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hanginaround
Feb 9, 2005, 3:52 PM
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Okay, I've got a total n00b question. It's probably been asked a thousand times before, but it did a search and I couldn't find the answer. After rain how long do you wait to climb on sandstone? Or is this practice just a climbing another myth?
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ikefromla
Feb 9, 2005, 3:59 PM
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i suppose it depends on the density of the sandstone and the features, but at Red Rocks, NV, the rule is NEVER climb on it unless it has had 24 hours of direct sun. the unspoken rule is to give it 48 though. Perhaps you should mention the area that you are referring to, in case different times apply to different locations (ie the new vs red rocks vs the red vs hp40.. you know)
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rockrat511
Feb 9, 2005, 4:01 PM
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Not a myth.
Anywhere from a day to about 3-4 depending on if it was a light sprinkle or a full on monsoon.
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j_ung
Feb 9, 2005, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: i suppose it depends on the density of the sandstone and the features, but at Red Rocks, NV, the rule is NEVER climb on it unless it has had 24 hours of direct sun. the unspoken rule is to give it 48 though. Perhaps you should mention the area that you are referring to, in case different times apply to different locations (ie the new vs red rocks vs the red vs hp40.. you know)
That's the correct answer; it depends on the sandstone. At the New, you can climb in the rain, if you really want. At Moab, you'd be crazy-ish.
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salathiel
Feb 9, 2005, 4:07 PM
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The short answer is two days. However, if you live on the east coast and climb on what is commonly known as Tuscarora sandstone, the adage is: "If the road is dry, the rock is dry." So, if you are a west coast climber, wait two days, anywhere else, ask a local. This should keep you safe.
If you get any flames from your question, just remember what my momma used to tell me:
"F%@k them, they don't pay your bills."
Blur
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areuinclimber
Feb 9, 2005, 4:09 PM
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give is 2 days (to be safe) and then test the rock when there. just see if it looks/feels wet and soggy.
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ikefromla
Feb 9, 2005, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: give is 2 days (to be safe) and then test the rock when there. just see if it looks/feels wet and soggy. |
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chew_griffey
Feb 9, 2005, 4:18 PM
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I've found it depends on what type of sandstone it is. For example, at the New, the rock is generally not very porous at all. You can climb on it when it is wet with minimal risk of breaking a hold. On the other hand, at the Red, the rock is very porous - like a sponge. Holds that are normally solid while dry will break under very little pressure while wet. I try to stay off anything until there is no sign of moisture on a lot of the routes in and around the Red.
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hanginaround
Feb 9, 2005, 4:36 PM
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Let me give you guys a few specifics; the area is Stoney Point , Rain is predicted for Friday, and I plan on being there on Saturday. I guess it’s a no brainer after reading the site description.
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jamaica
Feb 9, 2005, 5:35 PM
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I'd at least go to check it out, you might not know if it's dry or wet, manytimes even after a moonsoon you can find a dry overhanging climb, even if the place is wet you can at least take a hike and possibly discover new climbs you'd not seen before
Jamaica 8^)
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heximp
Mar 12, 2006, 8:05 PM
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Hey,
Don't climb at Stoney after it rains. Not even in the overhangs. The local climbers try to discourage this for various reasons. One of the biggest reasons is that the rock acts like a sponge. If one side is wet; the whole integrity o the rock is gone. Give it 2-3 days before climbing. If this information is unclear, just ask anyone hanging around Tuesday and Thurseday afternoons: "that is the regular crowd that has been there for at least thirty years." Talk to one of the old guys. They might explain it better...
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ter_bee
Mar 13, 2006, 8:05 PM
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dammit! I'VE WAITED ALL WINTER!! DON'T DO THIS TO ME!!
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heximp
Mar 13, 2006, 8:28 PM
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"Laughing..."
I know the feeling... I am going crazy with the need to get outside and climb something... I am looking at the rain gutter at work and wondering if the principle will mind if one of his teacher's scale the building...
Hmmm.... Bad for work security? "Well, I do have to be caught first."
Note about sandstone;
Just remember, once a hold breaks off a classic, there is no way of getting it back... Especially at Stoney where everyone hates glue," and even if we did glue it... It still won't be the same..."
---------------------------------
John: Why the crazy lifestyle?
Stoney Point Climber: Well, we like hitting bottom for the chance to climb up...
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boardline22
Mar 13, 2006, 9:13 PM
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so what happens to sandstone when it rains? I ask because I have never climbed on sandstone before
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epoch
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Mar 13, 2006, 10:41 PM
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In regards to the OP's question... Yes you can climb on sand stone immediately after it rains. It won't be very pleasant. The question of WOULD you climb?? I would say that you would have to consider the density of the rock and the amount of rain recieved. Factor in the way that it faces, towards the sun or away? I chanced to climb chossy sandstone not more than 3 hours after a torrential downpour. I was fine, though I didn't dare to lead the area, on bolts or gear, we toproped.
It is a judgement call. On average I would say wait two to three days...
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heximp
Mar 13, 2006, 11:07 PM
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This is a textbook answer...
Sandstone rock is sedimentary rock made from small grains of minerals of quartz and feldspar. The small grains are literally sand particles compressed together over millions of years beneath an ocean, river or lake. The density of this rock depends upon the amount of pressure it has experienced during formation...
Some sandstone is too fragile for climbing; breaking apart under weight and immediately turning into the original form of sand. Other types of sandstone is solid enough for climbing, but still has limited integrity. "All types of sandstone has a chance of crumpling around a piece of protection with the force of a fall.'
Sandstone is not a solid rock... It is porous... Water can get into the pores of the rock and weaken it even further... (The rock can actually swell up like a sponge and become "mushy.") The chances of the rock breaking increases... This breakage could range from the whole face of the rock shearing off or a small hold deteriorating beneath pressure... In the case of Stoney Point, many classic routes have disappeared from the use of climbers after rainfall. This is easily avoidable. When sandstone dries, it becomes hard "just like a dry sponge." The strength of the rock increases with the amount of dryness.
Climbing sandstone is always better during a dry spell...
I hope this answers the question...
P.S.
Also, even if you do manage to climb sandstone without incident after it rains... That does not mean you didn't cause any damage... Climbing after rain increases the deterioration of the route at a much higher rate then during a dry season... Your weight flexes the holds and loosens the sand particles. In a sense, you are preparing the rock to break...
I would rather if everyone would at least wait two days before climbing...
:)
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boardline22
Mar 14, 2006, 2:36 AM
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thanks, and sorry for hijacking the thread
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wes_allen
Mar 14, 2006, 3:08 AM
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In the southeast, if you waited 2 days after every rain to climb, well, you wouldn't be climbing much! The red is a great area to climb in while it is raining, as there are plenty of routes that stay dry to mostly dry. I have never broken a hold during / right after a rain, but have broken plenty with nice dry conditions. Can't see that it would be much fun to boulder while raining, but hanging out and climbing on the steeper walls of the red isn't a bad time at all, even when it is pouring out.
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sixleggedinsect
Mar 14, 2006, 4:00 AM
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In reply to: at Red Rocks, NV, the rule is NEVER climb on it unless it has had 24 hours of direct sun. the unspoken rule is to give it 48 though.
ha! you can wish!
this place is awash (pun intended) with newbies and highly motivated folks who flew in for the weekend/break. maybe thats the local's rule, but there are plenty of people climbing as soon as the rock looks dry.
im not saying its safe. im not saying i support it. its not and i dont. but if i had a nickel for everytime i heard "hasnt rained since morning. road is dry. lets go to the sport crags and get a couple pitches in.."...
the sport cliffs arent the only post-rain spots, but they strike me as some of the most selfish places to climb after a rain.
to make things worse- half the time it rains more/only in the canyons, so folks have a perception that the rock didn't get that wet.
ah well.
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weschrist
Mar 14, 2006, 4:17 AM
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It all depends on the rock.
Most of the sandstone out west (especially in the Colorado Plateau) was buried by overlaying sediment to relatively shallow depths, and has experienced relatively low pressures during diagenesis. The sand grains are very weakly cemented with minor amounts of calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is one of the few substances that is retrograde soluble... ie, is more soluble in COLD water than hot water. Cold meteoric water dissolves the calcium carbonate cement which causes grains to slide and holds to break. Red Rocks is similar, but marginally better due to the sandstone being wedged under a huge thrust fault (more diagenetic pressure) and the added benefit of ample calcium carbonate precipitation into the pore spaces from the limestone above. Still, the rock is fragile and should be VERY dry before you climb on it... not just dry to the touch.
I don't know the east coast geology that well, but I do know most of the sandstone has been buried in the complex folding and compression associated with the mid-Atlantic rift (as was Fontainbleau). I have not seen any geothermometer or geobarometer data, but I suspect the diagenetic pressures and temperatures were plenty high enough to cause grain boundaries to fuse. As such, the grains would essentially be held together with fine grained siliceous material... which does not dissolve in atmospheric temperatures regardless of how much water you have… which explains why you can climb in the east when the rock is wet.
A couple things that could be cleared up in this thread:
1) density (weight per volume) has nothing to do with it.
2) porosity has little to do with it. you can have a solid sandstone cemented with siliceous material that is actually more porous than a weak sandstone cemented with calcium carbonate... and vice versa.
3) There was something else but I forgot and I don't really care at this point.
Your best bet is to follow the local beta. Unlike nutritional science, actual experience should outweigh any poorly supported theories.
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weschrist
Mar 14, 2006, 4:23 AM
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It all depends on the rock.
Most of the sandstone out west (especially in the Colorado Plateau) was buried by overlaying sediment to relatively shallow depths, and has experienced relatively low pressures during diagenesis. The sand grains are very weakly cemented with minor amounts of calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is one of the few substances that is retrograde soluble... ie, is more soluble in COLD water than hot water. Cold meteoric water dissolves the calcium carbonate cement which causes grains to slide and holds to break. Red Rocks is similar, but marginally better due to the sandstone being wedged under a huge thrust fault (more diagenetic pressure) and the added benefit of ample calcium carbonate precipitation into the pore spaces from the limestone above. Still, the rock is fragile and should be VERY dry before you climb on it... not just dry to the touch.
I don't know the east coast geology that well, but I do know most of the sandstone has been buried in the complex folding and compression associated with the mid-Atlantic rift (as was Fontainbleau). I have not seen any geothermometer or geobarometer data, but I suspect the diagenetic pressures and temperatures were plenty high enough to cause grain boundaries to fuse. As such, the grains would essentially be held together with fine grained siliceous material... which does not dissolve in atmospheric temperatures regardless of how much water you have… which explains why you can climb in the east when the rock is wet.
A couple things that could be cleared up in this thread:
1) density (weight per volume) has nothing to do with it.
2) porosity has little to do with it. you can have a solid sandstone cemented with siliceous material that is actually more porous than a weak sandstone cemented with calcium carbonate... and vice versa.
3) There was something else but I forgot and I don't really care at this point.
Your best bet is to follow the local beta. Unlike nutritional science, actual experience should outweigh any poorly supported theories.
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colotopian
Mar 14, 2006, 4:49 AM
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Dammit you beat me too it weschrist!
I was going to write this…
uhh... what textbook are you referring to? As far as I have read the primary issue lies in the cement holding the grains of the sandstone together and –its- degree of solubility in water.
Geologic Spray on Sandstone and Water
The cement that holds sand and silt stones together can be many things, from calcium carbonate (CaCO3), to silica it self (SiO2) to Iron Oxide (FeO) to others. In the case of a SS cemented with silica, its solubility is very low, something like that of glass (well, sand…glass… SiO2… it’s the same stuff). Here the rock being slippery may be the biggest concern when climbing on it. When a SS is held together with CaCO3 (limestone essentially) or Iron Oxide (rust) or any other more-readily water-soluble cement the integrity of the rock and its ability to keep its integrity under stress would take priority when climbing on it; to not crack holds off and fall on ones ass.
As for exposed rock acting like a sponge... uh, no. Rock is rock. It may have fossils of sponges in it, but you usually see those in Limestones. (A natural sponge is the remains of a benthic sea creature with a SiO2 skeleton, coincidentally.) If rock were to shrink and swell as a sponge does with the addition or removal of water… uhm... I don’t know where to go with this... The rock would basically be torn apart with alternating wet and dry seasons, just becoming sand (mind you, this is in the absence of confining pressures. Under thousands of feet of rock it’s a different ballgame. Heat is involved down there, lots of it, pressure too. Meta-sediments and metamorphics come into play down there). Sandstone is brittle at the geologically superficial scale climbers interact with it. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen but where it does you don’t really climb.
Sandstone is characteristically porous, you’re right here, and it can hold fluid (our entire lively hood form oil to drinkable water depends on this). Permeability is something to take into account too. If a fluid can flow from vacant place to vacant place w/in the rock then you’ve got a filter not swiss cheese! With increased permeability and porosity the speed at which a rock dissolves (and dries) increases or can increase with proper quantities of solvent/fluid.
Clay on the other-hand (well some clays) do shrink and swell with varying amounts of water, but this is due to water molecules slipping into shale, mudstone, muddy silts, slates, and other chossy clay based shit at the molecular level…I think.
As for density variation with age… you might be hard pressed to make an argument there. Origins of sedimentary rock density you may find are more in the depositional environment of the sediment and the process of lithification (diagenisis) that sediment went through to become the rock we see now, not in its age. A correlation could exist… but may not be perceptible to us naked monkeys while getting sunburned on the dorsal or getting soaked under crash pads and bivys.
Aside from a slight bit of misinformation your conclusion of “Climbing sandstone is always better during a dry spell... “ is correct. :D
…How’s that for spray?
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vincentprice
Mar 14, 2006, 5:10 AM
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What about snow? I'm heading to Joes Valley on Wednesday and there's a 20% chance of snow on tuesday. If it's a short thing like we get here in Utah during March, I don't think the snow would collect on the problems themselves. I guess the topouts could be kind of iffy since that's where it would collect.
But don't mention gyms. I'm so sick of gym climbing I could die. It's outside or nothing this week.
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weschrist
Mar 14, 2006, 6:03 AM
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I like geology
In reply to: Clay on the other-hand (well some clays) do shrink and swell with varying amounts of water, but this is due to water molecules slipping into shale, mudstone, muddy silts, slates, and other chossy clay based s--- at the molecular level…I think.
ah shizzle... clay mineralogy! very interesting and complex, I would take that class again just for fun. In this case the amount of weathering (and hence usually age of the sediment) is very important. 2:1 clays expand more... cation exchange ratios... blah blah blah... fascinating I tell you.
And vincentprice: Joe's sucks... spend the extra 45 min and drive to Ibex. Ibex is way better quality, it is quartzite so the wet/dry issue isn't a big deal, is less porous (and less permeable) so it dries out much faster, and experiences the storms earlier (hence clears up/dries out sooner). I have climbed in both places in the snow... Joe's sucks.
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heximp
Mar 16, 2006, 2:14 AM
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I only know what I have been taught and lucky enough to retain...
Thanks for the correction. It is always good to learn something right.
This discussion makes me want go back to school and get "another" degree.
:)
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