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rockfax
Feb 9, 2005, 4:12 PM
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In the late 90's Climbing mag had a front cover of Rikki Ishoy. It was a very sexy image, she was wearing a bikini top and shorts, it was a tight close-up shot (basically of her breasts), there was very little rock in view, she was 2 inches off the ground, it wasn't a ground-breaking ascent and the pic had no realtion to any of the mags features or news items.
It was quite clearly aimed at persuading the testosterone climber (the majority in the climbing world) to purchase the magazine. Nothing new in that, especially in the mainstream media.
Since then (and a little before) there has a been a stream of sexy images of women climbers in the climbing magazines, both on covers and in the photo galleries.
Climbing companies like Red Chilli and more recently Blurr feature women in various states of undress and in several different contexts. You might have seen some of them.
What do women think of these images? I'm not talking about a pic of Beth Rodden or Steph Davis doing a free ascent of somebig wall, which is sexy enough in itself on a number of levels, but the pics of attractive women, sometimes climbers, sometimes models, that are used in adverts often portraying roles that could be interpreted as being subserviant to their male masters!
Are they appropriate, are women being used, do you care, do you like them, do they (OMG) empower women or just use women as marketing objects? Perhaps a combination....of all these.
Best Regards,
Mick
(Ryan)
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kimmyt
Feb 9, 2005, 4:37 PM
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Show me an example of one of these advertisements and I'll comment....I don't read climbing magazines, and when I do I rarely even glance at the ads, so I can't think of any ads like you've described off the top of my head.
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tavs
Feb 9, 2005, 5:04 PM
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The pics in the mags (not ads)--I can't say that I've noticed as many of these (ones where the rock/climbing itself is so marginalized) recently. I do have a funny, slightly off topic story about one though. There was a cover of R&I a while back with a female climber climbing at the Big Bend boulders near Moab, tiny sports bra and short-shorts, climbing at what I know is fairly well below her limit (I know the chica, she climbs way harder than me, I flashed the problem). The climbing position was her way stretched out, legs spread (almost like a stem position). Anyway, some friends and I recreated the shot recently--my friend Chris (male) wore my sports bra and shorts and we took some posed shots. Haven't done it yet, but we've though about sending them in to R&I. When these kinds of photos do appear, well, I can't say that I'm too bothered by them--there are often similar-style male pics as well, you know, the guy with his shirt off and muscles bulging as he mimes the sequence to a problem or even just stands smiling for the camera. I won't say they don't bother me at all, but it's not a huge deal.
Now as for the ads, like the Red Chili and Blurr ones. These do bother me and I think your post has led me to figure out exactly why. We see these kinds of ads all the time, but it seems that usually--with cars, beer, etc--there's a clear tactic: advertisers are aiming for their target demographic, which they see as overwhelmingly male and thus they (try to) appeal to that target group. What bothers me most, I suppose, with the climbing ads is the implication that they see their target audience as MEN. In light of the other thread about the increase in women climbers (and if we use a broad definition of "climber" here, given that many gym-rats read the mags and buy the shoes and clothes, the numbers of women seem even higher), that idea--that these companies see men as their target audience--is what ticks me off...more so than just the ads themselves, which, to be frank, I think I'm mostly numb to at this point.
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maculated
Feb 9, 2005, 5:46 PM
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I helped teach a course that involved women in advertising last year. Go to the grocery store and check out the rack. Cosmo, Maxim, Shape, Stuff - what's the difference? HEck if I can tell. All of them have impossibly beautiful women on the cover.
Men like looking at beautiful women. So do women.
No one said anything about empowerment. In fact, if you splash a bunch of women up inordinately, something seems wrong about that to me. Back a few years when my partner bought your Bishop bouldering guide, I looked at the cover and went, "Weird! All the photos are of women!" I didn't feel particularly empowered by that, considering the main target audience is men. It's all in the target you use to attract buyers. Not saying you're being chauvinistic, but that's what I thought when I saw it.
Here's a secret: Women like to compare themselves. It explains the sometimes competitive nature of woman-woman relationships. Women are our competitors. Women are also our inspiration.
Men like women cuz, well . . . those are some mighty sexy women. It works out.
So . . . those hotty ads are doing the same thing - it's not rocket science. The only reason we notice the change is because we're used to the male-dominated advertising that is not sexual. Times are a changing - sex sells. Even when it's just a silly rubber shoe.
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iamthewallress
Feb 9, 2005, 6:34 PM
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I don't mind to see the occasional picture of a climber that is being published solely because the subject is a hottie...so long as there are some boys in the mix and pictures primarily highlighting women's boobs don't get more press than pictures primarily highlighting women's accomplishments.
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clausti
Feb 9, 2005, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: The . What bothers me most, I suppose, with the climbing ads is the implication that they see their target audience as MEN.
I'll totally agree to that. Furthermore, I will add this: I have never seen, that I knew of or recognized, a Red Chilli product [they sell shoes?] but I know the company exsists, because I hate their stupid adds.
like the one of the girl in the black dress with a slit up to her hip with her foot on the wall opposite her in a hallway. not wearing climbing shoes, i might add.
wft? is she seducing him becuase he climbs? because she wants his stuff? because his stuff makes him climb so hard that hes sexy?
I think the adds might appeal to the men; I coudlnt honestly say, though I'll admit that as a possibility. But the fact that they only try to appeal to men does offend me. Why would I buy their product when I'm not even considered by them as worth mention as a climber? uhh no. I wouldn't.
the climbing pics, of actual climbers climbing, other other hand, NOT models. hell yeah, those are sexy. I don't really care that much.... I think they guys are sexy too. and they should keep putting shots of *both* kinds in. of *climbers*.
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tavs
Feb 9, 2005, 11:36 PM
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[quote="maculated"]
Here's a secret: Women like to compare themselves. It explains the sometimes competitive nature of woman-woman relationships. Women are our competitors. Women are also our inspiration.
In reply to: In general, I agree. And I'm hyper-competitive--usually within myself (I always want to do better than last time) but definitely, (mostly secret) competition with other women happens. So when you see the Cosmo cover, you might think "Hmmm, wonder if there's anything in here that can get me to look like her." But when I'm looking at a climbing mag, I'm comparing myself to the women climbing. Which is why those Red Chili ads seem to have absolutely nothing to do with me--whereas in other situations, the sexy pics of women both inspire me and make me want to be better than the subject of the photo, the women in those ads are just so outside the box of competition as to be irrelevant. And if I do think anything at all, it's "gee, does that woman even climb?" They are just so clearly targeted to men. Whether that targeting is justified or makes good marketing sense, of course, brings us back to the question of just how many women are out there climbing, which I think we've shown to be highly variable by location and completely undetermined. [BTW, off-topic--I've actually heard really great things about Red Chili shoes in general and I've got a pair of uber-comfy, built for rock routes in the Tetons shoes of theirs that I love.]
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kellie
Feb 10, 2005, 12:51 AM
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I love photos. I love that photo of John Varco doing the double-fist-head stack on the wide crack in Zion where he looks like he’s about to have an aneurysm, I love the photo of Ari Menitove doing some bizarre feet-over-head Levittation-looking thingey on Cat Wall in Indian Creek, I love the photo of the Huber boys in their long-haired leather-pantsed glory in front of El Cap, because they’re hot and because it totally cracks me up.
I love the one of Heidi Wirtz and Vera Shulte-whatever-her-last-name-is in El Cap meadow after setting their new speed records, shirtless in front of El Cap in a pose reminiscent of the Hubers (only with arms crossed over their chests). I love the photo of Steph Davis in her green helmet with the big 70s daisies all over it leading 5.11 on a first ascent in Pakistan. I loved the photos of Rachel Babkirk in R&I (or was it Climbing?) a few years back leading 5.12 trad at NRG that caused all those guys to write letters in saying how they wanted to marry her.
The thing about “sexy” photos is that all too often it seems the choice is made to sacrifice being a great photo for being a sexy photo. Several of us (male and female) were looking at this year’s Women of Climbing calendar last week, and we agreed they’re just extremely unremarkable photos, except for the fact that there are women in tiny little tops in them. They were just kind of boring.
So yeah, I’m all in favor of sexy photos (of both genders), but they also need to be *good* photos. There needs to be something more interesting about them than cleavage or nice abs.
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climberterp
Feb 10, 2005, 1:31 AM
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Sexy pictures of actual climbing are great, whether they be of male or female climbers. Equal opportunity ogling is important to me, and there definitely aren't enough shirtless men in my life :lol:
However, sexy pics of faux climbing, or ads that use sexed up images of women that have nothing to do w/climbing bother me. I'm all for celebrating the female form--hell, the human form in general--but I'd rather see pics that capture bodies being used than bodies just standing around looking alluring. And I wouldn't buy from a company that tried to sell with those tactics.
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timstich
Feb 10, 2005, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: ...Furthermore, I will add this: I have never seen, that I knew of or recognized, a Red Chilli product [they sell shoes?] but I know the company exsists, because I hate their stupid adds.
Oh man, are those stupid ads! They look like Calvin Cline spots. Frankly, if you are going to show women climbing in ads, keep the dirt and sweat. One of my favorite pictures of a female friend of mine that I took is her on the grass in a dirty sports bra eating a can of cold spaghetti-ohs in the sun. This is the same girl I observed wiping a huge booger on her shirt in front of me in the middle of a conversation.
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shorty
Feb 10, 2005, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: ...there has a been a stream of sexy images of women climbers in the climbing magazines, both on covers and in the photo galleries.
Gol' durnit, some of our forefathers were the Puritan trash sixth in line from daddy's inheritance that couldn't make it in European society. So they packed their meager belongings and sailed to the New World to escape these sinful temptations of the body.
And here were are in America -- where Rambo-style movies earn that well-deserved PG rating for a nice family outing. And a little bare skin here and there draws an R rating. If only the burka would come back into fashion, America would surely gain the respect of all the durned foreign countries. Well, that and a few well-placed Tomahawk missiles, backed up by some M1 Abrams tanks and Cobra choppers.
OK, so (almost) enough of the sarcasm.
What I find so interesting in North American versus European attitudes is the way our cultures view sex versus violence. By European standards, the pictures Mick discusses are very, very tame. But they're almost scandalous here in the States. I really wonder which continent has the more healthy approach.
After a decade of work in television, I guess I just don't get very worked up any more by who (male or female) bares what to promote a product. IMO, advertising follows -- rather than leads -- societal trends. As stated in earlier posts, there are far more revealing shots in non-climbing publications.
So, as a dude, what point am I trying to make in the women's forum? Not much of one, really. I'm just hoping that next year's Super Bowl ads are a generally more innovative. Oh yeah, and I liked Rikki Ishoy's cover shot. But I also wasn't offended by Christian Griffith's banana-hammock climbing shot in another climbing magazine. Last I checked, women have eyes, too.
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jt512
Feb 10, 2005, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...Furthermore, I will add this: I have never seen, that I knew of or recognized, a Red Chilli product [they sell shoes?] but I know the company exsists, because I hate their stupid adds. Oh man, are those stupid ads! They look like Calvin Cline spots. Frankly, if you are going to show women climbing in ads, keep the dirt and sweat. One of my favorite pictures of a female friend of mine that I took is her on the grass in a dirty sports bra eating a can of cold spaghetti-ohs in the sun. This is the same girl I observed wiping a huge booger on her shirt in front of me in the middle of a conversation.
Well, it's clear why Tim is not the photo editor of a climbing magazine.
-Jay
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timstich
Feb 10, 2005, 3:08 AM
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In reply to: Well, it's clear why Tim is not the photo editor of a climbing magazine. -Jay
The boogers were well mixed in with the mud smudges. Ha ha ha! Actually, I think she wiped her nose on the shirt, hence its removal.
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clausti
Feb 10, 2005, 3:14 AM
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yeah.
i refuse to put a lot of effort into interpreting ads. if its not immediately obvios to me, too bad. lol.
the picture of those two chicks infront of whatever big wall they'd just gotton the speed record to with their arms crossed in front of their chests... i think i remember that one.
IT FREAKING ROCKED.
sorry. I appreciate the female form's aesthetic value. I also appreicate being shown things I can aspire to [hardass female climbers], and I benefit from getting my "its too reachy!" complaint shot out of the sky.
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wonderwoman
Feb 10, 2005, 5:41 PM
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Those red chili adds are pretty stupid. but I do remember there was one add that had a woman doing a dyno for a 'hot' man on one side and vice-versa on the other. I guess it's equal opportunity.
And what about all the bruises on these climbers? Dp they airbrush them out? Maybe it's because of my pasty-white complexion, but I have bruises and scrapes all over the place. That ain't so sexy!
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fern
Feb 10, 2005, 6:28 PM
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I'm guessing that the Blurr ad that mick refers to is the recent one with Lisa Dumper dressed up in motorcycle leathers with another woman reaching around her from behind and sticking a hand down her pants. Nothing to do with climbing, nor 'appreciation of the aethetics of a fit body' or anything like that - just a provocative image. But then - blurr gear doesn't have much to do with climbing either, it's just clothing and backpacks. The ad made me laugh a little, but it stuck in my mind and I know what they are selling - so I guess it was a success.
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naw
Feb 11, 2005, 1:48 PM
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Those red chili ads seem to me like another example of an advertising trend marketed towards the ultra-cool "urban" climbers. You know, the metrosexual climbers...the guys who want to style their hair, drive cool, fast, italian sports cars and shred 5.14 before heading out to the club to break it down (I guess the electric slide or something...I don't dance). Anyway, I think they're moronic and if that anorexic goth-chick took my shoes I'd call the police.
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acacongua
Feb 14, 2005, 6:39 PM
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I rarely have time to read this mags (and I hope this doesn't disqualify my comments because I do climb a lot) so I wonder if the mags advertise eye candy for the ladies too? What I am saying, don't just pay attention to the sexual display of women, but of men as well.
What's reality and what's sad reality is that sex sells in America and many other parts of the world. Hell, I saw a commercial where sexual images were used to sell spark plugs! Marketers and advertisers know that appealing to prurient interest of people will roll in the money and in the end, it's money that matters more than integrity or dignity.
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bustloose
Feb 14, 2005, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Those red chili ads seem to me like another example of an advertising trend marketed towards the ultra-cool "urban" climbers. You know, the metrosexual climbers...the guys who want to style their hair, drive cool, fast, italian sports cars and shred 5.14 before heading out to the club to break it down (I guess the electric slide or something...I don't dance). Anyway, I think they're moronic and if that anorexic goth-chick took my shoes I'd call the police.
That's hilarious. Go rent 'The Real Thing', shot in '96, it has ALL the peices of the puzzle that you have just mentioned, funny that you think this is s new 'trend'
as for the topic at hand. I have issues with gratuitous 'hot women' in climbing photos. a few years ago the 'women of climbing' calendar had a picture of a model, in a gym. very sad. but i'm sure they started to sell more copies.
the red chili ads i have no problem with, they're a bit odd, but i don't find them offensive.
the Blurr ads are just plain odd. best guess is that they are simply showcasing their team members, in strangely glamourous (?) scenarios...
buuuut, for every picture of a woman in a sports bra, there are 100 pics of boys with no shirts, and not all of them are great photos, or ground breaking problems either...
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bad_lil_kitty
Feb 18, 2005, 9:17 PM
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I got a good laugh at some of these ads, actually. They are so ridiculously silly, it's hard to take them at any value other then the blantant sex sells. I think that the whole mantra of buyer beware should be applied here. Yes, there are folks who will are disillusioned and actually think women climbing in slinky dresses, panty hose and all!
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rockfax
Feb 19, 2005, 3:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Those red chili ads seem to me like another example of an advertising trend marketed towards the ultra-cool "urban" climbers. You know, the metrosexual climbers...the guys who want to style their hair, drive cool, fast, italian sports cars and shred 5.14 before heading out to the club to break it down (I guess the electric slide or something...I don't dance). Anyway, I think they're moronic and if that anorexic goth-chick took my shoes I'd call the police. That's hilarious. Go rent 'The Real Thing', shot in '96, it has ALL the peices of the puzzle that you have just mentioned, funny that you think this is s new 'trend'
You can even go back further to the late 1970's early 1980's in the UK and adverts in Crags magazine that featured actually real life women's nipples.
A little later, the French (of course the French) used to feature the "Vertical Girl" in each issue of Vertical mags.
So not really new, but definately more widespread these days.
Mick
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shorty
Feb 22, 2005, 2:12 AM
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In reply to: Yes, there are folks who will are disillusioned and actually think women climbing in slinky dresses, panty hose and all!
bustier -- Offers strategic skin protection in tight chimneys. Also, based upon the wearer's decolletage, it gives an addition location to store extra RPs, stoppers, or hexes (physique dependent).
butt floss undies -- Does not inhibit movement, cool in hot weather, adds a location to clip smaller gear.
panty hose -- Warms the legs without bulk, offers a smoother line for tight chimneys (It's a little known fact that VPLs do catch in chimneys.), provides some skin protection for rough rock.
CFM pumps -- Great edging capabilities for the toes, good arch support, additional height while standing on the heel can be helpful for long moves, the stiletto heel can be jammed in cracks too small for toes. And those funky ankle straps are good for holding dollar bill tips, but that's a different story.
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climberterp
Feb 22, 2005, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Show me an example of one of these advertisements and I'll comment....I don't read climbing magazines, and when I do I rarely even glance at the ads, so I can't think of any ads like you've described off the top of my head. Here's the pic rockfax was referring to: http://www.coreyrich.com/...ite/images/pw_08.jpg GO
That doesn't really seem like the type of pic that's being discussed here. I mean, this woman is actually climbing, she's not just standing around looking/acting provocatively sexy (i.e. hands down the pants on a motorcycle). She's not wearing a lot but that's no biggie.
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