anchor to the belay loop and belay off the waist and crotch loops (I hope that's clear). This way when the kid catches a fall the forces are directly on the anchor. The belayer is not caught in the middle and jerked around and pinched by the harness.
3. Be sure that the belayer steps forward so that there is no slack in the anchor.
4. Practice having the belayer catch falls (with a backup belayer.)
5. Untill you are confident in the ability of the kid to belay, use a backup belayer.
6. Start off teaching him/her on lots of top rope climbs.
7. Remember that belaying a lead climber is a whole new set of belaying skills. Just because a kid can belay a toprope does not mean that he/she is able to deal with a lead belay.
And in answer to your question, I only teach kids to use a ATC (or similar) belay device. Other types have their uses, but they often require an additional set of skills. Don't fool yourself that a self-locking device can be a substitute for good teaching and experience. Don't be in a hurry to train your belay slave. You've all got a lot of years of climbing ahead of you. Don't jeopardize you life but neglecting good teaching. Learning to belay may be the most important aspect of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
Jan 27, 2005, 1:59 AM
Post #12 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
John ... good advice.
|
|
|
|
|
teamkonarider
Jan 27, 2005, 2:51 AM
Post #13 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 26, 2004
Posts: 66
|
hey guys
thanks for givin adam advice for his bro.
I taught him to belay when he was round 12 or so.
His brother is very very small for his age and will be anchored and backed up at least when im around. I think ad's main concern and its mine too is him passing a belay test at a gym,not because of techinque but because he doesnt have the arm strength to stop a fall. If he does so we want to ease his pain and hook him up on a gri gri so he doesnt like break an arm or somethin. I aggree that he should defineitly learn to belay on an atc-xp or similar high friction belay device and nothing can subsitute for skill.
We wont rush to give him skill and judgement but want to give him some experince that will lead to good judgement where he will be able to belay a lead eventually.
Any one aggree with that course of action?
|
|
|
|
|
sportclmbr20
Jan 27, 2005, 3:24 AM
Post #14 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 66
|
The first time I went to the gym to belay I had to belay my boyfriend. At the gym they only have ATC's and he was tryin to teach me how to use it before he started climbing. So as he started climbing he slipped (i don't know if it was on purpose or not) but I dropped him because I didn't put the rope the correct way when he fell, and he hit the mat. I felt so bad, he didn't get hurt. But that's why I prefer an autolocking device until I feel more comfortable with an ATC.
|
|
|
|
|
slacklinejoe
Jan 27, 2005, 3:41 AM
Post #15 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 1423
|
Well, beyond what has already been mentioned:
Since the kid is going to be anchored down anyway, what about belaying off the anchor? Removes the question of weight / teathering - of course belaying off the anchor can be a whole other skill set to learn (but a good one).
|
|
|
|
|
johnnord
Jan 27, 2005, 4:25 AM
Post #16 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2003
Posts: 162
|
In reply to: hey guys thanks for givin adam advice for his bro. I taught him to belay when he was round 12 or so. His brother is very very small for his age and will be anchored and backed up at least when im around. I think ad's main concern and its mine too is him passing a belay test at a gym,not because of techinque but because he doesnt have the arm strength to stop a fall. If he does so we want to ease his pain and hook him up on a gri gri so he doesnt like break an arm or somethin. I aggree that he should defineitly learn to belay on an atc-xp or similar high friction belay device and nothing can subsitute for skill. We wont rush to give him skill and judgement but want to give him some experince that will lead to good judgement where he will be able to belay a lead eventually. Any one aggree with that course of action?
a couple of thoughts:
1) I think that it is a matter of technique. It doesn't take a lot of arm strength to catch a fall if you are belaying correctly. It's the friction created in the belay device that stops the rope from feeding through. This can be done with one hand easily with little arm strength required. If the belayer is stepped forward so that the anchor is tight, the weight of the belayer is not a significant factor either.
2) Belaying off the anchor with a gri-gri make the belay much less dynamic, particularly if the gym also uses static ropes. This greatly increases the forces on the anchors. It's done, but it is riskier. Also, the gri-gri is not a bad device for belaying a top rope in the gym while the climber is going up, but I have seen a number of near misses while lowering. That can be tricky for a beginner.
3) Until young bro proves himself, I would also make sure that there is an older, experienced climber on the ground supervising and/or backing him up.
|
|
|
|
|
clausti
Jan 27, 2005, 4:30 AM
Post #17 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2004
Posts: 5690
|
In reply to: but because he doesnt have the arm strength to stop a fall.
I'm gonna have to call you out on this one... I was a *little* bit older than this kid when I learned to belay, but I was still, in fact, a 90 lb girl. and I learned on an ATC. If you have the rope locked off properly, you are not going to drop somebody on it. It does not take *that* much arm strength, even for a weight differential of 90 to 150 lbs, which is what I pretty much dealt with. Tell him to use both hands or lock his fist behind his hip if he needs to hold it for a bit, or be considerate and clip in direct if you're going to hang.
He is gonna get jerked around a bit when you fall. If you freaking drill him on YOUR BRAKE HAND DOES NOT LEAVE THE ROPE, and he's halfway intelligent, he'll get it. your instinctive reaction is to clamp down anyways.
Whatever you do, don't anchor him by his haul loop on the back of his harness. I made that mistake one time. Most painful fall I've ever caught; it crushes your kidneys, and a couple of other incidental organs neccasary for continued life.
Oh, and I love my ATC-XP for the extra friction plates when I'm belaying somebody heavier. My .o2.
|
|
|
|
|
speedywon
Jan 28, 2005, 6:26 PM
Post #18 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 5, 2005
Posts: 182
|
My view of auto locking belay devices is similar to my view on cruise control in your car. They can be great devices ONCE you are experienced. However, when used while first learning, they can make you unattentive. My opinion, is that if he can't handle using an ATC, then he isn't ready to be climbing yet.
Maybe not what you wanted to hear. Be safe!
|
|
|
|
|
jackhammer
Jan 28, 2005, 6:34 PM
Post #19 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2004
Posts: 255
|
I don't know if you need to be SO worried. My daughter belays me, and I out weigh her by 100 pounds. It's got a lot to do with the position of the belayer and their personnel strength. What she does is anchor herself more off to the side so as to get more bite from the rope. Experiment if you want, but if you're asking about auto-belayers...it's a good investment, because everyone once in a while, you'll wind up using it for a variety of reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 28, 2005, 8:33 PM
Post #20 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: It's got a lot to do with the position of the belayer and their personnel strength.
You hardly need a brigade of belayers. One good one should suffice.
In reply to: What she does is anchor herself more off to the side so as to get more bite from the rope.
That's incorrect. The most effective position for the belayer is directly below the first piece. However, to avoid the possibility of the climber falling onto the belayer, and to avoid rockfall, it is often preferable to position the belayer slightly off to the one side.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jackhammer
Jan 28, 2005, 11:32 PM
Post #21 of 21
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2004
Posts: 255
|
I often do prefer it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
