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bigga
Sep 10, 2002, 8:03 PM
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Does your quickdraw spine have to be facing the direction you are climbing in? I'm not talking about back-clipping here. I mean if you are going to travice right after a bolt, should the spine of the biner be on the right? I used to do this cos it seemed more logical as far as reducing chances of the rope falling on the gate, and then I was told it doesn't make difference which way the gate is facing... and now I read a post where someone mentioned this...
Should I go back to my old ways?
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fitz
Sep 10, 2002, 8:11 PM
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The basic rule of thumb is, the gate should be facing away from the direction of travel (ie, if you are going right, place the gates facing left). If the route is straight up, alternate.
That said, the general rule may not be best in some specific situations. I think that JT512 has posted some stuff on this in the past.
-jjf
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swisslady
Sep 11, 2002, 3:58 PM
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I second that, especially if you have carabiners with a curved gate (when the gate faces you and you fall diagonally, you risk that the rope unclips itself).
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climbincajun
Sep 11, 2002, 4:04 PM
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yes...gate away from the direction of travel. that way the rope falls across the spine.
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waxman
Sep 11, 2002, 9:04 PM
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whatever works best for you really.....as long as you don't backclip!
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jt512
Sep 12, 2002, 1:40 AM
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Quote:whatever works best for you really.....as long as you don't backclip!
Another beginner with an "opinion." You've been climbing a whole 4 months according to your profile. Your job is to ask questions, not answer them. The purpose of the Beginners Forum is to have a place for beginners to get answers from experienced climbers, not for beginners to spread dangerous misinformation among themselves.
-Jay
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crux_clipper
Sep 12, 2002, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Another beginner with an "opinion." You've been climbing a whole 4 months according to your profile. Your job is to ask questions, not answer them. The purpose of the Beginners Forum is to have a place for beginners to get answers from experienced climbers, not for beginners to spread dangerous misinformation among themselves.
jt512, give waxman a break. Sure his new to climbing, but how do you know that he hasn't been reading up on every bit of climbing litterature for those 4 months, and climbing every weekend?
Just because you have climbed longer then him, and know more then he does, doesn't make him incompetant to give his opinion. Everyone has their right to an opinion, whether it's right or wrong. It may not be correct according to you, but what gives you the right to tell him what he should and shouldn't post.
This was in a discussion not so long ago, about a hierachy within the climbing community. you have now proved that, labelling waxman as a beginner who can't express his opinion, just because his only been climbing for 4 months. While, because you have been climbing since 1985, you are able to tell the beginners what to do, because you are experienced.
Shame on you.....
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jt512
Sep 12, 2002, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
jt512, give waxman a break. Sure his new to climbing, but how do you know that he hasn't been reading up on every bit of climbing litterature for those 4 months...
Because if he'd read anything, he'd know that his answer was wrong and could get someone killed.
Quote:
...and climbing every weekend?
Wow! That would be impressive! A whole 4 months' of weekend climbing.
Quote:Just because you have climbed longer then him, and know more then he does, doesn't make him incompetant to give his opinion.
That's correct. My climbing experience has nothing to do with the fact that he is not competent to field safety questions from other beginners in this forum.
Quote:
Everyone has their right to an opinion, whether it's right or wrong. It may not be correct according to you, but what gives you the right to tell him what he should and shouldn't post.
People are entitled to express their opinions about whether they think blue carabiners are prettier than pink carabiners, but not about safety issues when they have 4 months experience. At that point they don't know enough yet, and these forums become chaotic and full of misinformation, which can get someone killed.
Quote:This was in a discussion not so long ago, about a hierachy within the climbing community. you have now proved that, labelling waxman as a beginner who can't express his opinion, just because his only been climbing for 4 months. While, because you have been climbing since 1985, you are able to tell the beginners what to do, because you are experienced.
You and the other beginners should be glad that there is such a hierarchy.
Quote:
Shame on you.....
Bullshit.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-12 17:47 ]
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climbingaddict
Sep 13, 2002, 11:18 AM
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mam, listen to all these pros talking.. I would say about the same things.. So, why bother..
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dune
Sep 13, 2002, 9:52 PM
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The best way to prevent the rope from accidentally opening a non-oval (or any type actually) biner durring a fall is to turn the biner around after you clip it, especially if you climbing in the direction of the gate. I have a buddy who worries about this so much that he often uses a locker for his first clip on a pitch, but I think that's overkill.
I wonder if there are any statistics on the frequency of this event. Anyone?
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ximiana
Sep 13, 2002, 10:01 PM
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This depent where u climb, and where u can fall, u can protect for the other side that u can fall
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whipper
Sep 13, 2002, 10:15 PM
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A little fo subject here but Jt has got it right and crux you should learn to respect the hierarchy. There is one. That does not mean I am better than you or that jt is. But I damn well garrantee that I have seen more and been exposed to more. So yes our opinions do get more respect.
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rendog
Sep 13, 2002, 10:40 PM
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Gonna have to agree with jt512 on this one.
No offence to the "newbies" but swallow some of that pride and just ask questions. too many ppl hurt because they " thought"they knew an answer.
4 months of weekend climbing does not justify an answer like "doesn't matter".
Yes it does matter. In fact a matter of staying on route and not decking out.
And yes as the rule of thumb goes: "gates away from your travel".
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rocknpowda
Sep 13, 2002, 10:47 PM
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This is simple, but hard to explain with words. Go to the crag or the gym and check out the hangers there and you'll see what I mean.
The proper way to clip a quickdraw to a bolt is so it hangs with the gate of the biner on the same side as the bolt is on the hanger. Basically the gate should hang below the bolt. On all hangers that I know of, this is on the right side so you should clip from the left with a rightward motion. This puts the force of the pull on the spine all the time. Though extremely rare, clipping the other way exposes you to risk of torqueing and breaking the biner that is clipped to the hanger.
The biner on the quickdraw that holds the rope can face either way but you always have to clip the rope so that the it runs from the belayer up the rock and away out through the biner to your harness. Opposite from this is backclipping which I am sure is discussed in many places on this site. Though rare, backclipping can lead to the rope popping the gate open and falling out of the quickdraw.
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thrillseeker05
Sep 13, 2002, 10:48 PM
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Just because you have climbed longer and seen more doesn’t mean you should gain respect nor does it mean that you know anything about what you are talking about. I have seen many people out-climb more experienced climbers and I have seen many experienced climbers make the stupidest mistakes. There is NO hierarchy in climbing.
Respect is given to those that EARN it. your knowledge and your abilities are the only thing that earn it. I don’t care if you have been top roping for the last 20 years.
Bad advice can come from any level and it often does. If it is bad advice then that’s all it is.
you should never degrade someone because of the amount of time they have been on the rock. Instead, if bad advice is given… just help them see the light..
check your 10year macho bullshit at the door.
[ This Message was edited by: thrillseeker05 on 2002-09-13 15:52 ]
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jt512
Sep 14, 2002, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
The proper way to clip a quickdraw to a bolt is so it hangs with the gate of the biner on the same side as the bolt is on the hanger. Basically the gate should hang below the bolt. On all hangers that I know of, this is on the right side so you should clip from the left with a rightward motion. This puts the force of the pull on the spine all the time. Though extremely rare, clipping the other way exposes you to risk of torqueing and breaking the biner that is clipped to the hanger.
Now that's a new one. Can you provide any evidence a biner has ever broken because it has been torqued by this mechanism?
I've never heard of what the (supposed) issue you mention, but there are two other issues wrt which direction the bolt-end draw should face:
1. If the gate is facing the bolt head, there is a minute chance that it can catch on the bolt head and open in a fall. This argues against doing what you suggest (I think).
2. If the bolt-end biner's gate is facing the direction the route traverses above the bolt, there is a chance that the gate can be pulled into the hanger when the rope tends to rotate the draw up as the climber climbs past it and to one side. In a fall, the hanger could unclip or break.
I suspect that issue #2 is the most important, so I keep my draws set up with the gates of the 2 biners facing the same dirction, and I place the draw so that the spines of both gates are away from the line of travel.
Quote:
The biner on the quickdraw that holds the rope can face either way...
Why do you believe this when every climbing instruction book, every experienced sport climber I've met, and common sense says otherwise?
-Jay
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whipper
Sep 14, 2002, 3:56 AM
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JT is right again. And thrill seeker my knowledge and abilities have earned it. you dont know me and i did not disrespect you. So dont go there with me.
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coldclimb
Sep 14, 2002, 5:43 AM
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Quote:Just because you have climbed longer and seen more doesn’t mean you should gain respect nor does it mean that you know anything about what you are talking about.
It may not mean anything knowledge-wise, but anyone who has climbed for 15 years gets my respect.
Quote:There is NO hierarchy in climbing.
Respect is given to those that EARN it. your knowledge and your abilities are the only thing that earn it.
oh, I see now, some people begin climbing with more knowledge and experience than others gain in 15 years. I don't think so.
Quote:If it is bad advice then that’s all it is.
This bad advice can KILL.
Quote:you should never degrade someone because of the amount of time they have been on the rock.
He wasn't, he was degrading him for giving bad advice.
Don't feel bad for being yelled at for giving bad advice. I would consider myself lucky that someone corrected me in so blatant a manner before I was the cause of someone's death. He was wrong, he was informed, it's over now.
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rendog
Sep 15, 2002, 3:36 AM
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well put man.
JT512 doesn't have my, no offense meant here in anyway bro, personal respect, simply because I don't know him.
HOWEVER!!! The words that he speaks are the truth. This is one of the things that I was taught from the very start. and not just from joe schmuck at the crag, but from the WAY too may guides here around Canmore.
I will say that after 10+ years climbing, He's probably more apt to say the right thing and give sound advice.
keep your sticks on the ice.
"D"
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farmerc
Sep 15, 2002, 4:18 AM
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I don't think the rule of clipping so taht the spine is in the direction of travel applies solely to sport. Thats why I keep that in mind even on trad climbs. I check my biner position and consider the route before I make each clip. Its something that other trad leaders can learn to keep in mind, as trad is shifting away from that "don't fall" mentality.
~Chris
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joemor
Sep 15, 2002, 4:31 AM
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what happens when you use long runners to make draws that twist from one side to the other, essentially going from correctly clipped to back clipped?
joe
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crux_clipper
Sep 15, 2002, 10:21 AM
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Just to clear everything up for me JT, clipping a draw properly sees the rope coming from behind the biner and out the front. So how is it physically possible to fall from above or beside the draw (and generallly when you fall, you fall away from he face, simple gravity tells us this), then end up behind it, enabling it to unclip miraculously?
Quote:
Now that's a new one. Can you provide any evidence a biner has ever broken because it has been torqued by this mechanism?
1. I have heard stories of 'Lucky' brand biners on draws breaking in a fall.
2. Can you provide any evidence that a rope will unclip itself if the gate is facing the direction of the climber?
Quote:
whatever works best for you really.....as long as you don't backclip!
Waxman is completely right when he said this. Had you have backlipped and fell, the chances of the draw unclipping itself has increased immensly. I agree with this opinion more then which way the draw should be.
Plus, joe's right, a runner twists and turns all the time, i actually saw this happen in a traversing route i lead the other day. It's just as dangerous, is it not? I didn't even think twice about which way the draw was facing, as i new there was no danger.
Quote:
You and the other beginners should be glad that there is such a hierarchy.
Although it doesn't say it in my profile, i have actually been climbing for two years, and before i even considered leading outdoors, i took a weekend instructional course with accredited guides. For almost a year now i have been able to trad lead outdoors, and i am experienced enough to go away on extended trips for climbing. So basically JT, you assumed that i was a beginner due to my age, is that right? So at what age is a person not a beginner, and how many years of experience does one need to not be considered a beginner?
Quote:
you should never degrade someone because of the amount of time they have been on the rock. Instead, if bad advice is given… just help them see the light..
check your 10year macho bullshit at the door.
my hat goes off to you good sir
[ This Message was edited by: crux_clipper on 2002-09-15 03:31 ]
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ajkclay
Sep 15, 2002, 2:04 PM
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I have worked in jobs with people who have been there for 20+ years, and they were complete idiots! Time doing something doesn't necessarily make you an expert, and entitle you to respect.
The way you speak to others however, does greatly reduce the respect that others will have for you.
JT in future when reading your comments, my,(and probably others) perception of them will be coloured by the image you have created for yourself. It doesn't take much effort to put forward an opinion or correct someone nicely.
You and certain others are attacking people with a ferocity that will give this site the reputation of being nothing but a place where a self important few are allowed to bully whomever they like. CUT
IT OUT!
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basecamp_junkie
Sep 15, 2002, 3:10 PM
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I agree. Whether a lifetime of experience, or four months, a little bit of tact would be in order. Moral of the story, do your homework, research the answer to your question, ask the opinions of those who are experienced and who you trust, then make your own informed decision.
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dirtbag
Sep 16, 2002, 6:07 AM
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Switch to bouldering - less worries.
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jt512
Sep 16, 2002, 7:50 PM
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Quote:
Just to clear everything up for me JT, clipping a draw properly sees the rope coming from behind the biner and out the front. So how is it physically possible to fall from above or beside the draw (and generallly when you fall, you fall away from he face, simple gravity tells us this), then end up behind it, enabling it to unclip miraculously?
You don't have to "end up behind" the draw for the rope to come unclipped. The rope doesn't necessarily behave so predictably in a fall. Should a loop of slack catch on the nose of the carabiner, the rope can unclip. Granted, the chances, if you haven't backclipped, are low, but why take the chance at all.
Quote:Quote:
Now that's a new one. Can you provide any evidence a biner has ever broken because it has been torqued by this mechanism?
1. I have heard stories of 'Lucky' brand biners on draws breaking in a fall.
That is not evidence that it broke by the mechanism you stated. I've heard of lots of biners breaking. In every instance, when the mecahnism was determinable, it was found to be because the biner was loaded with the gate open, not because it was torqued by being clipped the "wrong" way thru the hanger.
Quote:
2. Can you provide any evidence that a rope will unclip itself if the gate is facing the direction of the climber?
Not empirical evidence -- I don't know of a single case. Of course, nearly all experienced sport climbers clip the way I described, so they don't fall on the gate side of the biner very often. However, logic and common sense suggest that the rope should not run across the gate of the biner. If you don't think it matters, that's fine by me, but I wouldn't climb on draws you placed.
Quote:
Plus, joe's right, a runner twists and turns all the time...
That's why good sport draws have stiff webbing that doesn't twist and turn.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-16 13:04 ]
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coldclimb
Sep 17, 2002, 4:09 AM
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Quote:JT in future when reading your comments, my,(and probably others) perception of them will be coloured by the image you have created for yourself.
Most definately. Youve gained my respect.
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paintinhaler
Sep 17, 2002, 5:11 AM
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R-E-S-P-E-C-T find out what it means to me.......sorry I do this sometimes
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orbizy
Sep 17, 2002, 6:46 AM
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Once again, I will say this: This forum does not entail ROCKET SCIENCE. Common sense (and textbooks) will tell you to face the gate away from the direction you are going. Duh.
I don't understand how when JT is saving someone from there own ignorance people, become so upset.
I would have never asked my friend who had been driving for only a few months to teach me how to drive a car. Or a person who just started skydiving to take me up in his plane to teach me.
To teach you must know. If you are ignorant and "teaching" bullshit (which could get people hurt), it must be acknowledged as bullshit coming from an incompetent source.
I'm not trying to disrespect anyone here. However, I am only speaking truth.
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thrillseeker05
Sep 17, 2002, 5:13 PM
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JT gave good advice only his mannerism was wrong. And again he is right that I don’t know him… so therefore he has not earned any respect from me even if he has climbed for a long time. advice is just advice even if it is bad or good. Bad advice can kill only if you take it. you see you are still in control of using your own common sense and your own good judgment. So many of the people here can just step off their high-horse and realize that if someone gives bad advice.. don’t take it.. if you want to correct them do so in a manner that doesn’t turn you into a self righteous dick. Then maybe the others will listen to what you say rather then get on your case for HOW you said it.
JT has good knowledge.. just wish he would figure out how to convey it.
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rocknpowda
Sep 17, 2002, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The biner on the quickdraw that holds the rope can face either way...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you believe this when every climbing instruction book, every experienced sport climber I've met, and common sense says otherwise?
END QUOTE
So which way is the proper way? should the biner ALWAYS face left or ALWAYS face right? As long as your not back clipped, it doesn't matter which way the biner faces the rope isn't coming out. I am an experienced sport climber and I have read climbing literature and it nnever says always face the rope biner right or left. I'll accept your argument about the bolt end biner but Your pretty vague about the rope end.
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wigglestick
Sep 17, 2002, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
As long as your not back clipped, it doesn't matter which way the biner faces the rope isn't coming out.
The good folks at Black Diamond disagree with you on that issue. Points 4 & 5 HERE
Another issue that nobody is mentioning is that there is a potential for the draw coming unclipped from the bolt, not only the rope, if the gate on the bolt end of the draw is facing the wrong direction. This is why you should organize your quickdraws with the gates of the two biners facing the same direction because then when you face the gates the proper direction, i.e. away from the direction you are climbing, you minimize the possibility of the rope coming unclipped and the draw coming unclipped from the bolt.
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jumaringjeff
Sep 17, 2002, 6:49 PM
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This has been one hell of a fun thread to read. Keep it up kids!!!
-jj
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jt512
Sep 18, 2002, 1:06 AM
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Quote:
So which way is the proper way [for]end biner to face]?
The rope should run over the spine of the biner, not the gate.
Quote:
should the biner ALWAYS face left or ALWAYS face right?
No.
Quote:
As long as your not back clipped, it doesn't matter which way the biner faces the rope isn't coming out.
Why do you keep repeating this incorrect statement?
Quote:
I am an experienced sport climber...
Would you mind quantifiying that for us?
Quote:
...and I have read climbing literature and it nnever says always face the rope biner right or left.
That's because "right or left" is obviously not the issue.
Quote:
I'll accept your argument about the bolt end biner but Your pretty vague about the rope end.
If the route climbs up and right of the bolt, the gate of the rope-end biner faces left. If the route climbs up and left of the bolt, the gate faces right. If it goes absolutely straight up (an unusal case), it doesn't matter.
You should have been taught this the very first time you led a sport climb.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-17 18:07 ]
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crux_clipper
Sep 18, 2002, 6:12 AM
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jt, your message on 2002-09-15 03:21 was much better. For a while, i was pissed because you kept posting replies aimed at people paying out on them (including me).
Now, i'm not a beginnner, but not as experienced as you. I still think your advice came out the wrong way, but it's still valid, as is every other persons opinion on this site, no matter their experience levels, or yime period of climbing.
If it hadn't been for waxmans post earlier, this discussion wouldn't have taclked the issue of the ammount of experience needed to make such decisions. Everyone has had their imput, just because it has been so controversial this particular post.
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vergon
Sep 18, 2002, 7:18 AM
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Quote:This is why you should organize your quickdraws with the gates of the two biners facing the same direction
Is this accepted practice? Since almost all quickdraws seem to be sold with gates opposing each other, I just thought that was the correct way. But if it's accepted that it's better to have the gates facing the same way, I'm gonna rearrange my draws...
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overlord
Sep 18, 2002, 10:01 AM
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OverLord quietly raises his hand in the far corne of the room and quietly expresses his humble opinion:
the gate of a biner shuld always face in the opposide side of your traversing, ie, if you traverse to the lef, gate on the right and vice versa.
CLIMB ON
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wigglestick
Sep 18, 2002, 1:55 PM
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vergon,
A couple of years ago Black Diamond sent all their quickdraws out with the gates facing opposite directions. Then they had a paradigm shift and they explained it in one of there catalogs (2000 or 2001 I believe). There reasoning was that if you place the quickdraw correctly so that the rope crosses over the spine and not the gate, the draw will rotate slightly around the bolt and if the gates are facing opposite directions this can cause the bolt to force open the gate of the biner, or at least in the event of a fall it could load the nose of the biner rather than the much stronger spine. I don't think that manufacturers send out quickdraws with this in mind. More likely they just put them together which ever way is fastest and 50% of the time you get one with the gates facing the wrong way.
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mcfoley
Sep 18, 2002, 9:19 PM
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Registered: May 15, 2002
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Waxman was right...and I quote
"whatever works for you"...
Sure whater you feel like doing...it's just fine..............
While your at it, don't bother to tie a figure 8 to your harness...any knot will do...
don't bother locking your belay 'biner either...doesn't really matter...
double back your harness...??? who cares...whatever works for you...???
what about the SRENE acronym...(or any other)....WHO NEEDS IT...WHATEVER MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD INSIDE...WHATEVER YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH...
WHO THE F*&^ WOULD SAY THIS KIND OF STUFF???
There are a million things that can go wrong while climbing...the idea is to
REDUCE RISK AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE...
WHILE RISKING IT ALL!!!YES IT ALL!!!
GO TO THE ACCIDENTS FORUM AND READ UP A BIT...PEOPLE DIE, WHY, MAYBE BECAUSE THEY BACK CLIPPED...MAYBE BECAUSE THEY MIS-CLIPPED, MAYBE BECAUSE THEIR FRIEND SAID " DOEN'T REALLY MATTER...WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU!!!
IGNORANCE IS BLISS!!! SO IS A SHATTERED SPINE ACCORDING TO WAXMAN!!
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jumaringjeff
Sep 18, 2002, 9:46 PM
Post #40 of 54
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Holy shit!
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timpanogos
Nov 2, 2002, 12:15 AM
Post #41 of 54
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I would have to agree with Jay on everything in here - except one thing:
Jay said the following:
"That's why good sport draws have stiff webbing that doesn't twist and turn."
This was in regards to a few questions/comments about trad and runners having the same back clip/traverse to gate relationship problems as found in sport.
Actually it's the stiff webbing on draws that create the greatest danger to a back clipped biner, or the unclipping/breakage of a biner pulled against/into the bracket.
A good sport QD has stiff webbing (plus the rubber to biner grommets that lock the biner to the webbing in a fixed position) to make for easier clipping – so you are not chasing the darn bottom biner all over trying to grab/clip it on long lose webbing. BUT it is exactly this same stiffness, shortness, and especially the grommets which causes the biner on the bolt side to "walk" to a bad position as the climber goes up, or for enough counter force available to allow an unclip on that back clipped bolt.
In trad, on say a 2’ runner, no grommets – you do not have to worry about the walking – upper biner problem. In fact that is one of the biggest reasons that you put long floppy runners on trad pro – to avoid walking the piece. Unclipping a back clip is also much less likely because of the lack of stiffness allowing for an unclip. However you still do not want the rope laying across the gate, and not back clipping is just good habit – even for trad. So the rules should be the same for trad – it’s just those darn short/stiff QD aggravate the potential of disaster if you break the rules on sport
1. both biner gates same direction on QD
2. face gate opposite direction of climbing – if somewhat traversing.
3. and of course, never back clip.
Chad
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pelliott
Nov 2, 2002, 12:43 AM
Post #42 of 54
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I found two pictures that illustrate the bolt side clipping issue extremely well.
In both of these pictures, the climber mistakenly faced the gate of the biner in the direction of travel. By facing the gate away from the direction of travel, both of these problems would be avoided.
As far as the rope side goes, you can see BD's recommendation in this picture.
The gate again needs to be away from the direction of travel. In this case to prevent the bent gate from catching on the rope in a fall.
To prevent unclipping on both the rope side and the bolt side, you need the gates of both biners pointing the same way on your draws and you clip with these gates pointed away from your line of travel.
I hope this is now as clear as mud.
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geoteck
Nov 7, 2002, 12:05 AM
Post #43 of 54
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When it comes to personal safety - clipping, knots, belaying, etc, I think the best thing to do is NOT take anyone's opinion on the site. Go to a qualified and CERTIFIED instructor. Just because someone has experience doesn't mean they've been doing it right. (While they probably have, can you be sure??)
No offence is meant by this to anyone experienced. All I mean is that it is best to KNOW the person is qualified. It is very easy to say you have experience - but how do we know.
This site is good for "what kind of shoes do you like" and opinions on how good a route is. (And more) As for safety issues, I personally ask questions and then form an opinion based on those I THINK are experienced (or those I personally know). I then ask an instructor for his take on the entire thing.
Once again no offence to the experienced people out there.
Be Safe.
[ This Message was edited by: geoteck on 2002-11-06 16:07 ]
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jt512
Nov 8, 2002, 2:42 AM
Post #44 of 54
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In reponse to Geoteck, sure, interpret what you read here with caution and ask an instructor if you're in doubt, but...
You can't always run off to an instructor for every question, and sometimes experienced recreational climbers know better than instructors. Three expamples:
First, sport climbers started setting up their draws with the gates of both biners on the same side long before most instructors or gear manufacturers did. Slowly, they are catching. BD switched theirs a couple years ago, for instance.
Second, until just a couple years ago, the Canadian Mountain Guide Association recommended the double figure-8 knot to join two rappel ropes, while experienced climbers had known for years that this is actually a very dangerous knot for this purpose.
Third (and this one some people are going to disagree with), as I understand it, AMGA has recently stopped teaching the venerable "pinch and slide" method of taking in rope when belaying, and is now teaching a two-handed method of belaying where the rope usually kept in the locked off position, instead. To make a long story short, you're going to piss off a sport climber real quick if you try to belay like that. It's safe, but way too slow. If anybody wants to discuss this, start another thread in Sport Climbing, in order to keep this thread on topic.
-Jay
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geoteck
Nov 8, 2002, 7:15 AM
Post #45 of 54
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That is a good point - you can't always run to an instructor.
But most beginners have the option of taking a class or asking someone certified.
If I'm starting something I don't know how to do, I'm going to talk to someone I personally trust or an instructor BEFORE I get in that situation. And if someone has time to post a question here - they likely have time to talk to someone.
As for your examples. I have no way of knowing if you are right or not - and I'm not just going to take your word for it.
1.) I haven't been climbing long enough to know how draws were set up before.
2.) Never rapelled but will be taking it in a class next week.
3.) Not sure what you mean by "pinch and slide"
However, I would be interested in talking more so....
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=19367&forum=16&0
[ This Message was edited by: geoteck on 2002-11-07 23:19 ]
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jt512
Nov 8, 2002, 4:34 PM
Post #46 of 54
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Quote:As for your examples. I have no way of knowing if you are right or not...
Sure you do. Think it through.
Quote:
1.) I haven't been climbing long enough to know how draws were set up before.
They were set up the way most climbers still set up their draws, with the gates of the biners facing opposite directions -- the so-called "trans" configuration. Slowly, however, the "cis" configuration (gates on the same side), thought to be safer, is catching on.
Now take a look at the two colored pictures above. The pictured rotation of the quickdraw occurs when the climber climbs above and to one side of the bolt. The draw gets dragged up by friction with the rope. You can see this happen for yourself by watching climbers at the gym or sport crag.
Climbers place their draws so that the spine of the rope-side biner faces the direction thr route proceeds above the bolt so that the rope doesn't cross over the gate (see the black-and-white pics). Now, if the draw is trans configured, then when the draw rotates as the climber moves up, the gate of the bolt-end biner can come into contact with hanger, as pictured, or pulled through the hanger. In contrast, if the draw is cis configured, the spine will contact the bolt instead, which is safer.
There you go. No need to pay an instructor for that one.
Quote:
2.) Never rapelled but will be taking it in a class next week.
Now, if your class had been about two years ago in Canada, your certified instructor would likely have taught you to tie your rappel ropes together with a knot that could kill you. That knot, the double figure-8, in fact, was responsible for a recent fatality. The partner of the climber who died described the accident in a post on this site. I recommend you look it up, then do some research on the web on rappel knots.
Chances are, your instructor will either teach you the double fisherman's or the rewoven figure-8 with double fisherman's backups; however, if you do your homework, you may come to the conclusion that I and many other experienced climbers have that the scary-looking double overhand -- the so-called Euro Death Knot (EDK) -- is actually safer.
I'm not dissing certified instructors; rather, I'm trying to make the point that they don't know everything, and that you shouldn't blindly trust any single source of information.
-Jay
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pbjosh
Nov 8, 2002, 5:05 PM
Post #47 of 54
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First off, the biggest point here is that newbies would be much better served to stop offering opinions/advice on safety issues and start listening to people with more experience. 15 years climbing doesn't have to earn respect but it is a better place to start than alot of the drivel others have offered up here.
Here's another issue with trans configured draws - if you, say, head more or less up and clip a trans draw to a bolt and head more left than up, then clip another bolt and fall or take, it's easy to have the first draw rotate to the left and load over the nose of the top biner, which isn't dangerous to the leader due to it being a previous placement, but should the prior placement fail it'd be bad, and it's not good for the longevity of your biners.
Secondly, question for Jay - do you tie a second overhand for a backup when you rap on an EDK? I'm a tried and true believer in the EDK and I've never had a rope stick even WITH a backup knot (tie the backup knot within a few inches of the primary knot so that it is held aloft more or less whenever being pulled), although the heigtened chance is there. So I use a backup knot...
josh
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jamison
Nov 8, 2002, 5:09 PM
Post #48 of 54
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firstly,
JT, your getting much better about the tactfull response. I agree with many people before, you can sound like a real asshole sometime.
to everyone,
However...Its a website, not a tavern. I don't expect we will ever be having drinks together, so everyone should just get over it.
Additionally, I think that experience is important. So is a brain. Not every book book and every "experienced" person is right.
For example, one thing that I find disagreement on is webbing (strength/UV damage/etc.) I won't get into specifics, cause it don't matter here.
Lastly, I think listening to JT is generally good. from what I have read, heard, and deduced in my brain...he is generally right. I'm still thinking about the "stiff quick draw" issue.
Now, back on topic...
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jamison
Nov 8, 2002, 5:10 PM
Post #49 of 54
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What a pain in the ass. I just recently changed all my quickdraws to have opposing gates for easy clipping. Now I have to change them all back.
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jamison
Nov 8, 2002, 5:14 PM
Post #50 of 54
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What about opposing facing biners, but then after clipping the rope, rotating the rope-end biner? This allow for easy clipping (with the hassle of rotating the biner) and then still reduces the chance of a loop of slack accidently unclipping the rope.
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jt512
Nov 8, 2002, 5:43 PM
Post #51 of 54
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Quote:
... it's easy to have the first draw rotate to the left and load over the nose of the top biner, which isn't dangerous to the leader due to it being a previous placement, but should the prior placement fail it'd be bad, and it's not good for the longevity of your biners.
I've heard of two instances of the draw on the next-to-last clipped bolt coming off in a lead fall. In both cases the biner on the bolt was a wire gate. It is possible that the wire-gate got caught on the bolt head, as shown in the right picture on the previous page. I think that that is more a danger with wire gates than with conventional gates, which are rounded, and would tend to slide off the bolt head. I have no evidence to back that up, though.
Quote:
do you tie a second overhand for a backup when you rap on an EDK?
No the test results posted to rec.clibming and elsewhere suggest to me that no backup is necessary if the tails are long enough. Under heavy enough loads (really, more than would be expected during a rappel) the EDK will roll; however, it tightens as it does so, so the knot actually improves.
My concern about using a backup knot with an EDK is that it might partially defeat the EDK's biggest advantage: it's low, anti-snag profile. Keeping the backup knot close to the main knot might help keep the overall profile low, as you suggest; however, I really think that the EDK is safe without it. You just have to ignore the messages emanating from your visual cortex that say otherwise.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-08 10:12 ]
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timpanogos
Nov 8, 2002, 6:05 PM
Post #52 of 54
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Geoteck
I took about 3 classes from so-called "Instructors" when I started.
Where did I find these instructors? Out of pro-shops and climbing gyms. I learned much more from reading/questioning on this site and others, as well as obtaining/studying the standard books, and finding good mentors.
I suppose that if you went to an actual guide service, and hired a guide, now you are going to get real instruction - verses the kid going to college working at the gear store part time (case with 2 of the 3 classes I took).
Now just what is it that is going to make this guide a true instructor? EXPERIENCE, and as Jay said - he will be tying a EDK, he will belay you on sport in a manner so as not to short rope you, or wall slam you (not in the manner taught to gumbies so they don’t kill someone first time out).
Many things will be taught in offical class room style with an eye towards liability - Because of this, they will be teaching you (as Pass The Piton Pete would say) the Theorist Way, not necessarily the "Better Way".
Always weight things out with common sense - but don't be afaird to listen to experience.
Chad
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varstar10
Nov 8, 2002, 7:35 PM
Post #53 of 54
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Clipping with the gate facing the opp direction of the way you are going im sure is the right and proper way. But i personaly have had no problem with that...
When i am climbing i just clip the draw and rope. I really dont worry about the dirrection of the draw inless i am making a hard clip and i want it facing the dirrection i am better and clipping. Just dont back clip. thats the only thing that i feel i have to worry about...
If it worries you...do what others think is right...or just do what makes you comfortable...
Jon
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geoteck
Nov 8, 2002, 11:37 PM
Post #54 of 54
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OK, so I agree that instruction changes over time (it's the same in any sport - instructors evolve).
I also agree that sometimes they don't always adopt 'new' methods as quickly as 'proven' methods. Even if the new method is better.
That being said - I generally trust them more than something I read on the internet (anyone can post on the net).
JT512
I feel I can trust your opinion of the draws from your (and other people's) explanations given. I also believe you when you say you're experienced, but would still rather talk to a live person explaining it than someone who may or may not be leading me on.
Thus - I still am leary of the rapelling knot you explained and would be interested in you explaining it a little more to me.
Just be careful in who you trust!
[ This Message was edited by: geoteck on 2002-11-08 15:39 ]
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