Dev sets his passive pieces with a series of rough jerks. I just about always need a nut tool.

trad draw - tripled 2 ft runner. Good for trad but bulky.
short draw - small (6, 8 or 12" open loop sling). Good for trad or sport.
sport draw - fairly stiff (many bartacks) 4 or 6" dogbone. Sport only.

At least that's how I see it.

Good grief this thread is a disaster in the making.

So you really think setting a nut hard will remove the need for a longer sling? I guess you never heard of the zipper effect.


Which do you think has more nut removing power, a falling climber, or a climber with a nut tool?

Good grief this thread is a disaster in the making.

So you really think setting a nut hard will remove the need for a longer sling? I guess you never heard of the zipper effect.


Which do you think has more nut removing power, a falling climber, or a climber with a nut tool?

Even if the nut isn't "set" then a sling may not be necessary. In fact I would say that "setting" an nut has little to do with it.

For example A good nut placement is where the only way the nut can come out of the placement is if it is lifted up.

Rope drag from the leader climbing up can give an upwards force on the nut and dislodge nuts. That is another good reason to prevent rope drag by using trad draws. However if the climb is relatively straight a short draw is often sufficient for many pieces.

Consider the possibility that you are wrong. Step back from your extreme position and consider that sometimes a quickdraw is fine.

You still haven't explained how quickdraws magically remove nuts. All you do is continually assert that trad draws are needed for all placements. Maybe people who show you more respect if you actually explain you views.

I do however agree with your comment about the power of a falling climber. Setting a nut isn't a solution to a bad nut placement. Your nuts should be place such that forces produced in a fall cannot remove the nut. This is nut placement 101 and should be obvious.

How many climbs did you say you had done all passive, by the way?

Patto, dirtineye DID explain. He refered to the zipper effect. This is a well known effect (refer to FOTH) where the rope exerts a strong UPWARDS force on the nut as the climber weights the rope or falls. It is real--and very worth mentioning in this thread.

I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever.

CM

He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect.

As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem. Sometimes a quickdraw is sufficient to ensure that there is no rope drag, sometimes it isn't and a longer sling is needed.

Are you saying that a draw is NEVER long enough to remove rope drag?

Dev sets his passive pieces with a series of rough jerks. I just about always need a nut tool.

I would personally NOT use a quickdraw on a nut except in very special circumstances--maybe not ever.

He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect.

As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem.

He has not explained why a quickdraw would increase this likely hood of the zipper effect.

As far as I am concerned the only way on a regular route you get any upwards forces on a piece is through rope drag through the piece. If the rope runs smoothly then there isn't a problem.

Let me see if I understand the patto-dirtineye argument.

Patto says that sometimes a short quikdraw style sling is sufficient. Dirtineye responds that you need to consider the zipper effect and sling accordingly. Patto says that even considering the zipper effect, sometimes a short sling is sufficient. Dirtineye says no, and maintains that the zipper effect needs to be considered.

Now, bearing in mind that the zipper effect is only an issue when the path of the rope gets steeper as it goes higher, why wouldn't a short draw be sufficient when the path of the rope doesn't get steeper? More importantly, if you've minimized rope drag, you've likewise minimized the effect of the zipper effect. If a draw is sufficient to achieve that goal, I don't see why it shouldn't be used, especially considering that it shortens the distance you can fall.

Would you suggest, dirtineye, that even on nearly straight routes with perfect keyhole nut placements that are deep and solid enough that the nut won't lift out, that a 24" sling is still the minimum, even though it has no advantages in that situation?

The answer to the op's question is (like everything in climbing) IT DEPENDS. I find it hard to believe that you've done that much climbing, dirtineye, and not encountered a situation where you could (and did) get away with using short quickdraws on nuts, unless your teachers were as patently dogmatic as you.

OK, you start out well, but then I lose you when you make the serious logical errors, including making unproved assumptions among othres.

Try again. Of course, you can always test your IDEA about zippering on a low angle route. But don't volunteer to be the test dummy.


And one last thing, your test situation is just silly.

You are quite right, I have not done much climbing in the last two months. You can however see a few of my exploits in the Dixie Craggers Guide, and you might note a few of the fellows I climb with too.

At least one of them is renowned for nutcraft.

I never said never. I said, MOST people do not know when.

But Fvck yeah, when in any doubt, or even as a matter of course, I extend. Short slinging has put me and my friends in more trouble than anything else. Well except for the time I wanted to drop the giant dead tree on em.

I htink you know where this is going.