Again, none of the known people who put up any of the routes mentioned in this thread, especially Wolfgang or Fred, were attempting to put up a route 3-4 levels of difficulty above their current abilities. None were operating out of "community service", but out of all consuming self-interest.

As far as I'm concerned anyone putting up a route for any reason other than a project they are personally obssessed with (and has at least the remote possibility of doing) is in fact a poser doing themselves and everyone else a disservice. The very concept of setting routes as a "community service" outside of a gym pretty much falls under the category of abominable and abhorrent ...

If an 11b toproper thinks he is up to the task of bolting a 5.14 route, then he is delusional.

-Jay

example: who bolted Biographie?

Jean Christophe Lafaille. In 1988. Before anyone had even climbed a 14d, much less 15a. The midpoint anchors were added by Arnaud Petit, who did the FFA of the first half at 14c in '96. The full thing didn't get 'sent till 2001.

How dare they blaspheme, eh?

All you're saying is "poser", over and over, healyje. Since you maintain that your position is not religious zealotry, how about a rational argument against putting routes up as a community service....

healy J . Thats a pretty A hole statement. At sport crags you sometimes have guys that work their butts off cleaning rts, setting rts and doing trail work. to call these guys posers just because they might set a rt they are not personaly capeable of freeing is lame.

I know I set a few rts for my GF that I had no chance of freeing in my wildest dreams. One of them is a fairly populer climb now with no complaints and the other is still a project. Does that make me a poser because I put a bunch of effort and work into a project so that my Gf and a few of my other friends had a new climb to play on?.

You don't have to be a great climber to know how to run a wire brush and and a drill. I think the totaly lame a$$ ones are the rock jocks that ask me why i haven't cleaned and bolted a line yet but they wont get off their lazy arses and help clean and set the rt.

...at a grade he was could onsight solo.

Also, keep in mind that if there's any endurance aspect whatsoever, it wouldn't be a 5.11+ for the FA, because he got to rest on the points of aid.

Another (possibly rumor/myth) that I read somewhere is that hearing someone was planning to rap bolt the line is what spurred Bachar to go lead it ground up. Seems the whole excersize was an effort to prove something on Bachar's behalf.

On toprope? People fall off (and, IIRC, injure their belayer, in this case) because they are scared, not because it is hard. If you slap a toprope on it and remove the mental control aspect, many, if not most recreational climbers would be capable of climbing it (it's only 11+).

Bold? Yes, I guess. Admirable? Not to me.

Gentlemen, gentlemen... come on now, we're all climbers here, right?

To the notion of bolting a route the bolter cannot climb:

If the bolter is squeezing in a line at an already established crag where others have done most of the previous work... the squeeze bolter is more likely to do the community a disservice. All of the 'why's' voiced in this thread would jump to the fore. Why bolt a squeeze job the bolter has no hope of climbing?

Now if the bolter is doing this at a crag where the bolter herself is the primary mover of route development? STFU, its none of your business.

If the bolter is mainly a noob with just a few or handful of FA sends under her belt and can't even redpoint most moderate sport routes, what makes her think she can open a route so far above her standard?

DMT

No big deal?? In a gym it's no big deal. On a rock it's a very big deal.
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They aren't gyms, or canvases, they're the real world - let's attempt to retain a shred of collective self-respect and spine by not reducing them all to outdoor clip joints for the suburban hordes.
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The very concept of setting routes as a "community service" outside of a gym pretty much falls under the category of abominable and abhorrent - again, the domain of total posers and egomaniacs operating at the expense of the rock.
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Again, this notion of "community service" of putting up routes you aren't personally trying to FA is, as far as I'm concerned, a similar affliction to people simply wanting their gym clipping experience outdoors - it's perversion that has unfortunately escaped the [gym] box.

come on now, we're all climbers here, right?

By the way, he is super spcyched to give the line another go. I am sure this will push him to excell.

At the risk of taking your comments out of context, healyje (and I apologize if I am) but are you "projecting?"

Again, conceptually gyms started out as simply a way to bring the climbing experience into urban surrounds so we could climb when we couldn't get out. What has happened over time, however, was something relatively unintended - masses of climbers whose first experiences of climbing is indoors and who now simply want to have that absolutely safe [clipping] experience outdoors. And their numbers have proliferated as has relentless unnecessary [grid] bolting.

Yes, Bachar did onsight solo 5.11s. But a several pitch 5.11 face climb without knowing the difficulties? No, he would NOT onsight solo that.

To some extent, I agree with Dingus.

However, it is ridiculous to compare a 11b climber bolting a 14 to JC Lafaille bolting Realization. Every example in this thread (as has been noted) has been of someone who bolted a line that was 2-3 letter grades over their head - not 10-12!!!!!!!

This afternoon, two other climbers climbed the line and enjoyed it as well. Not one complained about bad bolt placements, and both thanked my partner for his time and energy.

Yes, Bachar did onsight solo 5.11s. But a several pitch 5.11 face climb without knowing the difficulties? No, he would NOT onsight solo that.

After placing each bolt, Bachar lowered to the start of the pitch, pulled the rope, and free climbed past the bolt to the next "stance." So yes, there was the 11+ endurance aspect for the FA.

Yes, I've also read that Bachar went and did it because the line was about to be rap-bolted. I'm not sure why this should be criticized. Instead of having just a nice 5.11 sport face climb, we have a historic mind control testpiece that can challenge generations of climbers...

But I guess it just comes down to whether or not you admire boldness...

And I do agree that a dogmatic view of ground-up is unrealistic and outdated... Sport climbing provides a high level of mental challenge as well. Memorizing every move and refusing to lose faith when you fall at the same place time and time again is not easy...

If we all had to climb like Henry Barber a lot of us would be dead.

Too bad. I for one am glad they are here. I never really liked you 5.11c R leader dudes dictating to everyone else how to climb anyway.

If we all had to climb like Henry Barber a lot of us would be dead.

Anyway, the sky is not falling down.

DMT

Healyj, you sound like a selfish little prick if you can't understand the concept of putting up a rt for you girlfriend as a gift :roll: I do put the rts up on lead so i get pleanty of thrills and the Fa even if it is not the FFA. I do not put up rts for guys that are too lazy to help themselfs. Jorge put up tons of rts for his wife and then gave a few of them to Lyn Hill and J long. talk about community service, the guy created a massive playground for all of us. No I don't think that a top ropeing wanker should be bolting 14's but a competent climber with some vision can certainly put up a good rt that is above their free climbing ability.

I'm not dictating anything to anyone, just laying out my opinions and feelings on the matter.