Also, does one bad customer service rep mean that their entire line of customer service is bad? I don't know that I would feel comfortable saying I would never buy from Mad Rock because of one representative on an internet forum.

jimdavis seems to have a real hard-on for Mad Rock that he just won't let go. Personally, I find his comments to border on libel--as I have had nothing but great customer service from Mad Rock. I suspect his bad experience with Mad Rock was largely his own fault. Also, Evolv certainly makes a fine shoe, but to say outright they are "better" than Mad Rocks (particularly in terms of performance) is a statement that jimdavis is in no position to make.

Curt

I have been climbing for 4 months. Mine have worked very well for me. I don't care about the customer service, I just want to climb. Arguing over one petty sales representative that posts on internet forums is beyond me.

Also, what evolv's are you talking about? The cheapest pair I could find was $78... which is $21 more than my pair of mad rocks. $21 may just be $21, but that $21 helps out with a lot of the initial costs of just getting into climbing.

Now I really am going to go pack for my trip, so if/when you answer this, I probably won't get it for several days.

Curt, if you read the thread, you'd have seen that my opinion of Madrock's customer service is not due to any specific personal interaction I had with them.

Maybe when you've been climbing a little longer, and have a need to interact with the companies you buy from, then you'll care about customer service.

Jim, you're a real piece of work. First you say:


Then you say:


You're simply talikng out of your ass. Plus, no one cares what shoes you or your friends climb in, since most people I know could climb anything you have ever done wearing swim fins. Give the Mad Rock slandering a rest, for Christ sake.

Curt

Medicus, I hope your right, that he did get fired. He's been fired from every other place he's worked at in the industry, too! Unfortunatly, I contacted the company asking them is his behavior was acceptable by them, they didn't have a problem with it, and he's one of the senior staff at MR. So I don't see him going anywhere. As of last year, he was still with the company.

He treated the buying public like shit on here, and I spoke up about it. I've worked with plenty of reps in the paddlesports, and climbing industry, and he shouldn't have a job doing it. He took on the name of his company as his username, and acted like a jerk. If he wants to do it afterwork, that's his business....when he's posting using his company's name...that bugs me.

I flat out told him I'd give him a hard time about it until he appoligized to the users and the boards here for his actions...he didn't, tried to insult me as well...and I'm keeping my promise.

You said customer service isn't important to you, and that you've only been at it for 4 months. Well, bottom line is your gonna have questions about gear...and if you've been climbing for 4 months, and only have a pair of shoes and some other gym gear or whatever...then you probably haven't gone out shopping for a rack and contacted companies with some specific questions about their gear. So, given that you have a pretty limited experience with this...I said what I did. You can take offense if you want, it wasn't intended. If I wanted to insult you, my post would have sounded more like Curt's.

Again, my comments have spoken to the customer service and company presence on these boards. If you like their products and choose to support them...then go ahead. Your money buys a product, but it also supports a company...

Jim

I have an entire sport climbing rack.
I have much more than just "gym" gear.
I was saying customer service wasn't important to me with the intent of saying that as a beginner, I just wanted to get a cheap pair of shoes that would get me through my first few months.

As for the "talking out of your ass comment," I believe he said that because you said you had previously had no direct contact with Joe, and then you said that direct contact with customer service is very important to you.

I only find offense with the way it seems that you are talking down to me.

...It's only slander if it isn't true...everything I've bought up about Joe can be seen publicly on these boards. As to your friends climbing everything I can in swimming fins...right. THAT'S not slanderous or anything...dipshit...

No, that is just a fact. You're one of the most clueless gumbies on this site--and you're trying, in this very thread, to tell another poster that they should have more experience before posting their opinion. Try looking in a mirror, weakmo.

Curt

jimdavis's Logbook

2006-10-15 Red Point V0 Bilbo's Revenge
2006-10-14 Red Point V0 Cream
2006-10-10 Red Point 5.7 Funhouse
2006-10-10 Red Point 5.6 Thin Air ***
2006-10-09 Onsight 5.7 Slabs Direct
2006-10-09 Top Rope 5.5 Upper Refuse
2006-10-01 Red Point 5.7 Gunklandia **
2006-05-12 Top Rope 5.8 Thinner *
2005-02-16 Red Point WI3 Main Pillar
2004-09-25 Onsight 5.7 Old Town ***
2004-09-12 Top Rope 5.5 Standard Route
2004-05-16 Onsight 5.3 Betty
2004-05-16 Onsight 5.6 Spare Ribs
2004-05-14 Red Point 5.9 Happy Face
2004-05-05 Top Rope 5.8 Slice Of The Gunks
2004-05-05 Top Rope
2004-05-05 Top Rope 5.10c Route Awakening
2004-05-01 Top Rope 5.9 Wheaties
2004-05-01 Top Rope 5.10b Attitude Adjuster
2004-04-30 Red Point 5.4 Easy Stuff
2004-03-12 Red Point 5.8 Itching to Climb
2003-11-14 Hang Dog 5.9 They Died Laughing
2003-11-14 Hang Dog 5.8 Mantleshelf
2003-09-27 Top Rope 5.8 Alley Fox
2003-09-14 Hang Dog 5.9 Hard Stuff
2003-09-14 Red Point 5.9 Happy Face
2003-08-03 Red Point 5.6 Neophyte Delight
2003-07-04 Flash 5.10b Puss in Boots
2003-07-04 Red Point 5.9 Orange Sunshine
2003-07-04 Top Rope
2003-07-04 Flash 5.7 Dancing Nancy
2003-04-20 Onsight 5.5 Pried and Joy
2003-04-12 Top Rope 5.7 Foxy Lady
2003-04-12 Onsight 5.8 Upside Down Staircase

Sorry, I should have said "roller skates." That shit would be way too easy in swim fins. HaHa. fucking poseur.

Curt

And your one of the most arrogant prick(s) on this site.

I don't need to defend myself to you Curt, I've impressed enough people I've met personally, that anything you have to say in your pot-shot posts has little value to me.

Jim

And your one of the most arrogant prick on this site. As for a clueless gumby...who's the genius that tried to argue that a Reebok is a good belay device?

Arrogant? Perhaps, but at least I don't combine that with incompetence--like you.


You must know a lot of people who are easily impressed.

Curt

...Only a short-sighted fool would both assume that the list in an ONLINE profile is complete and an accurate depiction of one's ability, as well as to assume that the difficulty at which one climbs has anything to do with their knowledge as a climber.

Perhaps a well known quote is worth repeating..."The best climber is the one having the most fun." I'm sure you can debate the merit of that statement at your next mensa meeting.

That thread was nothing short of brilliant.

[ You being knowledgeable as climber is a total joke. You're clueless. Worse yet (by far) is that you try to act otherwise.

Thanks--I'm quite proud of that one. Oh, by the way, they we Merrells, Jim. Only a fucking lunatic would try to belay with Reeboks.

Curt

Tell me though, Curt...how is it that you have any idea what I really know? You know, being that you have never met me personally, nor anyone who I ever worked with/ climbed with?

Jim

Sorry dude, but a set of draws doesn't constitute a rack, it's gym gear. When you start researching every cam, nut, hex, etc on the market....then we can talk.

I posted my opinions about Joe due to what I saw on these boards. I contacted his customer service dept about his behavior...they backed him, I know what I think about them.

The support I get from companies is important. How Madrock (the user, and considering that the company supported his actions, the company as well) treats their customers is unacceptable to me. Most every other company I've worked with has been extreemly helpful.

So what I said is true, it wasn't 1 specific personal interaction between Joe and I that caused me to speak up, it was the image he gave his company. However, how a company treats its customers, is important to me....so, where's the confussion with what I've said?

Jim

Just our of curiousity, when was the last time you brought in an outside a set of draws and used them in a gym?

and if it makes a difference he's mainly going to do bouldering and hes 6' if that means anything

...the last time I lead in a gym, i did.

Jim

Priceless. Did you redpoint the 5.5 green route?

Curt

I, unlike you, have spent the time and money to be trained and evaluated by multiple professionals.

Sorry dude, but a set of draws doesn't constitute a rack, it's gym gear. When you start researching every cam, nut, hex, etc on the market....then we can talk...

Jim,
You are an elitist prick. Didn't he refer to his rack as a sport rack?
You paid Mark Synott to teach you to climb, he is one hell of a nice person, why not pay him to teach you some manners?

Oh, 6 feet is he? Good thing you mentioned that. I was going to suggest the La Sportiva Muira but that has been known to spontaneously combust on people taller than 5'6. Better go with a 5.10 slipper.

...Funny how I get the red card for manners, considering who else is involved in the thread.

Jim

Actually, it makes perfect sense to most people.

Curt

It's "you're" and "one" Einstein. Oh, and a period is nice at the end of a sentence, genius. Jesus, it's too bad the guy didn't just pull the trigger.

Curt

This from a guy who wished a fellow RC.com'er had been shot in the face, while being robbed at gun-point. And why did you say that again, Curt? Oh yeah, their grammer wasn't perfect.
Jim

...You a middle aged man, who feels the need to respond at length about the inexperience of others whom you've never met, purely because your intelligence or wit feels challenged. You're bitter, arrogant, insecure...

Jim

...Maybe someday he can be cool enough to talk trash on an internet forum...

jimdavis's Logbook

2006-10-15 Red Point V0 Bilbo's Revenge
2006-10-14 Red Point V0 Cream
2006-10-10 Red Point 5.7 Funhouse
2006-10-10 Red Point 5.6 Thin Air ***
2006-10-09 Onsight 5.7 Slabs Direct
2006-10-09 Top Rope 5.5 Upper Refuse
2006-10-01 Red Point 5.7 Gunklandia **
2006-05-12 Top Rope 5.8 Thinner *
2005-02-16 Red Point WI3 Main Pillar
2004-09-25 Onsight 5.7 Old Town ***
2004-09-12 Top Rope 5.5 Standard Route
2004-05-16 Onsight 5.3 Betty
2004-05-16 Onsight 5.6 Spare Ribs
2004-05-14 Red Point 5.9 Happy Face
2004-05-05 Top Rope 5.8 Slice Of The Gunks
2004-05-05 Top Rope
2004-05-05 Top Rope 5.10c Route Awakening
2004-05-01 Top Rope 5.9 Wheaties
2004-05-01 Top Rope 5.10b Attitude Adjuster
2004-04-30 Red Point 5.4 Easy Stuff
2004-03-12 Red Point 5.8 Itching to Climb
2003-11-14 Hang Dog 5.9 They Died Laughing
2003-11-14 Hang Dog 5.8 Mantleshelf
2003-09-27 Top Rope 5.8 Alley Fox
2003-09-14 Hang Dog 5.9 Hard Stuff
2003-09-14 Red Point 5.9 Happy Face
2003-08-03 Red Point 5.6 Neophyte Delight
2003-07-04 Flash 5.10b Puss in Boots
2003-07-04 Red Point 5.9 Orange Sunshine
2003-07-04 Top Rope
2003-07-04 Flash 5.7 Dancing Nancy
2003-04-20 Onsight 5.5 Pried and Joy
2003-04-12 Top Rope 5.7 Foxy Lady
2003-04-12 Onsight 5.8 Upside Down Staircase

Sorry, I should have said "roller skates." That shit would be way too easy in swim fins. HaHa. fucking poseur.

Curt

I've been into climbing for a couple of years now, I havent been able to go NEARLY as often as I'd like too, and because of this, I'm not an expert cimber. However the community that I climb with happens to be supportive and FRIENDLY, If this is the way that you are on a regular basis, I hope I never run into you at a crag. Thanks!

Well, I don't climb much in Indiana--so, you're probably safe. However, I'm not sure why you prefer people who are supportive and friendly, but stupid--over those who could actually help you. It's your choice I suppose...

Curt

How is it that his climbing community is stupid, Curt? Or are you just saying that you're smarter than everyone else?

Jim

I would never claim to be smarter than everyone else, Jim. I'm merely much more knowledgeable about climbing than all the gumbies, grommets, n00bs and other wannabes (like you) here. At least when I do hold myself out as an expert on this site, I have almost 30 years of climbing experience at a fairly high standard behind me--thousands of routes of all kinds, all over the world. Because of that (in part) I have a pretty good fundamental understanding of how most climbing stuff works.

You, on the other hand, routinely attempt to give climbing advice to others when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have no meaningful climbing experience and no real climbing ability. All you "know" about climbing comes from what you either read or heard from some other "expert" climber.

Unfortunately, for both yourself and those who may unwittingly read the drivel you post here, your utter lack of experience denies you the critical ability to differentiate between what information that you either read or heard is correct from that which is incorrect. Thus, even if on a rare occasion, you do post an answer that is correct, you have absolutely no idea "why" it is correct. You are nothing more than a horrible example of what not to do on an internet forum. Please stop embarrassing yourself by impersonating a real rock climber on the internet.

Spend your time more productively, psyching yourself up for that next 5.5 redpoint.

Curt

"Why" is a question I ask myself about each thing I learn.

...If our paths ever cross I would have no hesitation to challenge you on any technical system/ anchor/ technique related to recreational climbing and rescue...

Your useless negative posts on here have contributed nothing, nor given me any insight into what it is you do or don't know about climbing systems...

I have no reason to think you know half of the skills I do...

If it took you 30 years to figure out how a climbing shoe works, then I genuinely feel bad for you.

If your going to pull punches and try to insult me...at least try and be original, and pick something I actually might care about. You think I really care about what grade I climb at?

You obviously have no understanding of me, and why it is that I climb.

It's pretty sad when someone with your "depth of experience" is still caught up in the game of numbers.

You think I really care about what grade I climb at

It's pretty sad when someone with your "depth of experience" is still caught up in the game of numbers.

Obviously you do not.


Climbing is inherently about challenging yourself. Now, once you've successfully met a challenge, unless you up the stakes a notch, then you are no longer challenging yourself, and you have consigned yourself to mediocrity. Everybody starts in this sport for the challenge. However, some forget why they started, get comfortable with what they know they can do, and stop challenging themselves. These climbers inevitably rationalize that their motivation lies elsewhere. Often they become experts at safety systems; become obsessed with gear; claim they just want to go sight seeing when they climb; want to with hang out with friends; blah, blah, blah. That this is self-delusion is apparent from the fact that any of these goals could be met while remaining safely on the ground.

So, climbing is about ever upping the challenge. For most, it is about climbing harder routes (mediocre climbers disparagingly call this "number chasing"). It can be about other physical and mental challenges too, but usually it's about difficulty.

In no other sport I can think of do mediocre participants attempt to claim that, by virtue of their mediocrity, they are morally superior to those who desire to improve. Gymnasts don't think, "I'm happy with scoring an 8.8 on the bars; anyone who aspires to a 9.0 or 10.0 is 'just chasing numbers'."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being satisfied with climbing at a mediocre level. What is wrong is to claim that those who want to improve are morally or aesthetically inferior, which is what your reference to "the game of numbers" in your post implies.

Jay

You haven't yet learned anything--not in any real sense, anyway.


Your incompetence is exceeded only by your delusional sense of your own abilities. Although it would be good fun to watch you whimper and cry, I'd rather free-solo than ever climb routes with you. In any real emergency, all you could possibly do is try to figure out which book to consult. I take dumps that know more about climbing than you; plus, most of my dumps are less irritating and offensive than you.


Sadly, it isn't possible to impart any insight to a largely vacuous intellect.


Once again, it is obvious that (in your own mind) you are some towering figure in the world of climbing. That's why people have written all about you, in numerous books concerning the history of climbing in the United States, right? Oh that's right, they haven't. Guess what? No one ever will. You will never, ever be confused with a competent climber by people who actually know what's up. You're merely a miserable little fuck who only reads climbing books and takes climbing classes.


Again, a complete climbing bumbly, such as yourself, is in no position to explain how anything works to anyone here at RC.com--except perhaps how you prefer to choke your own chicken. There, I can believe you do have plenty of practical experience.


If I sucked real hard, like you, I'd probably make a claim like that too--it's really about the best you can do under the circumstances of being weak, untalented and unskilled.


That's true enough. Usually people don't stick with something they suck at. You're an anomaly.


I think it's far sadder that your own "depth of experience" is really nothing more than the armchair quarterback variety, having basically no climbing experience or talent. Now go read another book on climbing so you can come back here and post about something else you don't actually understand.

Curt

...their rep on here treats people like shit...I put a thread up about this a while back. titled "madrock: the user and the brand" you can find it if this interests you.

I won't buy from companies that have bad customer service, so I won't touch MR shoes. My Flashes climbed well enough, but my Evolv's work a lot better...

...I think Mad Rock makes a terrific shoe for the money. Their Formula 5 rubber is perhaps the stickiest climbing shoe rubber on the market at higher temperature ranges. Whereas various tests have shown most climbing shoe rubber (C4, Vibram, etc.) to have maximum friction at around 50 degrees, F, the Mad Rock rubber has maximal friction in the 65 to 85 degree F range.

I particularly like the new, redesigned (gray colored) Mad Rock Phoenix shoe. They are extremely comfortable, slightly more aggressive than the old Phoenix and don't turn my feet yellow. They're a great all-around shoe, and work well on friction, pockets, edges and most anything else--at least up through V8 and 5.12 climbing. Beyond that, you'll have to ask someone else...

Shame on you 2. Especially you Curt. As a mod I'd think you'd know better. Maybe someone with some sense can delete your posts for you...

akaerik21 has a total of 5 posts and asks a simple question about mad rock shoes. He really just wants some information. Jims first post wasn't read as a huge slam Curt, just simple truths he thinks about the shoes, until you engaged him. Shame on you both...

It's like you are trying to show each other who has the biggest dick, but I'll surprise you by saying that to everybody reading this - your stupid, pointless, drivel -laden, tit-for-tat arguement, controversy, contention, contestation, disputation or whatever it is: shows that neither of you really have dicks. Or manners. Good on Joe (Madrock) for showing up and trying to answer the question without being sucked into a stupid, putrid, disgusting, revolting, nauseating and pointless yawing black hole display of ignorance.

Thanks--I'm quite proud of that one. Oh, by the way, they were Merrells, Jim. Only a fucking lunatic would try to belay with Reeboks.

And how nice of you to chime in with a post that only digs that hole just a little bit deeper. I don't see any useful information about Mad Rock shoes in your post anywhere, Bill. It's actually pretty funny that you choose to post a personal attack aimed at me as means of criticising personal attack posting. I think that's called the pot calling the kettle black.

Curt

<snip> The shoes get too lose at just a half size down, and will give me "farting" noises (for a lack of a better term) when I come off the rocks onto the ground.<snip>

We (now just me) could have used that information earlier. Thanks!

Anyone looking for a new partner. I got all the gear. I just need to get some new belay shoes.

we could charge people money to read this thread and make out like bandits.
nothing better then watching 2 grown men going "i know you are but what am i!?"

I have fixed that issue:

Mail your checks to:
Bill Coe
The couch by the fire under the rock at the back
Beacon Rock, WA USA

Trying to help out anyway I can.

BTW, edited to add, just stumbled over this pic and of all the damn things to find: so in a further attempt to help my brothers here: hese is the famous issue of Hot Belayer magazine with the famous Curt Shannon foot belay, you decide if it really was a Merril or not.

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...00/6299Belayer_3.jpg

Nice picture--and they are Merrells, dammit all. Also, Jim and I better get a decent percentage of the gate, for providing the entertainment value here.

Curt

That's a fair question, Jim. In all honesty, you could actually know what you're talking about, but just hide it extremely well.

Curt

My Australian Cattle Dog challenges my intelligence more than you do, Jim. ...
Curt

Shame on you 2. Especially you Curt. As a mod I'd think you'd know better. Maybe someone with some sense can delete your posts for you.

akaerik21 has a total of 5 posts and asks a simple question about mad rock shoes. He really just wants some information. Jims first post wasn't read as a huge slam Curt, just simple truths he thinks about the shoes, until you engaged him. Shame on you both.

It's like you are trying to show each other who has the biggest dick, but I'll surprise you by saying that to everybody reading this - your stupid, pointless, drivel -laden, tit-for-tat arguement, controversy, contention, contestation, disputation or whatever it is: shows that neither of you really have dicks. Or manners.

Good on Joe (Madrock) for showing up and trying to answer the question without being sucked into a stupid, putrid, disgusting, revolting, nauseating and pointless yawing black hole display of ignorance.

akaerik21, there's some wheat in the chaff inbewteen up there thats good info. Getting a good pair of shoes that fit you and make you happy would be #1 on the list. Good luck to the roomate.

BYW:

I've been wanting to try an Acopa shoe, mostly to help out Bachar, but haven't had a need for a new shoe, people seem to like them.