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climbsomething
Jan 4, 2007, 3:03 AM
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This thread is regarding this photo posted by my friend Aimee.
You will notice that Aimee is pregnant. She is wearing a full body harness, leading a route she has done countless times that's about 3 full number grades below her redpoint limit.
Yet the local yokels, who are so far only men (as best I can tell), are tearing into her, calling her a pig and saying the pic is the stupidest thing they've ever seen on this site (ha).
I know Aimee. I know she's very excited to have this baby. I also know she's educated, has been climbing for years (as hard as 5.13), and works in the medical profession. Don't you think she knows a few things about climbing and the human body (especially her own), and is way more qualified than anybody else about how to make her own uniquely personal choices?
Tiffany Campbell, Bobbi Bensman and Lynn Hill were documented in the climbing glossies as cranking well into their pregnancies. Would you call them pigs or accuse them of being stupid?
Aimee is 7 mos along right now and has since stopped leading. Of course there are risks to climbing while pregnant and she is aware of them (there are also a'plenty for climbing while non-pregnant and/or stupid, though that doesn't seem to stop most). She's a smart and feisty girl, and I know she doesn't need my shine, but she also doesn't need a bunch of presumptuous tards telling her what to do.
I'm proud of any pregnant lady who continues to responsibly pursue per passionate active lifestyle and doesn't use pregnancy as an excuse to hit a wall. She and her baby are doing a lot more than many non-pregnant people will ever do (and they look good doing it too!)
So... there! Yeah.
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mushroomsamba
Jan 4, 2007, 3:08 AM
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ahmen.
more power to her for climbing pregnant. There was a picture of a pregnant woman bouldering in Urban climber a few issues ago. wish I could tell you which or find the pic.
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dr_feelgood
Jan 4, 2007, 3:08 AM
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Cheers!!!!
To beer and pregnancy!
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112
Jan 4, 2007, 3:29 AM
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I am all for her climbing while pregnant. I am not sure how I feel about her leading though. Regardless, I hope she is lucky enough to experiance orgasim during delivery!
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gblauer
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Jan 4, 2007, 3:46 AM
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Aimee...you go girl! (If I was a climber when I was having children I would have done the same)
Best wishes for a wonderful birth experience.
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pixelguru
Jan 4, 2007, 3:54 AM
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I showed the photo to my wife, who is due in May. Her comment is that, while she'd love to be able to climb right now, her "protect the baby" hormones would make it very difficult. I suspect that Aimee's own internal instincts would have kicked in if she attempted something too risky. For her to be this comfortable climbing at 5 months, she must really be an awesome climber.
Beautiful photo.
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angusmacginny
Jan 4, 2007, 3:55 AM
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Thats fucking rad!
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reno
Jan 4, 2007, 4:08 AM
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climbsomething wrote: Of course there are risks to climbing while pregnant and she is aware of them... I'm proud of any pregnant lady who continues to responsibly pursue...
Emphasis mine.
Kudos to her for keeping an active lifestyle while pregnant. Much good science documenting benefits to exercise while preggers.
Emphasis added for a reason: Get with a good OB/GYN, talk to him or her about exercise, and follow good advice. There are some situations where pregnant females should NOT exercise. Get a good doctor, talk to them, and get a second opinion. And make smart decisions.
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overlord
Jan 4, 2007, 8:03 AM
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well, i guess the men are tearing into her because she climbs harder than they do... pregnant
man, that has to suck, to be a spraylord and have a pregnant woman do laps on your proj. that has to be the worst part of number chasing, actually meeting someone that is better, even worse, better while being pregnant and offcourse that means that that person lacks something youve got, so you cant compensate with comparing 'manhood' either.
kudos to her. she has my total support.
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crackrn
Jan 4, 2007, 8:06 AM
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Way to back your friend. And Thhppttttthhhtt! to the naysayers without a clue.
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acollins
Jan 4, 2007, 8:46 AM
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I just want to say. I'm all for her climbing while pregnant. Even pregnant i'm sure she can climb much harder than I can. Being a single guy I have not idea what being pregnant does to your body and glad I don't have to find out but i'm sure most women would not do anything they thought might hurt their baby. I think climbing has to be much better for the baby than smoking or drinking but many women do that when pregnant and I don't agree with that at all.
Keep climbing girl!
My only question is where do you find beautiful women who climb? I'm in need of a girlfriend who can hang in there with me and be active. Most of them are too worried about how they look to get them out on the rocks. I'm all for women who go beyond what is expected of them!
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my_name_is_fake
Jan 4, 2007, 9:47 AM
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I dont know the whether a fall from leading will pose a significant risk to the mother & baby. I suppose your friend has made an informed decision to do lead and has consulted her doctor. If she has and is aware of the risk, more power to her.
If it was my gf/wife, i would advise her not to lead though. Maybe indoor TR.
To each their own.
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thomasribiere
Jan 4, 2007, 11:58 AM
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climbsomething wrote: I also know she's educated, has been climbing for years (as hard as 5.13), and works in the medical profession. Don't you think she knows a few things about climbing and the human body (especially her own), and is way more qualified than anybody else about how to make her own uniquely personal choices?
I've seen many girls TRing during pregnancy, but leaders are seldom in my experience.
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epoch
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Jan 4, 2007, 12:06 PM
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Ulitmately it was her choice and I would assume an educated one. While the risks are ever present while pregnant it is good to see that she was in a full-body harness. I wouldn't advise that any woman lead after starting the third trimester. I went through this with my wife when she was pregnant, and although she doesn't lead she did climb to her third trimester. We had consulted an OB who was also a climber and had two children herself and were told about all of the risks involved.
To the OP: I would ignore the banter from the guys at the crag. While they may taunt with good intentions they, ultimately, are not responsible for her. And props for leading at the 5 month mark. Anytime after that, I would reccomend that she take up the practice of following, no matter how much it annoys her.
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ebonezercabbage
Jan 4, 2007, 1:33 PM
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Go her for climbing. But as a guy, if she was my wife i'd ask her not to climb while pregnant....just seems like an aweful big risk......
p.s. When did we get the power to put pictures in threads again? must have missed that....bring back the worst photos thread!
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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 2:24 PM
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Thats great and all, but IMO, still Stupid. But it's not my baby so I don't give a shit.
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 2:35 PM
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I stand by what I said, this is absolutely ridiculous. This is about the only point in anyone's life where I believe other people have to be involved in telling someone what is good for them, because it is not just effecting them. Saying she knows her body and limitations is shear arrogance. I do believe she should keep doing what she loves and stay active, but if she cant not lead climb for 9 months for the sake of her unborn child then maybe she should reconsider how she's going to treat her baby... In my opinion this is outrageous that anyone could defend someone doing something so stupid.
I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 2:43 PM
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I'm not sure why so many climbers are so afraid of things they haven't seen before. But, I'm not one of those, thankfully. Good on ya, Aimeerose. Sounds like you're plenty smart enough to make good choices. If only my mom had been climbing when she was pregnant with me! Think of the possibilities! 
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angusmacginny
Jan 4, 2007, 3:29 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I stand by what I said, this is absolutely ridiculous. This is about the only point in anyone's life where I believe other people have to be involved in telling someone what is good for them, because it is not just effecting them. Saying she knows her body and limitations is shear arrogance. I do believe she should keep doing what she loves and stay active, but if she cant not lead climb for 9 months for the sake of her unborn child then maybe she should reconsider how she's going to treat her baby... In my opinion this is outrageous that anyone could defend someone doing something so stupid. I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
GFY! Its too bad assholes like you dont spend more time thinking about yourselves. Your ass bad as the religious right who see it fit to tell people what they should and should not be doing.
STFU
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 3:30 PM
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My wife climbed pregnant. I belayed her.
The list of men who think that they have provence over what goes on inside a woman's body is a very very very long list.
This has nothing to do with climbing. If she dares anything even remotely risky there will be self-righteous men (like one or two in this thread) who feel it is their business to tell her what to do.
It is about the control of women. As I smile at my wife and daughters this morning it comforts me greatly that NONE OF YOU MEN WILL EVER HAVE SAY OVER WHAT GOES ON IN MY DAUGHTER'S BODIES, not EVER.
Animal Farm never changes. New equipment, new techniques and still we have with:
All people are equal. Its just that some of us are a lot more equal than others.
DMT
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vertical_planar
Jan 4, 2007, 3:34 PM
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Amazing post... A textbook example of how political correctness and flaming can mingle together in a perfect mix...
Seriously now, I think your post is way more provocative that then comments on the photograph. Everyone is entitled to have his own opinion etc etc...Its easy to see why climbing during pregnacy sounds irresponsible if not stupid to some.
It¢s a matter of perception so chill out a bit otherwise you sound like the idiot who called this girl a pig
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keinangst
Jan 4, 2007, 3:50 PM
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Why does everyone trot out the old "congrats" or "it's her body, she can do what she wants" with issues like this? We're not talking about some morality issue (say, abortion).
Meanwhile, we always talk about whether to stop people from doing dangerous things at the crag. Well, if everything goes perfectly, this is fine. If she takes a nasty whipper and hits the wall at a bad angle, it might not be.
I had a teacher way back in middle school that was bumped into by a kid running around a corner. She miscarried a few hours later. Would everyone supporting this decision feel the same if the baby were an infant and strapped to her body instead? Because I see it as the exact same thing--putting someone at undue risk without their consent. "Hey, I just love climbing so much, I could never go without it under any circumstances!"
Forget congrats. This is plain stupid and selfish.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 4:06 PM
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keinangst wrote: Would everyone supporting this decision feel the same if the baby were an infant and strapped to her body instead? Because I see it as the exact same thing--putting someone at undue risk without their consent.
This is the core argument of course. No I would not feel exactly the same if she strapped an infant to her chest and climbed with it. Its not the same thing at all, not even remotely the same.
You simply have no provence over a woman's body or reproductive organs, period. Time to come to grips with that... it is none of your business.
DMT
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zeke_sf
Jan 4, 2007, 4:14 PM
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dog vs. fetus: which would you rather see at the crag?
seriously though, I had a gym partner who climbed some months into her pregnancy before having a miscarriage. she has since had a child. what does climbing have to do with this? probably nothing, but I can honestly say I've never been so nervous belaying somebody in my life. kudos to Dingus for belaying his wife into her pregnancy, but, to you preggos, please don't ask others to be your backdoor belay man.
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microbarn
Jan 4, 2007, 4:14 PM
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It would be interesting to see how people's views aligned on abortion and climbing pregnant. I am pro choice on both issues.
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scrapedape
Jan 4, 2007, 4:16 PM
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dingus wrote: You simply have no provence over a woman's body or reproductive organs, period. Time to come to grips with that... it is none of your business. DMT
As much as she has a right to climb while pregnant, folks have a right to call her decision foolish. She doesn't have to listen, and probably isn't.
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 4:16 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I stand by what I said, this is absolutely ridiculous. This is about the only point in anyone's life where I believe other people have to be involved in telling someone what is good for them, because it is not just effecting them. Saying she knows her body and limitations is shear arrogance. I do believe she should keep doing what she loves and stay active, but if she cant not lead climb for 9 months for the sake of her unborn child then maybe she should reconsider how she's going to treat her baby... In my opinion this is outrageous that anyone could defend someone doing something so stupid. I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
So what are you waiting for? Call the police.
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microbarn
Jan 4, 2007, 4:17 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: backdoor belay man.
three innocent words that trigger crazy pictures and obscene thoughts....they made me snicker like a 2nd grader
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angry
Jan 4, 2007, 4:17 PM
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It looks like a closely bolted sport climb with a clean fall too. She's wearing a full body harness to counter her change in center of gravity.
What more could you ask?
Hillary said this woman has climbed as hard as 5.13. She's on a 10b. It wouldn't bother me to see this woman free-solo this route. She's not going to fall.
I'm not a pregnant woman but I free solo route 3 number grades easier than my hardest redpoints wearing approach shoes and a backpack, and it's still easy. This woman is in no danger, neither is the kid.
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lena_chita
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Jan 4, 2007, 4:19 PM
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Nothing brings out the unwanted strangers advice as much as a pregnancy does.
People who normally wouldn't dream of patting your shoulder try to pat you on the belly. 
Random old ladies in the restaurant look at your plate and try to tell you that you shouldn't be eating this or that.
Your MIL calls to tell you that carrying groceries from the car will cause you hernia at least ,if not immediate miscarriage...
There is nothing to do except smile politely, say "thank you for your opinion", and continue with what you are doing if you and your doctor believe this to be safe. But you can't stop people from having opinions, and if you are doing something that is perceived to be dangerous, you can be sure that you will be told so, by many people, with excessive amount of force, LOL.
I have heard many times that pretty much any activity that you were proficient at before the pregnancy can be safely continued well into pregnancy-- including horse-back riding, bicycling, etc. So why not climbing?
But I personally would not feel safe leading or bouldering while pregnant at all, and would probably not even toprope after 5-6 months pg. But then again, I have personal experience with placental abruption... So I admit that I have followed Aimee's posts in the ladies room with a mixed feelings of 'wow, she is amazing' and 'Gosh, I sure hope nothing bad happens to the baby, I think she is pushing a bit too far'.
But my thoughts aside, I still think it is up to Aimee and her child's father to joinlty decide how far is too far and how safe is acceptable, and no one else has any busness of telling them what to do.
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camhead
Jan 4, 2007, 4:38 PM
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I have a good friend who is about four months along; she has made the personal decision to only toprope routes; no leading. This is what she is comfortable with, and it is her (and her husband's) choice to make. Nothing more.
In a way, this whole debate is a strange combination of the national debate on fetal rights/abortion, and the never-ending "beat a dead horse" debate amongst climbers on free-soloing/personal responsibility.
And my personal view on this photo controversy is the same as my view on fetal rights-- it is the woman's choice to make. Nobody has a right to call Amy on what she can or can't do, except perhaps her husband. It's none of our business. It's that simple.
Hey Amy, I think I've run into you and Kyle(?) at Hueco and Redrocks a couple times. Best of luck; and it is way cool that you have easy access to a route as classic and moderate as "Mr.Slate" to climb on while preggers. One of the best 5.10s in the world, for serious.
(Does anyone remember that photo a few years back of Kitty Calhoun on a moderate ice route, carrying her baby?)
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aimeerose
Jan 4, 2007, 4:39 PM
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That's right, angry, I could have free soloed this climb. There was no way I was going to fall on it, hence I was leading it. I have literally done this climb hundreds of times. I stopped leading anything I had the potential to fall on as soon as I knew I was pregnant! I even took a month climbing trip to spain and led one climb the whole time. I was hardly showing (not needing the body harness yet) and it was frustrating following some of the overhanging climbs, but that was the right decision in my opinion.
It's not arrogant to say I know my limits. After climbing for 10 years I think it's ignorant to say I wouldn't. Sorry I climb harder than you preggo, jonzoclimber. I did do 3 11s the other day without falling at 7 months pregnant (hmm, seems a 10b at 5 months was probably safe, huh?)
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 4:41 PM
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scrapedape wrote: True, but calling it stupid, selfish, reckless, etc is not the same thing as saying she should be banned by law from doing it. Expressing your view is different from imposing your morality.
Point taken and agreed - so long as your viewpoint isn't calling for imposing your morality on someone else that is.
Cheers
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Jan 4, 2007, 4:41 PM)
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murf
Jan 4, 2007, 4:45 PM
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angry wrote: I'm not a pregnant woman but I free solo route 3 number grades easier than my hardest redpoints wearing approach shoes and a backpack, and it's still easy. This woman is in no danger, neither is the kid.
angry, you forgot to mention how your totally hot girlfriend would solo OW no matter her condition.
(This post was edited by murf on Jan 4, 2007, 4:54 PM)
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murf
Jan 4, 2007, 4:47 PM
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aimeerose wrote: That's right, angry, I could have free soloed this climb. There was no way I was going to fall on it, hence I was leading it. I have literally done this climb hundreds of times. I stopped leading anything I had the potential to fall on as soon as I knew I was pregnant! I even took a month climbing trip to spain and led one climb the whole time. I was hardly showing (not needing the body harness yet) and it was frustrating following some of the overhanging climbs, but that was the right decision in my opinion.
So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it?
-Murf
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 4:48 PM
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^ Might make certain crack widths easier.
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jabtocrag
Jan 4, 2007, 4:54 PM
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aimeerose wrote: ...There was no way I was going to fall on it...
To say this is simply foolish at best. Perhaps "falling was highly unlikely" is what you meant...and hopefully thought at the time.
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 4:58 PM
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dingus wrote: keinangst wrote: Would everyone supporting this decision feel the same if the baby were an infant and strapped to her body instead? Because I see it as the exact same thing--putting someone at undue risk without their consent. This is the core argument of course. No I would not feel exactly the same if she strapped an infant to her chest and climbed with it. Its not the same thing at all, not even remotely the same. You simply have no provence over a woman's body or reproductive organs, period. Time to come to grips with that... it is none of your business. DMT
For me, the pro-choice aspect goes out the window here because the "choice" has been made, it seems she wants to have the child. So, to me, this has little to do with reproductive organs and rights, it has to do with motherhood and beginning to take accountability for additional responsibilities. Frankly, the pro-choice rhetoric reads just as pedantic as the patriachal pedagoguery.
Climbing is an inherently selfish pursuit, for many a moral line or a selfishness boundary is violated when we put others at risk because of our climbing pursuits. Although it's a vastly different situation, in some ways the debate regarding the man who died soloing everest is applicable here - many justify not helping him because his goal was far too selfish, too many risks. I think, in this case, people are also simply concerned about the risks to both mother and child.
In the end, my reaction is similar to Lena-chita's, although from a man's perspective. Yes, it's amazing that she is doing that. But, would I want my wife leading at that stage of pregnancy? At the very least, we would talk about the risks before she tied in. It wouldn't be just her decision because the baby would be ours. The fact of the matter is that it's more than likely some for of this conversation occured given the fact that she's wearing a body harness and climbing a dialed route.
On a broader note, I was watching PBS last night and saw a piece on Anne Leibovitz, the photographer who photographed Demi Moore pregnant and nude on the cover of Vanity Fair. It seems that the combination of pregnancy and femininity, motherhood and womanhood is a chemistry of archetypes that tends toward explosiveness. This could be because of our bipolar political environment, because of deep-seated Freudian concerns, or simply deeply engrained cultural metaphors. The point is that, whether right or wrong, people are going to react strongly to this sort of photograph therefore it's fool-hardy to condemn the reaction while absolving the photographer and subject. The two are inextricably linked.
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ebonezercabbage
Jan 4, 2007, 5:00 PM
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microbarn wrote: It would be interesting to see how people's views aligned on abortion and climbing pregnant. I am pro choice on both issues.
I am choice on abortion. But if i am the father, i say i get an equal share of say for what happens to my children and their well being. I think climbing, especially leading, while pregnant is irresponsible. There are too many risk factors. Its not about controling women, its about the saftey of my child.
Plus i think this compare abortion to climbing thing is stupid. This is a risk factor we're talking about, not ending life. I'd put climbing while pregnant on the same level of drinking or smoking while pregnant. Maybe nothing will happen if you those things, but it sure puts a gigantic unnecessary risk on the life of my child. ( in her body or not, its OURS)
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zeke_sf
Jan 4, 2007, 5:12 PM
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murf wrote: So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it? -Murf
When stirring the pot, make sure none of the ingredients settle. Scrape the bottom so they do not coagulate.
Somebody needs to reshoot or photoshop this photo with some key changes: pro abortion shirt, hip flask, back clipped, swami belt, single fisherman's knot as the tiein point to a triaxial loaded biner, and Aimee, instead of climbing, is mean mugging the camera while hanging one-handed off a jug, feet off, flipping the bird at the camera, the cigarrette dangling off her lips casting oil well plumes of smoke.
I can't wait to climb Mr. Slate (moving to Arizona next year)!
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greenketch
Jan 4, 2007, 5:16 PM
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This will definatly reveal my "old timerness" but a few things that really need to be considered.
With my first kid it was considered totally inappropriate for a father to be in the delivery room. By the last I was in there describing it for my wife (this one was emergency C-section and she couldn't see past the drape). Her input was that she wished I had been there everytime.
Once upon a time pregnant woman were to never do manual labor in the third trimester. Only with one kid did I have to do everything and that only while she overcame a complication. All of the kids arrived in perfect condition.
I am sure you can see where this is going. Aimee I totally support what appears to be an informed decision. If someone has a valid supported non-wifes tail that you need to consider that's good too.
But for now Rock on girl.
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cchildre
Jan 4, 2007, 5:18 PM
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Funny, would this discussion be different we're she free soloing?
I support her choice to climb. For the jags hassling her, she should have denied her pregnacy and asked them if she really looked that fat. Really it isn't their business.
Riding in a car is pretty dangerous too. I think she should just stay at home with the door locked the entire term of her pregnacy, LMAO. Think if these guys had to deal with child birth themselves, anyone really think they would take an entire 9 months off? I just finised a six months stretch off from injury, and it was intolerable.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 5:28 PM
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sidepull wrote: For me, the pro-choice aspect goes out the window here because the "choice" has been made, it seems she wants to have the child.
Well for me it isn't about pro choice at all, its about 'its none of your business.'
Its her body, not yours. That's really it in a nutshell.
DMT
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 5:30 PM
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cchildre wrote: Funny, would this discussion be different we're she free soloing?
Probably from some. Wouldn't change my opinion.
DMT
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 5:54 PM
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its not an issue of legality or what not. I agree people have a right over their own body, but guess what... here she is taking risk on someone else's. Somehow when its a woman in the question men get in an uproar about defending their relationship with their wives/daughters/gfs what have you... its not about that, so stop making it that. It comes down to that she is irresponsible regardless of skill... flat out irresponsible.
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 6:01 PM
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fine, reduce the argument to you're better then me... who cares. My argument is that you should think more about your baby when doing something so inherently dangerous. I would not sugjest a professional race car driver should do the indy 500 prego either. I dont think you could disagree with that. I think your arrogance has clouded your judgement regardless of if you think you can fall or not. Accidents happen everyday to people even more qualified then you, I think YOU should think about YOUR actions and YOUR baby.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 6:09 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: It comes down to that she is irresponsible regardless of skill... flat out irresponsible.
It comes down to this... you are not the decider.
DMT
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 6:16 PM
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dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: For me, the pro-choice aspect goes out the window here because the "choice" has been made, it seems she wants to have the child. Well for me it isn't about pro choice at all, its about 'its none of your business.' Its her body, not yours. That's really it in a nutshell. DMT
Okay, I'm sorry I misinterpretted your words. However, it isn't just her choice at this point. I'm sure you would have a say if your wife were leading - correct?
Imagine for a moment what would have happened if she had fallen and, as a result miscarried. Imagine what the news stories would say. The people witnessing said event would feel a sense of responsibility. In fact, I'd bet that there were people there that day that felt the dichotomy Lena described above: "wow that's cool - but it makes me really, really nervous." The difference here is that the anonymity of the internet provides the false courage to speak up when others at the crag might just gawk at such a situation.
Finally, when the picture is featured on the front page of a climbing forum then others are going to offer their opinions - in a way she has made her private decision other's business. And, as I noted above, this type of photo is sure to create a buzz. So, although I'm pretty ambivalent about her choice to climb, I really don't agree with the OP's insistence that other's should back off with their critiques - those opinions (good and bad) were encouraged when the pic was posted.
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greenketch
Jan 4, 2007, 6:19 PM
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Jonzo, I understand your point. Let me share an addition bit for you to consider. When I was a brand new driver I was involved in an auto accident. Six weeks later a passengr in the other car miscarried. Where they related? I thought so but when I talked to a Dr to calm my own fears the answer was "Can't say, there is not enough data" Now here we are 40 years later and the jury is still out. There is not sufficient data and what does exist is conflicting. Some Dr's would say it's bad some would say go for it.
It seems from here that she was taking appropriate caution. I would also challenge you to produce any evidence that is bad under any circumstances. Maybe if she were pushing her physical limit, Maybe if she were pushing her skill limit, Maybe .........
But for now the jury is still out.
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 6:22 PM
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Hey baby's body isn't hers either. The whole point of being a mother is to be responsible for something other then yourself, and she is not being that. This is all way more of a big deal then I meant to make it originally, but I really am astonished by how many people could support something like this. It's not like driving a car, its ROCK CLIMBING. We all do it on this site, and know the average person cannot and even should not do it. It's 100% different from driving a car, but quite on par with driving a race car. I think you are all giving way too much credit to someone just because she thinks she's going to be fine. Nobody goes into a situation thinking they're going to get hurt.
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angry
Jan 4, 2007, 6:23 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: Accidents happen everyday to people even more qualified then you,
Would you mind referencing this. I would be interested in hearing about the daily accidents that happen to climbers of 5.13 skill or better.
It's not impossible but really, it's probably closer to 4-5 a year. Of those, I'd imagine none happened on 5.10 sport routes with a good belayer. Still, not impossible but an extremely long shot.
I would guess that most of the loud anti-climbing voices on this thread have not been climbing long enough to develop the skill to really trust themselves. There's a lot of people who never fall on 5.10 and don't know why, they just make it or they didn't get tired.
There's fewer that have complete awareness of their body and the rock. Those people seem reckless to you because they do what you can't comprehend, in reality, they are just climbing and expressing their skills. That's no different than what any climber does, but this is at a much higher level and it scares you.
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devils_advocate
Jan 4, 2007, 6:24 PM
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epoch wrote: jonzoclimber wrote: It comes down to that she is irresponsible regardless of skill... flat out irresponsible. The same sentiment can be made about getting behind the wheel of a car and going to work every day. It could kill her and/or her baby.
I think a better analogy is whether or not she is wearing a seatbelt when getting in that car.
She could be on toprope, and IMHO mitigate almost all risk to the baby. Sure, TR isn't leading, but at least she could do some climbing, get some exercise, and scratch that itch a bit.
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reno
Jan 4, 2007, 6:35 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I think YOU should think about YOUR actions and YOUR baby.
Dude, you're making the assumption that she has not thought about her actions, then finding her guilty of that assumption.
The level of thought that she has or has not put into climbing while pregnant is....
... wait for it.....
....
None of your damn business. Ain't your stomach, ain't your baby, ain't your place to judge.
Now, I'd love to hear you talk more about what it's like to be a mother of a child. That should be interesting.
(This post was edited by reno on Jan 4, 2007, 6:37 PM)
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 6:35 PM
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sidepull wrote: I'm sure you would have a say if your wife were leading - correct?
The only say I have or have ever had about what my wife does with her body is the one she grants me. I don't get to insist on a voice, nor would I. Basically if she decided to do as Amy and I didn't like it? She would proceed without my consent, and god bless her for it. I might not like it but I would celebrate her self-determination.
She's a strong woman, Mrs Milktoast. She's married to me, she has to be! Me and my kids are so lucky she puts up with us. I hope (and trust) her daughters will grow up with the same independence and backbone.
In reply to: Imagine for a moment what would have happened if she had fallen and, as a result miscarried. Imagine what the news stories would say.
I can't imagine what it must be like for a woman to suffer a miscarriage as a result of her own actions. I can't empathize with that personal Hell. Speculating is pointless however.
In reply to: I really don't agree with the OP's insistence that other's should back off with their critiques - those opinions (good and bad) were encouraged when the pic was posted.
A good point.
Just to clarify when I say 'its none of our business' I'm talking about the woman's authority over her own body. We don't get to decide her level of responsibility nor should we in this case. She'
s not smoking crack so far as I know, just climbing them! I would certainly trust this Amy person's (don't know her, never met her and like as not, never will) decision over that of some dude a million miles away.
Cheers sidey!
DMT
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 6:37 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: The whole point of being a mother is to be responsible for something other then yourself, and she is not being that.
You don't know the first thing about being a mother and never ever will.
DMT
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zip_ty
Jan 4, 2007, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: It comes down to this... you are not the decider.
I'm the decider!
Okay back on topic. I had that issue of Urban Climber showing the pregnant lady bouldering. I may still have it at home and I can find out which issue it is at lunch.
Everybody is different. Their level of acceptable risk is different as well. To me, free soloing el cap is not an acceptable risk, at this time. For Dean Potter it is. For you climbing while pregnant is not an acceptable risk. For her it is. She's not breaking any laws by climbing and she'll have some very cool stories to tell her child later in life.
Agree or disagree, it doesn't really matter. We can spray all day about how we would or wouldn't do it but in the end it's already done. In the realm of potentially bad decisions a pregnant woman could possibly make this is relatively low on the list.
Climb on Climbah!
Edited to add:
According to the courts (I'll try to find the case later) a father has no say in what happens with his unborn child. A man tried to sue a woman who decided to abort their child without discussing it with him first. The case was thrown out because ultimately it is HER decision.
(This post was edited by zip_ty on Jan 4, 2007, 6:50 PM)
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climbsomething
Jan 4, 2007, 7:06 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I think YOU should think about YOUR actions and YOUR baby.
Oh, what's that? You're not Aimee? What? You're not carrying a baby? Is that because, um, you're a man and will never be pregnant?
And if anything's arrogant, it's thinking the opinion of an ignorant jackass who has reduced himself to taking swipes at an unknown woman's fitness to be a mother should matter.
Clown.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Jan 4, 2007, 7:10 PM)
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ebonezercabbage
Jan 4, 2007, 7:22 PM
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"what about driving a car? thats dangerous"
"i think it would be more like driving a race car"
I DEF AGREE
"you will never be a mother nor have any idea what being one is like"
BUT I DO know what being a father is like. I may not have any legal right to that unborn baby, i would be furious if my wife climbed while she was pregnant.
I think most dads would too. A REAL ( responsible) father doesn't go out of his way to endanger his children. Same should go for mommy.
p.s. Now that i am thinking about it, it seems kind of wrong that that father who tried to sue his wife didn't have any legal rights....Why dont we have legal rights while shes pregnant but then we have legal ( financial ) responsibility after its born? I would venture ( in my own opinion ) that "parenting" starts the moment the woman decides to proceed with pregnancy. But alas, this is a topic for a different website.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 7:27 PM
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ebonezercabbage wrote: Why dont we have legal rights while shes pregnant but then we have legal ( financial ) responsibility after its born?
Her body, her risk, her decision. When you carry a baby to term you get to decide what goes on in your body too.
DMT
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wonderwoman
Jan 4, 2007, 7:31 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
Was your mom a climber, by any chance?
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ranther
Jan 4, 2007, 7:36 PM
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Wow this is getting heated.
I would like to second Dingus's comments. You are spot on.
I will say that I would be a trite nervous if my wife climbed while pregnant but would support her in whatever decision she made.
zip_ty wrote: I had that issue of Urban Climber showing the pregnant lady bouldering.
Check Aimee's pics on her profile: 7 months pregnant bouldering. I didn't want to link it without her permission.
Aimee & Kyle - all the best with the delivery.
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coppertone
Jan 4, 2007, 7:54 PM
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I have read this thread with great interest. I am a guy and this is a decision that my wife made when she was pregnant with our first child. She chose not to climb while pregnant. She made this decision after discussing it with our doctor. My wife was very nervous about taking any unnecessary risks with our baby. Our doctor who is not conservative by any means thought that TRing into the second trimester was ok but that leading was risky. She also thought that climbing at all would be an unnecessary risk once into the third trimester. Any harness, even a body harness will put external pressures on your waist and/or abdomen. Any fall which would normally be inconsequential could cause problems. Our doctor did encourage my wife to continue with other activities which she did do including weight training(although with significantly lighter weights, eliptical training, stretching, etc) My wife was actually hiking the day that she went into labor(no pack, melo trail). Personally I was happy that she chose not to take these risks. Our daughter always comes first. It is my opinion and only my opinoin that any lead climbing while pregnant is a bad idea and that climbing into the third trimester is also not a good idea. This is my opinion and has nothing to do with Aimee or any other womens choice to do as they please. For those telling Aimee what to do(as opposed to what they think), it is none of your business, but likewise for those of you telling people that think this is a bad idea to shut up or that they point of view is not valid becasue they will never be a mother is just plain silly.
I have seen alot of people that have kids and make the kids conform to their lifestyles. The choice to have kids is big decision and an even bigger responsibility. It is a decision that should be make knowing that your life and what you do is going to change to some degree. You should always put the best interests of your child in front your own irregardless if this cramps or alters your prior lifestyle. My wife and I have made the decisions that we thought were best for the well being and safety of our daughter, and these decisions obviously differ from what others think is right. I just can't imagine the feelings of guilt or remorse involved in dealing with a decision that caused harm to ones child.
I also think that saying others have climbed and led deep into their pregnancies and are fine is rediculous. That is like saying my mother drank and smoked while pregnant and i turned out fine, so it must be ok. In addition women such as Bobbi Bensman barely climb anymore but chose to spend time which with her daughters in activities that interest them.
I wish the best to Aimee and good luck.
(This post was edited by coppertone on Jan 4, 2007, 7:58 PM)
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devils_advocate
Jan 4, 2007, 8:01 PM
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well written coppertone
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 8:11 PM
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caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: ^ Might make certain crack widths easier. Sounds like aid!
Remind you of anything?
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jsj42
Jan 4, 2007, 8:15 PM
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Well said coppertone.
This is a fascinating thread! It's becoming so heated I keep expecting philbox to come in and censor or something.
It's humorous to me how climbsomething and aimee's defense of their position to Jonzo differs from DMT's defense: They tend to just attack him ad hominem (for example calling him a wimpy climber) whereas DMT actually tries to argue a point:
Aimee alone knows how she feels and Aimee alone has the right to make her own choices (forgive me, Dingus, for the paraphrase). I think this point is valid but I don't think that some of the things Jonzo is arguing is necessarily contradictory.
To expand on that, Jonzo's argument that leading while pregnant is irresponsible is based on the assumption that an unborn baby is an actual living individual. Whether or not you believe that, Dingus' argument holds true: If a fetus is still a part of the mother's body and therefore "owned by the mother" and NOT a living individual, then Dingus is right that Aimee can do whatever she pleases and noone has the right to tell her otherwise. However, if the unborn baby IS an individual, then Dingus' argument still applies, and, in fact, is in line with what Jonzo is arguing: no one (including the mother) has the right to risk (ie choose the fate of or infringe on the rights of) the unborn baby. IF one believes the latter, I think it must follow that one must also believe that, in choosing to become pregnant, one is choosing to limit their own individual freedoms in order to not infringe on those of the defenseless child... IF one believes that, that is.
On a different note... Angry and Aimee have argued that climbing three grades below your max is a "safe" level. Others have argued that even driving is more dangerous. I think these are both red herrings. First, driving is commonly accepted as being generally safe and necessary. Only someone out of their mind would propose that an expectant mother that drives is behaving irresponsibly. However, I don't think that someone who suggests that lead climbing is irresponsible is similarly out of their mind. I think that generally people accept that lead climbing is risky and top roping is safe (despite the number of accidents that occur top roping), just like people accept that driving without a seatbelt is risky and driving with one on is safe (despite the number of car accidents that occur). Jonzo has used this reasoning and I think it is sound. Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that Angry's assertion that soloing three grades below one's limit is safe (even with his stipulations that one must be totally in touch with one's body/aware of the circumstances, etc) is foolish. Wisdom is knowing that one can never be fully certain or fully know... whether you're talking about whether or not soloing is safe or whether or not a fetus is a living individual.
(This post was edited by jsj42 on Jan 4, 2007, 8:25 PM)
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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 8:16 PM
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dingus wrote: My wife climbed pregnant. I belayed her. The list of men who think that they have provence over what goes on inside a woman's body is a very very very long list. This has nothing to do with climbing. If she dares anything even remotely risky there will be self-righteous men (like one or two in this thread) who feel it is their business to tell her what to do. It is about the control of women. As I smile at my wife and daughters this morning it comforts me greatly that NONE OF YOU MEN WILL EVER HAVE SAY OVER WHAT GOES ON IN MY DAUGHTER'S BODIES, not EVER. Animal Farm never changes. New equipment, new techniques and still we have with: All people are equal. Its just that some of us are a lot more equal than others. DMT
Well, it may be the woman's body, but you stuck your dick in it and spewed to make the baby, she didn't do it on her own. Therefore its both of you that should be making decisions about your future child.
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caughtinside
Jan 4, 2007, 8:18 PM
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j_ung wrote: caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: ^ Might make certain crack widths easier. Sounds like aid! Remind you of anything?
Well, I didn't want to sidetrack this thread with the story about the bachelor party you threw me at Veudewoo with the naked 'catch and tackle the naked midget on OW TR' party game. Who ever said you had to get married to have a bachelor party?
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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 8:19 PM
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j_ung wrote: jonzoclimber wrote: I stand by what I said, this is absolutely ridiculous. This is about the only point in anyone's life where I believe other people have to be involved in telling someone what is good for them, because it is not just effecting them. Saying she knows her body and limitations is shear arrogance. I do believe she should keep doing what she loves and stay active, but if she cant not lead climb for 9 months for the sake of her unborn child then maybe she should reconsider how she's going to treat her baby... In my opinion this is outrageous that anyone could defend someone doing something so stupid. I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT. So what are you waiting for? Call the police.
it may be a case of child abuse, I don't know. call the lawyers and find out.
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dingus
Jan 4, 2007, 8:21 PM
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jsj42 wrote: whereas DMT actually tries to argue a point:
No no buddy I'm the devil didn't you know?
DMT
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olderic
Jan 4, 2007, 8:23 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: jonzoclimber wrote: I'm all for taking risks and doing some damage to myself for the love of climbing, but she'd feel really stupid when she took a minor fall and out pops a retarded baby... ITS NOT WORTH THE RISK IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT. Was your mom a climber, by any chance?
Tiff - that was one of your best ones ever.
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thespider
Jan 4, 2007, 8:23 PM
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murf wrote: So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it? -Murf
Well, it was a good photo, and good photos have to be viewed.
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j_ung
Jan 4, 2007, 8:24 PM
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caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: caughtinside wrote: j_ung wrote: ^ Might make certain crack widths easier. Sounds like aid! Remind you of anything? Well, I didn't want to sidetrack this thread with the story about the bachelor party you threw me at Veudewoo with the naked 'catch and tackle the naked midget on OW TR' party game. Who ever said you had to get married to have a bachelor party?
Not sure, but I pity the fool!
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devils_advocate
Jan 4, 2007, 8:25 PM
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dingus wrote: jsj42 wrote: whereas DMT actually tries to argue a point: No no buddy I'm the devil didn't you know?
I'll vouch for him... I should know.
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 9:15 PM
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thespider wrote: dingus wrote: My wife climbed pregnant. I belayed her. The list of men who think that they have provence over what goes on inside a woman's body is a very very very long list. This has nothing to do with climbing. If she dares anything even remotely risky there will be self-righteous men (like one or two in this thread) who feel it is their business to tell her what to do. It is about the control of women. As I smile at my wife and daughters this morning it comforts me greatly that NONE OF YOU MEN WILL EVER HAVE SAY OVER WHAT GOES ON IN MY DAUGHTER'S BODIES, not EVER. Animal Farm never changes. New equipment, new techniques and still we have with: All people are equal. Its just that some of us are a lot more equal than others. DMT Well, it may be the woman's body, but you stuck your dick in it and spewed to make the baby, she didn't do it on her own. Therefore its both of you that should be making decisions about your future child.
Although I agree with the sentiment, this is completely out of line. Seriously, if you are going to respond to a conversation that, for the most part, has been civil, then do so with some tact. This isn't Jerry Springer's forum and if you can only express yourself that way then no one will care what you think except for the topless hillbillies sleeping with their brothers on Jerry's show.
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sidepull
Jan 4, 2007, 9:36 PM
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dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: I'm sure you would have a say if your wife were leading - correct? The only say I have or have ever had about what my wife does with her body is the one she grants me. I don't get to insist on a voice, nor would I. Basically if she decided to do as Amy and I didn't like it? She would proceed without my consent, and god bless her for it. I might not like it but I would celebrate her self-determination. She's a strong woman, Mrs Milktoast. She's married to me, she has to be! Me and my kids are so lucky she puts up with us. I hope (and trust) her daughters will grow up with the same independence and backbone.
I guess at this point it comes down to different styles of communication within a marriage. By saying "I'd have a say" doesn't mean that I in any way command or control my wife. It simply means that if we decide to have a baby, then we are both deciding to be parents and to act together as parents. And because that decision is a joint decision then we would certainly discuss other issues, problems or possibilities surrounding that pregnancy.
dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: Imagine for a moment what would have happened if she had fallen and, as a result miscarried. Imagine what the news stories would say. I can't imagine what it must be like for a woman to suffer a miscarriage as a result of her own actions. I can't empathize with that personal Hell. Speculating is pointless however.
It might seem trite or too extreme or perhaps even inappropriate to imagine the scenario. However, ethical discussions are often extremely abstract and so suggesting an imagined sequence of events is often helpful and even suggested by some ethics scholars. At the very least, it was a more grounded and less simplistic example than comparing her climbing to driving a car.
dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: I really don't agree with the OP's insistence that other's should back off with their critiques - those opinions (good and bad) were encouraged when the pic was posted. A good point. Just to clarify when I say 'its none of our business' I'm talking about the woman's authority over her own body. We don't get to decide her level of responsibility nor should we in this case. She' s not smoking crack so far as I know, just climbing them! I would certainly trust this Amy person's (don't know her, never met her and like as not, never will) decision over that of some dude a million miles away. Cheers sidey! DMT
Thanks, and I guess I don't mind the nickname sidey, kinda spidermanish. Finally, I agree that I'd trust Aimee over others, but, for me, it's an uncomfortable trust. And I doubt her discretion more given the pic of her bouldering at 7 months pregnant - particularly on a problem at Red Rocks that has a lot of flex. I know it's well traveled, but everytime I've climbed that warm up, pieces have broken.
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jonzoclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 10:33 PM
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I'd like to thank you and coppertone for your well written comments and not simply blowing off the argument at hand.
I'd also like to say sorry to everyone for escalating the conversation as I did, I'm getting too personally attatched to the argument.
Last thing I'm going to say is that this argument at abortion should not be compared, it's just taking a specific example and making it broad... loosing focus. We're not debating wether or not the fetus is a person or not, their intentions are to have the baby and make a person, thus we should consider it so.
I hope everything turns out alright and you have a beautiful baby, good luck.
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tradrenn
Jan 5, 2007, 2:26 AM
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I personally have a mix up feeling about this.
On one hand I think it is cool what your friend is doing.
On the other hand I'm a bit scared about her and her child well being.
We should all understand that "change" is the most scary thing for humans to do, it's very psychological thing which unfortunately 90% people don't understand. I think that some people are opposing this cause it is a new thing. I would give it time and see how it plays out. Some of the greatest achievements in human history came up in similar way. (more less, you get the idea, just look at cams, Ray Jardine and his friends in 1974, the rest is history ) and so will be a subject of this thread in 10 or 20 years from now.
All the best to mother, father and child.
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sausalito
Jan 5, 2007, 2:58 AM
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what exactly does she do in the "medical" profession? I am curious because sometimes this leads people to believe they know more than they do. I am an RN working on becoming an NP and if someone pregnant asked me if they should lead or not I would tell them to go and ask their OB doctor. So what does she do that made it worth mentioning?
I am also a little concerned about the comments of she was not going to fall. Every time I read crap like that I thank god on one of my first 5.10 leads a solid hold snapped and I took a 20+ foot ride. I also saw a chunk of rock about the size of a basketball fall off a well establish roof route. Shit happens.
But if I had to guess she was probably not putting the baby at any undo risk even with a decent fall... so long as there was no pendy effect that created a belly first impact on the rock...
and to the guy saying it would be like strapping an infant to your chest are you serious? If so read a fucking biology book.
More power to her but do know that you could have fallen and just because you work in the "medical" field you/nor anyone else is the end authority on any such topic....
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curt
Jan 5, 2007, 3:04 AM
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tradrenn wrote: I personally have a mix up feeling about this. On one hand I think it is cool what your friend is doing. On the other hand I'm a bit scared about her and her child well being.
Well, hopefully she is following her OB's advice--and it sounds to me like she probably is, based on what my wife's doctor allowed her to do during her own pregnancy. There are a few things that my wife wasn't supposed to do later in her pregnancy; things like horseback riding, jogging, lead climbing, etc.--basically things that could result in falls or jarring situations.
The fact that Aimee has now stopped leading sounds like she is being fairly prudent and not taking on risks that perhaps she and her doctor consider to be unwise.
BTW, my wife went for a 5 mile hike almost every day of her pregnancy--including the actual day she delivered our son.
Curt
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climbsomething
Jan 5, 2007, 3:13 AM
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Aimee is a PT. This is not an OB, I know. But I used this appeal to show that she has access to learned medical opinions, and also has a better concept than most laypeople about the human body and what specific questions to ask.
To the person who said I was making ad hominem attacks: yup, I sure was. They had it coming back at them. See, some people are making cruel and crass statements about Aimee's mothering ability. I think I can speak for most sane women, whether they have children or not, when I say that questioning or denegrating a woman's mothering ability, especially when you don't know her, is a nasty insult. I don't have kids but it offends my mere maternal instinct (which I do have) way WAY more than a pg woman climbing in her caving harness. I can think of little more personal and vicious than ignorants telling a woman that she's a stupid pig who is going to kill her child (and conversely, no better compliment than to say she's a good mother). Those people were not sticking to "issues," they were attacking the person, pure and simple.
Protective paternal instincts are one thing, and I can appreciate them from many men, but not everybody here is expressing their criticism in such an intelligent way. It's a fine line and a few men have crossed it.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Jan 5, 2007, 3:17 AM)
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pixelguru
Jan 5, 2007, 3:25 AM
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I actualy have a harder time with her lack of helmet than I do with her being pregnant...
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shootershowers
Jan 5, 2007, 3:37 AM
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i think she should stop climbing and take up roller coster riding for the safety of her baby
j/k who the fuck cares
p.s. i've been on break from school for three weeks and i'm only replying cause i'm that bored....what are all of your excuses
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jonzoclimber
Jan 5, 2007, 3:42 AM
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right... that's clearly not the debate for this forum.
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pixelguru
Jan 5, 2007, 3:58 AM
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A joke... next time, I'll add the required 
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dingus
Jan 5, 2007, 4:00 AM
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Who's the coward who called her a pig anyway? He seems to have gone missing...
DMT
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dingus
Jan 5, 2007, 4:03 AM
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jonzoclimber wrote: I'd like to thank you and coppertone for your well written comments
yes here's a gem of well written understanding:
jonzoclimber wrote: IF YOU"RE PREGO, LEARN SOME GAHDAMN SELF RESTRAINT.
You're welcome.
DMT
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reno
Jan 5, 2007, 4:15 AM
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curt wrote: Well, hopefully she is following her OB's advice--and it sounds to me like she probably is, based on what my wife's doctor allowed her to do during her own pregnancy. There are a few things that my wife wasn't supposed to do later in her pregnancy; things like horseback riding, jogging, lead climbing, etc.--basically things that could result in falls or jarring situations. The fact that Aimee has now stopped leading sounds like she is being fairly prudent and not taking on risks that perhaps she and her doctor consider to be unwise. BTW, my wife went for a 5 mile hike almost every day of her pregnancy--including the actual day she delivered our son.
Curt hits on several points, but the key one is this: Talk to, listen to, and ask questions of, your doctor.
I'm going to go off on a tangent now. If you don't care to read it, skip to the next post.
Many people like to think that they understand medicine because they read something on the internet, heard stories from a friend, or watched a blurb on the news. Such is not the case. While I am a big advocate of patients becoming more aware and informed about their condition, there is no... repeat, NO... substitute for expert medical advice that you can only get from talking to a doctor or two.
The days of "pregnant women should be on strict bed rest" are over. There are some folks who should not climb, run, hike, ride, swim, or otherwise exert themselves while pregnant. Who are these women? They are those who have specific medical conditions that put them at higher risk. What conditions? Depends on the woman.
Each. Patient. Is. Unique.
That's the first rule of medicine, beyond that "First, do no harm" part. Those who would make blanket statements about ANY patient.... pregnant, not pregnant, whatever.... are those who forgot that rule.
Beyond this, however, lay the social issue: We, as a people, are not in a position to tell another how to live his or her life. Would you folks that chastise this woman for "ignoring the desires of the male" be so quick to chastise men for riding a bicycle? After all, there is much data to suggest a causative relationship between bicycle riding and male sterility. Aren't you then ignoring the needs and wants of the female who might wish to bear children?
Bottom lines: Pregnant women should consult experienced OB/GYN doctors for more information to facilitate making good decisions. And men should remember that we have no place to tell a woman what to do with her body any more than they have a right to tell us what to do with ours.
/rant
(This post was edited by reno on Jan 5, 2007, 4:17 AM)
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miavzero
Jan 5, 2007, 4:58 AM
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If aimee has an accident and harms her baby, can I bomb her local climbing gym?
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petsfed
Jan 5, 2007, 5:09 AM
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I saw the photo in question. I reacted to it and from that formed an opinion. Then I did not comment on the photo. The portion of my opinion that has relevance follows:
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climbsomething
Jan 5, 2007, 5:43 AM
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shootershowers wrote: i think she should stop climbing and take up roller coster riding for the safety of her baby j/k who the fuck cares p.s. i've been on break from school for three weeks and i'm only replying cause i'm that bored....what are all of your excuses
haha j/k lol :-8
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wonderwoman
Jan 5, 2007, 1:35 PM
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dingus wrote: Who's the coward who called her a pig anyway? He seems to have gone missing... DMT
fearlessclimber called her a pig in the pic comments. Maybe he should consider changing his username:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ame=fearlessclimber;
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azrockclimber
Jan 5, 2007, 2:24 PM
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she's a strong girl... :)
I can't believe some of the comments that were made about this woman. I think it is completely fine, and COMPLETELY her choice.
glad to see she is staying active.... I betcha getting morbidly obese and eating burgers and fries and crap is way worse for the unborn child then a potential sport fall.....
rock on...
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crackmd
Jan 5, 2007, 7:55 PM
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"ebonezercabbage wrote: ... A REAL ( responsible) father doesn't go out of his way to endanger his children. Same should go for mommy.
Well then what's the problem? If she's climbing well below her usual leading ability on a climb she's climbed many, many times before, she's not going out of her way to endanger her child. She's made accomodations for her pregnancy (chest harness, climbing easier climbs, now not leading)...sounds responsible to me.
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aimeerose
Jan 5, 2007, 8:12 PM
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jonzoclimber wrote: It's not like driving a car, its ROCK CLIMBING. We all do it on this site, and know the average person cannot and even should not do it. It's 100% different from driving a car, but quite on par with driving a race car.
Yeah, it is different than driving a car- it's SAFER than driving a car. Especaily sport climbing on closely placed bolts in well traveled limestone that you've climbed hundreds of times. BTW, I have NEVER fallen on this climb- no matter what the weather, if I was sick, tired, pregnant, whatever.
And the reason we took this pic was for our christmas card and the funny thing is ya'll who don't know me are freaking out way more than my family! I decided to post it cause it's a photogenic climb and I've found from my thread in the ladies' room that it's inspiring to other women to see a preggo woman climb.
BTW, my husband belayed me, so he definately had a say in it.
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kylerose
Jan 5, 2007, 8:17 PM
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As the father of the baby, the husband, and the belayer, I thought I'd comment on all of this.
Regarding the safety:
- Aimee's done that route ~100 times and never fell.
- I was planning on giving a very soft catch if necessary.
- Our doctor gave the OK
- Full body harness doesn't put pressure on the belly
- We would NEVER do anything that seriously put our baby at danger
Now, to the person who called my wife a "FREAKING PIG". Why would you say that? You don't know us, nor our abilities. Please, can we make this a forum to promote a community rather than a place to hide behind screen names and trade personal insults?
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clausti
Jan 5, 2007, 8:31 PM
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thespider wrote: Well, it may be the woman's body, but you stuck your dick in it and spewed to make the baby, she didn't do it on her own. Therefore its both of you that should be making decisions about your future child.
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwow!
that is about the crassest thing i think i have read on this web site, including anything I have posted.
its not your baby. its not my baby. its not the father's baby. its not even aimee's baby YET, it is AIMEE's *pregnancy.* THAT is why it is different than climbing with an infant strapped to your chest.
though, quite frankly, in the harness that shes wearing, i seriously think she could climb with an infant strapped to her, take a lead fall on the route on which she is pictured, and not hurt the infant.
she can do whatever the fuck she wants. and so far, whatever the fuck she wants sounds like she IS thinking. end of story.
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pixelguru
Jan 5, 2007, 9:21 PM
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As a dad, and a dad-to-be (next May), I'm really glad you posted. My wife mountain biked at 5 months on easier trails. She just made sure she didn't get dehydrated. She climbed indoors until 4 months, but had to stop because of joint pain - she thinks it was because of the pregnancy hormones which help her body stretch. I was fine with all of this with the first pregnancy, but I find myself being somehwat more protective with the second. Maybe it's because I saw how tiny and fragile my daughter was when she was born, or maybe every pregnancy is just different.
The photo is beautiful.
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miavzero
Jan 6, 2007, 5:32 AM
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those you who decided to protect the unborn, please give your attention to a real problem: http://capwiz.com/nofas/home/
(This post was edited by miavzero on Jan 6, 2007, 5:33 AM)
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clee03m
Jan 6, 2007, 9:22 PM
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aimeerose wrote: Yeah, it is different than driving a car- it's SAFER than driving a car. Especaily sport climbing on closely placed bolts in well traveled limestone that you've climbed hundreds of times. BTW, I have NEVER fallen on this climb- no matter what the weather, if I was sick, tired, pregnant, whatever. And the reason we took this pic was for our christmas card and the funny thing is ya'll who don't know me are freaking out way more than my family! I decided to post it cause it's a photogenic climb and I've found from my thread in the ladies' room that it's inspiring to other women to see a preggo woman climb. BTW, my husband belayed me, so he definately had a say in it.
I would like to thank Amee for posting the picture. I personally find it very inspiring. And I agree that driving is more dangerous. I've read that more people are hurt from car accidents to and fro than actually climbing. So, famous "pig" guy, are pregnant women pigs for driving? I work in a medical field where I could be stuck with Hep C or HIV needle. Very unlikely, but it could happen. I will take all precautions, but I would like to venture that chances are higher than Amee falling and hurting her child on this 10b. So, should I quit my job when I become pregnant? No, wait. Let me correct that. My HUSBAND should force me to quit my job, right?
Once again, I have found reading about your pregnancy in the lady's room thread and your pictures very inspiring. Keep us posted. I'll be definitely looking back when it's my time. Can't wait for your baby pictures!
C
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moose_droppings
Jan 6, 2007, 9:42 PM
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I don't beleive she is pregnant in that picture. She's just put on a few pounds from the holidays.
Cut her some slack.
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serac
Jan 6, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Add my voice to the people saying congratulations for continuing to climb. I climb with a full body harness all the time and a clean fall with a good belay is about as hard on you as falling into bed. I also generally wear a helmet but each his own I guess.
I certainly hope that the people who are nay saying you have no children of their own. After all how irresponsible of them to risk injury and threaten to put the welfare of their own families at risk. Plainly once your wife or girlfriend becomes "prego" you should sell your rack and give up all unnecessary risk.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 7, 2007, 6:28 AM
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Aimee --
You go girl.
Brutus
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notapplicable
Jan 7, 2007, 8:08 AM
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CLIMB ON AIMEE
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carrotclimber
Jan 8, 2007, 6:44 PM
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I think that this thread is very applicable to both men and women climbers. I totally support Amie's decision, but I don't think that I would make the same decision for myself. As long as her and her husband are comfortable with it though, that is good enough for me. I think that posting the image put their personal decision front and center, which I am glad for (though sorry that they have been attacked for it).
My boyfriend and I have talked about this. I agree with Sidepull that in my relationship my boyfriend does not have control over my body, but it would definately be something that we discussed together. I would like to continue to climb when I am pregnant, but he is not entirely comfortable with that, which I can respect. I am sure that we will reach some middle ground.
On a related note though... weight and hormones can do weird things to your body and it's abilities. I had a female surgery and was on hormones for 6 months afterwards. I gained 20 lbs and felt out of wack. My climbing seriously suffered from that. Things that I used to be able to climb, I couldn't climb cleanly anymore. I am 5'8" and went from 120-140. This bodily change affected not only my climbing... but my confidence level as well. I am by no means a 5.13 climber though. I think that the challenges that I faced would be significantly lessened if I climbed at a higher level... but that experience would probably cause me to rethink leading during my future pregnancies.... but then again, I am not at that point in my life and Amiee is.
Keep climbing Amiee. It is a great picture and inspired some thoughful debate. I especially liked the person questioning if this discussion would be different in 10-20 years. I am sure it will be.
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redpoint73
Jan 8, 2007, 7:14 PM
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Does the kid get credit for the ascent?
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crimpandgo
Jan 8, 2007, 7:27 PM
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clausti wrote: thespider wrote: Well, it may be the woman's body, but you stuck your dick in it and spewed to make the baby, she didn't do it on her own. Therefore its both of you that should be making decisions about your future child. wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwow! that is about the crassest thing i think i have read on this web site, including anything I have posted. its not your baby. its not my baby. its not the father's baby. its not even aimee's baby YET, it is AIMEE's *pregnancy.* THAT is why it is different than climbing with an infant strapped to your chest. though, quite frankly, in the harness that shes wearing, i seriously think she could climb with an infant strapped to her, take a lead fall on the route on which she is pictured, and not hurt the infant. she can do whatever the fuck she wants. and so far, whatever the fuck she wants sounds like she IS thinking. end of story.
Spider may have chosen poor wording, but a point is being lost here. Since it takes two to make the baby.... and women have NO problem going to court to get financial support from the father.. It stands to reason the father should have strong input into the rearing of the baby.... Even during the pregnancy. The decision women make during pregnancy directly affect the financial outcome a father will be responsible for.. In today's world more fathers are becoming more involved in the care giving responsibilities. The laws that allow the father more say in the care decision will soon follow.
Not taking a side either way here. Sounds like the Mother and father are in mutual agreement. Most people are holding on to old stigmas about what to do during pregnancy anyway. the medical profession is a moving target. The rules change everyday. Be more open to listening to new research.. You will live longer... 
I don't know the climber personally, but as a father, I am touched by her comments that obviiously show working together with the father.
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chadnsc
Jan 8, 2007, 7:47 PM
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redpoint73 wrote: Does the kid get credit for the ascent?
Yup, but it only counts as a top rope.
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overit
Jan 8, 2007, 9:07 PM
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Bobbi Bensman is a good friend of mine and never lead routes outdoors that far into her pregnancies. As a matter of fact, she tore her ACL a few months into the second one and did nothing but ride an indoor stationary bike for the rest of her term. Aimee can do whatever she wants but please don't make general quotes about others that are not true.
Thanks
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ccox
Jan 9, 2007, 3:07 PM
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Really? If you could have free soloed this climb, then it begs the question: Have you ever free soloed Mr. Slate? If not, you're full of it, and I don't mean the baby. Literally hundreds of times? Sounds like more exageration, since I hold the Mr. Slate ascent record at 97. P.S. Holds do break and accidents happen, regardless of inflated egos.
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ccox
Jan 9, 2007, 3:16 PM
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murf wrote: aimeerose wrote: That's right, angry, I could have free soloed this climb. There was no way I was going to fall on it, hence I was leading it. I have literally done this climb hundreds of times. I stopped leading anything I had the potential to fall on as soon as I knew I was pregnant! I even took a month climbing trip to spain and led one climb the whole time. I was hardly showing (not needing the body harness yet) and it was frustrating following some of the overhanging climbs, but that was the right decision in my opinion. So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it? -Murf Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. Some things should be kept private, cuz she's just asking for it.
(This post was edited by ccox on Jan 9, 2007, 3:18 PM)
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coppertone
Jan 9, 2007, 4:57 PM
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aimeerose wrote: Yeah, it is different than driving a car- it's SAFER than driving a car. Especaily sport climbing on closely placed bolts in well traveled limestone that you've climbed hundreds of times. BTW, I have NEVER fallen on this climb- no matter what the weather, if I was sick, tired, pregnant, whatever.
Aimee I am glad that you are doing what you like and I wish you and your husband the best with the baby, but that is rather naive attitude. Climbing is much safer than driving a car, ok think what you like. Many more people are hurt in car accidents as opposed to climbing accidents because an overwhelming majority of the population drives where a very small minority of the population climbs. Most people drive as a necessary part of life in order to earn a living and get to work. Climbing while important to many of us is clearly not a necessary activity.
The fact that you have never fallen on this or any other climb that you may be climbing on while pregnant is also a silly statement. Holds break, feet slip, wasps sting, holds can be wet. To say that you also have never fallen even pregnant continues the silliness. Your body does change drastically and your balance, strenth, endurance also change. You obviously do know your body very well being a strong climber and this is absolutely your decision to make I just hope that it is the right one.
I am glad that my wife chose to stop climbing during her first pregnancy and I am sure that she will do the same during her next one. That was the right decision for us. I just hope that you are prepared for the major adjustments and compromises that come with parenthood. At the crag is not the best place for an infant for both safety and to have their needs come first. We found this out in a hurry as just getting out for a hike with a small baby becomes a major challenge. Everyday that I see my daughters smiling face I feel grateful and I am happy that we did not take any unnecssary risks, and I do not regret for a second the sacrifices that we made with our leisure time. Again this is just my opinion which I feel has been stated in a very respectful manner. Your clearly opened yourself up for others to give your their opinions on the matter when you posted the picture, so you really should not feel offended or insulted by that. Conversely anyone who has flung insults and personal attacks your way should be ashamed of themeselves and clearly have very little to add to an otherwise interesting and important discussion.
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kriso9tails
Jan 10, 2007, 4:01 AM
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ccox wrote: murf wrote: aimeerose wrote: That's right, angry, I could have free soloed this climb. There was no way I was going to fall on it, hence I was leading it. I have literally done this climb hundreds of times. I stopped leading anything I had the potential to fall on as soon as I knew I was pregnant! I even took a month climbing trip to spain and led one climb the whole time. I was hardly showing (not needing the body harness yet) and it was frustrating following some of the overhanging climbs, but that was the right decision in my opinion. So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it? -Murf Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. Some things should be kept private, cuz she's just asking for it.
Before I reply, take into account:
jonzoclimber wrote: wildly inaprorpriate jesus christ woman... if you fell you could destroy your child's life if not kill it. I think this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen on this website.
and
fearlessclimber wrote: go ahead and risk it woman, if you cant take off climbing for your child your a freakin pig. not the brightest idea
To expect criticism is one thing, but to be called a "freakin' pig"? Just because someone leaves you an opening to be an asshole, doesn't mean you have to be an asshole... nor does it excuse it.
What's the point in posting the picture? What's the point in posting any picture; to share something. I don't understand the statement "Some things should be kept private, cuz she's just asking for it."
First off, what here needs to be kept private? Climbing? Being pregnant?
Second, asking for it? Asking for what exactly? 'Cause really, I think most people are generally asking for other people to have a sense of decency, but really, I think people should start demanding it since it's not that unreasonable.
And if I were married and you called my pregnant wife a pig to her face you'd be eating your fucking teeth.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Jan 10, 2007, 4:07 AM)
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climbsomething
Jan 10, 2007, 4:07 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: To expect criticism is one thing, but to be called a "freakin' pig"? Just because someone leaves you an opening to be an asshole, doesn't mean you have to be an asshole... nor does it excuse it. What's the point in posting the picture? What's the point in posting any picture; to share something. I don't understand the statement "Some things should be kept private, cuz she's just asking for it." First off, what here needs to be kept private? Climbing? Being pregnant? Second, asking for it? Asking for what exactly? 'Cause really, I think most people are generally asking for other people to have a sense of decency, but really, I think people should start demanding it since it's not that unreasonable. And if I were married and you called my wife a pig to her face you'd be eating your fucking teeth.
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philbox
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Jan 10, 2007, 4:27 AM
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/\/\/\/\/\/\ I'm with Hillary, have another trophy.
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dingus
Jan 10, 2007, 4:39 AM
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crimpandgo wrote: It stands to reason the father should have strong input into the rearing of the baby.... Even during the pregnancy.
It doesn't stand up to reason at all.
Strong input is just another way of saying legal dominion, asserting rights (you don't have). Nut uh, not gonna happen.
Its too bad some young men get all bent out of shape when they come to realize they don't own the world nor anyone in it. Including their wives or girlfriends.
When you assert control over someone else's body, that is bondage, pure and simple. We outlawed that shit a long time ago, even fought a bloody war over it.
We're not going back to those days, when men presumed to lord it over women and wrote it into the law. Best to come to grips with reality.
Hillary for president ( the Clinton one, our Hillary is far too scary to be poised with her hardened fingertips inches from the big red button!)
DMT
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raymondjeffrey
Jan 10, 2007, 4:54 AM
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Everybody just hold on a second... I know that I am a mere meathead but I think that I just read a post that a chick can have an orgasm while giving birth. Is that true?!?!?!? That would explain all the screaming and stuff.
Aside from everything else, it is a high quality shot. Also, does that body harness NOT go across her lower abdomen? It looks like it loops the legs, arms, and chest, but I can't tell. And that would mean that there would be less abdominal pressure should she weight the system correct?
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crackrn
Jan 10, 2007, 4:58 AM
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. In reply to: Bless yer heart. Have a trophy.
Double dog ditto.
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lena_chita
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Jan 10, 2007, 3:09 PM
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dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: It stands to reason the father should have strong input into the rearing of the baby.... Even during the pregnancy. It doesn't stand up to reason at all. Strong input is just another way of saying legal dominion, asserting rights (you don't have). Nut uh, not gonna happen. Its too bad some young men get all bent out of shape when they come to realize they don't own the world nor anyone in it. Including their wives or girlfriends. When you assert control over someone else's body, that is bondage, pure and simple. We outlawed that shit a long time ago, even fought a bloody war over it. We're not going back to those days, when men presumed to lord it over women and wrote it into the law. Best to come to grips with reality. DMT
I agree with you in terms that LEGALLY you are correct and I think legally no one but a woman should have any say about what's going on in her body.
BUT... This isn't a case of bad-jerk abusive husband trying to assert his rights over his wife's body. This is a case of two peole HAPPILY married, BOTH being in agreement about wanting the child, and anticipating the child's arrival. So IMO in this case, while legally the husband has no say and his only response to wife's declaration of "I'm going climbing" could be : "Yes, honey, you can do whatever you want and I have no power over you, so of course I won't be stopping you" -- his real-life response COULD be something like:"Honey, I am worried about it. Are you sure it is safe?" etc. etc.
It does not in any way make him a dominating guy who is trying to assert control over his wife's body. It makes him a concerned husband. And the wife's responce, hopefully, isn't along the lines of:"F#ck-off, jerk, it's my body ,I do what I want to do and you have no say in it legally", but rather something along the lines of:"I'm pretty sure it is O.K. I still feel strong, and I you know I will take it easy."
Sounds like Aimee and her husband are in perfect agreement over it, and the entire argument over whether her husband should or shouldn't have any say in it is quite pointless.
Yes, legally he doesn't have any say about the unborn baby, but in a healthy relationship he does. In the same way as I really don't have any legal means of stopping my husband from, say, leaving every single night to go to a bar if he chooses to do so, but in a healthy relationship he would never just decide to do it without asking my opinion and taking my feelings into consideration.
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dingus
Jan 10, 2007, 3:29 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Yes, legally he doesn't have any say about the unborn baby, but in a healthy relationship he does.
Completely agree with you Lena of course. I said it earlier in the thread... the only voice a man should have re this topic is the voice his mate grants him.
Her body, her decisions.
Cheers
Cheers
DMT
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ckirkwood9
Jan 10, 2007, 3:38 PM
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lena_chita wrote: dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: It stands to reason the father should have strong input into the rearing of the baby.... Even during the pregnancy. It doesn't stand up to reason at all. Strong input is just another way of saying legal dominion, asserting rights (you don't have). Nut uh, not gonna happen. Its too bad some young men get all bent out of shape when they come to realize they don't own the world nor anyone in it. Including their wives or girlfriends. When you assert control over someone else's body, that is bondage, pure and simple. We outlawed that shit a long time ago, even fought a bloody war over it. We're not going back to those days, when men presumed to lord it over women and wrote it into the law. Best to come to grips with reality. DMT I agree with you in terms that LEGALLY you are correct and I think legally no one but a woman should have any say about what's going on in her body. BUT... This isn't a case of bad-jerk abusive husband trying to assert his rights over his wife's body. This is a case of two peole HAPPILY married, BOTH being in agreement about wanting the child, and anticipating the child's arrival. So IMO in this case, while legally the husband has no say and his only response to wife's declaration of "I'm going climbing" could be : "Yes, honey, you can do whatever you want and I have no power over you, so of course I won't be stopping you" -- his real-life response COULD be something like:"Honey, I am worried about it. Are you sure it is safe?" etc. etc. It does not in any way make him a dominating guy who is trying to assert control over his wife's body. It makes him a concerned husband. And the wife's responce, hopefully, isn't along the lines of:"F#ck-off, jerk, it's my body ,I do what I want to do and you have no say in it legally", but rather something along the lines of:"I'm pretty sure it is O.K. I still feel strong, and I you know I will take it easy." Sounds like Aimee and her husband are in perfect agreement over it, and the entire argument over whether her husband should or shouldn't have any say in it is quite pointless. Yes, legally he doesn't have any say about the unborn baby, but in a healthy relationship he does. In the same way as I really don't have any legal means of stopping my husband from, say, leaving every single night to go to a bar if he chooses to do so, but in a healthy relationship he would never just decide to do it without asking my opinion and taking my feelings into consideration.
OMG THANK YOU... finally a voice of reason. Not having been in this situation (expecting a baby) i can't truly say how i'd feel if the mother of my child decided to climb... but THANK YOU for at least CONSIDERING the father's perspective. If something were to happen (and i hope that it wouldn't be the case) BOTH mother AND father lose the baby.
Having said that, climb on people... at the end of the day let's all hope that nothing will happen to our fellow climber or her baby so we can welcom a new person at the crag.
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cchildre
Jan 10, 2007, 3:46 PM
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For the role of men reguarding their pregnate partners and controlling them. One thing stands alone. By choosing to entrust your seed to that woman, you surrender control and fate of to the fetus to her. She wants to off it, then you really should have been a little more particular about who you selected to share your bed with.
Another thought going back to the OP. I know that a lot of unkind, harsh, and inapporpriate things have been said. Only consider that aren't we sort of morally obligated to voice our opinions when we see someone engaging in what we consider to be an unsafe practice? I mean if I saw some noobs TR'ing off a single bolt running the rope through the hanger, shouldn't I say something. I know it isn't and exact comparision, seeing as the preg case is more a judgement call for everyone and my hypothetical one is a clear no-no. The casual onlooker has no grip of the situation or the climbers ability, so at a glance it could be incredibly dangerous. Say if she was climbing at her limit perhaps. I guess that I can understand some speaking out or at least questioning the practice. Now the fashion by which it is done is another story.
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crimpandgo
Jan 10, 2007, 3:57 PM
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dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: It stands to reason the father should have strong input into the rearing of the baby.... Even during the pregnancy. It doesn't stand up to reason at all. Strong input is just another way of saying legal dominion, asserting rights (you don't have). Nut uh, not gonna happen. Its too bad some young men get all bent out of shape when they come to realize they don't own the world nor anyone in it. Including their wives or girlfriends. When you assert control over someone else's body, that is bondage, pure and simple. We outlawed that shit a long time ago, even fought a bloody war over it. We're not going back to those days, when men presumed to lord it over women and wrote it into the law. Best to come to grips with reality. Hillary for president ( the Clinton one, our Hillary is far too scary to be poised with her hardened fingertips inches from the big red button!) DMT
this issue is not controlling my wifes.girlfriends body. It has nothing to do with the woman at all really. It has to do with the fathers financial responsiblity. A woman can make poor decisions during and after pregancy that can affect the man for years to come. And if she LEGALLY (notice I point out legality since you made such an issue of it) can hold a man responsible, then ist stands to reason he has legal rights to protect his financial interest.
I am not going to do the research since this topic doesn' t really warrent that much effort, but I would hazard to guess if anyone did, your results would show just as many lawsuits won by the man when it came to protecting his financial interests.
My guess is during the pregnancy, the man trying to limit the woman would be lost. but come a few years later, after some debiliating problem has occured and the women sues for more support, the man's time in court will be rewarded.
See, its not really about the woman at all. its about the child.. and it all REALLY comes down to MONEY... cause if a man went to court just to assert his manhood... well that would just be stupid ... and costly now wouldn't it
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dingus
Jan 10, 2007, 4:05 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: See, its not really about the woman at all.
When she's carrying the fetus it is.
DMT
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zeke_sf
Jan 10, 2007, 4:05 PM
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don't know about y'all, but if my wife tried climbing during her pregnancy I'd beat the crap out of her.
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natec
Jan 10, 2007, 4:30 PM
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I haven't read all of the posts, I see no need to. My comment is regarding climbers in general.
I was an extremely dedicated member of the climbing community for a long time before growing tired of the "community" at large and leaving for other sports that I enjoyed more. I enjoyed these sports more mainly because of the fact that the members who participated in these sports didn't feel the need to endlessly chirp about things that didn't concern them and stand in judgement of one another.
Climbing is ripe with self-righteousness and judgement of others. It's disguisting. What's more disguisting is that these people feel as though they have some need or right to sound off about the actions of others, even when these actions have no affect on the person standing on the soapbox.
So what if she's climbing while pregnant. So what if you and I don't agree with it. What makes you feel that it's necessary to voice your opinion? It's not your kid, it's not your choice. It's funny how so many of the people making comments about her climbing while pregnant are the same people who would be pissed off if the goverment tried to make choices for them about how act when pregnant.
Think about it you self-righteous pricks.
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crackrn
Jan 10, 2007, 5:14 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: don't know about y'all, but if my wife tried climbing during her pregnancy I'd beat the crap out of her.
Okay, was that a post just to be inflammatory? Because if it was, it was non-responsive and worthless; hardly worth risking the carpal tunnel syndrome to type it. If it wasn't then it was archaic and in fact, criminal. I wonder if your wife knows you were capable of such a disgusting sentiment.
(This post was edited by crackrn on Jan 10, 2007, 5:15 PM)
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petsfed
Jan 10, 2007, 5:22 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: I am not going to do the research since this topic doesn' t really warrent that much effort, but I would hazard to guess if anyone did, your results would show just as many lawsuits won by the man when it came to protecting his financial interests.
When in fact it wouldn't. The deck has always been stacked against men in that regard. Now, wikipedia is not exactly an encyclopedia of case law, but it still has zero mention of any cases where a man has successfully sued in such a case. This has long been lamented. There is a clear inequality in laws regarding sex crime and child support. Male rape victims (the do exist) can still be forced to pay child support. Likewise if the woman manages to acquire some sperm and use it to impregnate herself. If she demands a paternity test, the sperm's provider has to pay. That much has been affirmed by the courts. So if a man who fathered a child unwillingly has no legal backing, where does that put a man who wanted to have the kid, whom the courts will deem "prepared and accepting" of the financial risk and responsibility?
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coppertone
Jan 10, 2007, 5:30 PM
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natec wrote: Climbing is ripe with self-righteousness and judgement of others. It's disguisting. What's more disguisting is that these people feel as though they have some need or right to sound off about the actions of others, even when these actions have no affect on the person standing on the soapbox. So what if she's climbing while pregnant. So what if you and I don't agree with it. What makes you feel that it's necessary to voice your opinion? It's not your kid, it's not your choice. It's funny how so many of the people making comments about her climbing while pregnant are the same people who would be pissed off if the goverment tried to make choices for them about how act when pregnant. Think about it you self-righteous pricks.
Nice attitude. It is a discussion board hence the discussion. People actually come to these boards, sometimes, to talk about things of interest and importance. Forums would be pretty boring and of no use if there were not any discussion going on.
In this case you are right it is no ones business what the parents decide to do, however there is nothing wrong with discussing their decission in a civil matter.
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zeke_sf
Jan 10, 2007, 5:44 PM
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nah, just using a little humor to point out how very "useful" this discussion has become. it's merely a reflex test at this point, but go on and solve this one for us. put it in the bag, rc.com, so the world can breathe easier. yes, beating women is not funny, but do you really need me to point how my statement was ironic? also, gosh, my wife thinks I'm a living saint, what the fuck will I ever do, crackrn? isn't this stuff supposed to go in soapbox anyway?
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natec
Jan 10, 2007, 6:24 PM
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coppertone wrote: natec wrote: Climbing is ripe with self-righteousness and judgement of others. It's disguisting. What's more disguisting is that these people feel as though they have some need or right to sound off about the actions of others, even when these actions have no affect on the person standing on the soapbox. So what if she's climbing while pregnant. So what if you and I don't agree with it. What makes you feel that it's necessary to voice your opinion? It's not your kid, it's not your choice. It's funny how so many of the people making comments about her climbing while pregnant are the same people who would be pissed off if the goverment tried to make choices for them about how act when pregnant. Think about it you self-righteous pricks. Nice attitude. It is a discussion board hence the discussion. People actually come to these boards, sometimes, to talk about things of interest and importance. Forums would be pretty boring and of no use if there were not any discussion going on. In this case you are right it is no ones business what the parents decide to do, however there is nothing wrong with discussing their decission in a civil matter.
There's quite a difference between discussion and public and open criticizm of another individual's free choices.
There are a lot of things to discuss in an open and positive light on this board. Calling out someone who's name and face is in a photo and then continuing to criticize this person is much different than discussing a hypothetical situation.
If you had ever met me in person you would see that my attitude is quite nice actually and that there are plenty of members from RC.com and the climbing "community" as a whole who would account for that.
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crimpandgo
Jan 10, 2007, 7:19 PM
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petsfed wrote: crimpandgo wrote: I am not going to do the research since this topic doesn' t really warrent that much effort, but I would hazard to guess if anyone did, your results would show just as many lawsuits won by the man when it came to protecting his financial interests. When in fact it wouldn't. The deck has always been stacked against men in that regard. Now, wikipedia is not exactly an encyclopedia of case law, but it still has zero mention of any cases where a man has successfully sued in such a case. This has long been lamented. There is a clear inequality in laws regarding sex crime and child support. Male rape victims (the do exist) can still be forced to pay child support. Likewise if the woman manages to acquire some sperm and use it to impregnate herself. If she demands a paternity test, the sperm's provider has to pay. That much has been affirmed by the courts. So if a man who fathered a child unwillingly has no legal backing, where does that put a man who wanted to have the kid, whom the courts will deem "prepared and accepting" of the financial risk and responsibility?
web searching gets you no credability. topics posted on the web are often biased towards the loudest screamer and the largest cases.
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crimpandgo
Jan 10, 2007, 7:23 PM
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dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: See, its not really about the woman at all. When she's carrying the fetus it is. DMT
So, when an egg is fertiized outside the woman,,, Now what is the rule??
Unfortunately, pregnancy isn't such a "divine" thing anymore since artificial fertization procedures and cloning are being practice. Clearly different cases, but all must be considered when talking parental rights and responsibilities.
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iamthewallress
Jan 10, 2007, 7:35 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: See, its not really about the woman at all. When she's carrying the fetus it is. DMT So, when an egg is fertiized outside the woman,,, Now what is the rule??
When the embryo tranforms itself into a fetus in vitro and becomes a baby by way of decanting instead of by via violent passage through a woman's reproductive system, then I guess all genders will be entitled to an equal vote. We don't live in that Brave New World just yet though.
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br
Jan 10, 2007, 7:41 PM
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can someone please kill this thread. I am tired of seeing it
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dingus
Jan 10, 2007, 8:18 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: See, its not really about the woman at all. When she's carrying the fetus it is. DMT So, when an egg is fertiized outside the woman,,, Now what is the rule??
When she is CARRYING the fetus SHE decides. It is her body. Thought I was clear about that.
In reply to: Unfortunately, pregnancy isn't such a "divine" thing anymore since artificial fertization procedures and cloning are being practice.
It never was.
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Jan 10, 2007, 8:19 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: crimpandgo wrote: dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: See, its not really about the woman at all. When she's carrying the fetus it is. DMT So, when an egg is fertiized outside the woman,,, Now what is the rule?? When the embryo tranforms itself into a fetus in vitro and becomes a baby by way of decanting instead of by via violent passage through a woman's reproductive system, then I guess all genders will be entitled to an equal vote. We don't live in that Brave New World just yet though.
Agreed.
DMT
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sidepull
Jan 10, 2007, 8:45 PM
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natec wrote: coppertone wrote: natec wrote: Climbing is ripe with self-righteousness and judgement of others. It's disguisting. What's more disguisting is that these people feel as though they have some need or right to sound off about the actions of others, even when these actions have no affect on the person standing on the soapbox. So what if she's climbing while pregnant. So what if you and I don't agree with it. What makes you feel that it's necessary to voice your opinion? It's not your kid, it's not your choice. It's funny how so many of the people making comments about her climbing while pregnant are the same people who would be pissed off if the goverment tried to make choices for them about how act when pregnant. Think about it you self-righteous pricks. Nice attitude. It is a discussion board hence the discussion. People actually come to these boards, sometimes, to talk about things of interest and importance. Forums would be pretty boring and of no use if there were not any discussion going on. In this case you are right it is no ones business what the parents decide to do, however there is nothing wrong with discussing their decission in a civil matter. There's quite a difference between discussion and public and open criticizm of another individual's free choices. There are a lot of things to discuss in an open and positive light on this board. Calling out someone who's name and face is in a photo and then continuing to criticize this person is much different than discussing a hypothetical situation. If you had ever met me in person you would see that my attitude is quite nice actually and that there are plenty of members from RC.com and the climbing "community" as a whole who would account for that.
Odd, so you're admitting that you act like a prick on the internet but you seem to disallow others the right to do the same?
At best your first post was one of the most broadly judgemental posts in the entire thread.
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natec
Jan 10, 2007, 9:04 PM
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sidepull wrote: Odd, so you're admitting that you act like a prick on the internet but you seem to disallow others the right to do the same? At best your first post was one of the most broadly judgemental posts in the entire thread.
I don't see where I stated that I'm acting like a prick, or that I don't allow others to do so.
It's the opposite really. I'm not acting like a prick. I didn't ask for the thread to be removed, or for anyone to be censored. I didn't single out any person either. Perhaps my tone cannot be guaged because it is in type.
Could you please explain how my post was broadly judgemental? I singled out no specific person or post but simply pointed out that vocal judgement of one another on all things seems to be a standard within climbing that doesn't exist in other sports. I don't see how my statement was judgemental. It was much more of an observation. An observation that I stated strongly so as to get some people to think twice before they post.
I'm sorry if it doesn't sit well with you.
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crimpandgo
Jan 10, 2007, 10:27 PM
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dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: See, its not really about the woman at all. When she's carrying the fetus it is. DMT So, when an egg is fertiized outside the woman,,, Now what is the rule?? When she is CARRYING the fetus SHE decides. It is her body. Thought I was clear about that. In reply to: Unfortunately, pregnancy isn't such a "divine" thing anymore since artificial fertization procedures and cloning are being practice. It never was. Cheers DMT
You were clear, but your arguement is incomplete.. If she is smoking crack she doesn't get to decide.. So therefore just because SHE is carrying doesn't have anything to do with the issue.
the issue becomes that act she is performing and how it affects the infant..
the timing of this is interesting because I was reading an article on the definition of crime. The general public survey said a crime is defined when "harm" is done to another.
So, by that definition, many folks here can conclude the activity the women does while carrying could be considered a crime (harmful) to the fetus.
(This post was edited by crimpandgo on Jan 10, 2007, 10:31 PM)
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crackrn
Jan 10, 2007, 10:32 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: nah, just using a little humor to point out how very "useful" this discussion has become. it's merely a reflex test at this point, but go on and solve this one for us. put it in the bag, rc.com, so the world can breathe easier. yes, beating women is not funny, but do you really need me to point how my statement was ironic? also, gosh, my wife thinks I'm a living saint, what the fuck will I ever do, crackrn? isn't this stuff supposed to go in soapbox anyway?
Guess I didn't see the humor. But you are right...this was soapbox material a long time ago.
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dingus
Jan 10, 2007, 10:57 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: So, by that definition, many folks here can conclude the activity the women does while carrying could be considered a crime (harmful) to the fetus.
A crime is defined by a law. For example, smoking crack is illegal, climbing pregnant is not.
Cheers
DMT
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awilson86
Jan 10, 2007, 11:06 PM
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what ever happened to wives and husbands listening and respecting each other?
no woner divorce rate is so high in america. no one seems to listen to their wedding vows anymore.
and if you want to speak legally, if a child is placed in danger by a parent, the government can legally take the child away from the parent.
but its just a fetus right?
i would ask 1 question. how would the parent of the "fetus" (child) think if something happened and it died? that ought to be reason enough to no climb with pregnant.
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erisspirit
Jan 10, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Shes not leading anymore, shes not falling, shes not stressing herself out, has her husbands support, and has the approval from her doctor. With all that I don't see a problem with it. True she can fall on a top rope, but she could also trip over the house dog and fall straight onto her belly (happened to my boyfriends mom... he was just fine). I think if she was doing something horrible (like smoking crack) her Doctor might have something to say about it.
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climbsomething
Jan 10, 2007, 11:54 PM
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awilson86 wrote: what ever happened to wives and husbands listening and respecting each other? no woner divorce rate is so high in america. no one seems to listen to their wedding vows anymore. and if you want to speak legally, if a child is placed in danger by a parent, the government can legally take the child away from the parent. but its just a fetus right? i would ask 1 question. how would the parent of the "fetus" (child) think if something happened and it died? that ought to be reason enough to no climb with pregnant.
Perhaps (!) you missed the post from the husband/father where he explicitly said he supported the activity and they had their doctor's ok?
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Jan 11, 2007, 12:01 AM)
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clausti
Jan 11, 2007, 1:19 AM
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crackrn wrote: zeke_sf wrote: nah, just using a little humor to point out how very "useful" this discussion has become. it's merely a reflex test at this point, but go on and solve this one for us. put it in the bag, rc.com, so the world can breathe easier. yes, beating women is not funny, but do you really need me to point how my statement was ironic? also, gosh, my wife thinks I'm a living saint, what the fuck will I ever do, crackrn? isn't this stuff supposed to go in soapbox anyway? Guess I didn't see the humor. But you are right...this was soapbox material a long time ago.
if his Irony World wife were to climb while pregnant, she would risk losing the fetus. for which he would beat the crap out of her.... and probably cause her to lose the fetus. i gotta say that the original comment was pretty transparently sarcastic. might i note this as another occasion where the lack of an eye roll smily is unacceptable?
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curt
Jan 11, 2007, 1:43 AM
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br wrote: can someone please kill this thread. I am tired of seeing it
What do you suppose would happen if you stopped reading it?
Curt
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her
Jan 11, 2007, 2:46 AM
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As a pregnant woman myself... looking at this picture makes me want to vomit and for once it's not from morning sickness. It's women like this that have horrible things happen to their children and then blame "God" for causing them. I want to drive to this woman's house and punch her in the belly. Hopefully this will cause a still birth and prevent a lifetime of pain for her child.
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jt512
Jan 11, 2007, 3:02 AM
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her wrote: As a pregnant woman myself... looking at this picture makes me want to vomit and for once it's not from morning sickness. It's women like this that have horrible things happen to their children and then blame "God" for causing them. I want to drive to this woman's house and punch her in the belly. Hopefully this will cause a still birth and prevent a lifetime of pain for her child.
This reminds me of that ol' prairie song. Altogether now:
Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'
Though the streams are swollen
Keep them dogies trollin'
Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'
Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'
Jay
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thespider
Jan 11, 2007, 3:10 AM
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TROLLHIDE!
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kriso9tails
Jan 11, 2007, 4:19 AM
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her wrote: As a pregnant woman myself... looking at this picture makes me want to vomit and for once it's not from morning sickness. It's women like this that have horrible things happen to their children and then blame "God" for causing them. I want to drive to this woman's house and punch her in the belly. Hopefully this will cause a still birth and prevent a lifetime of pain for her child.
I don't know; I'm more concerned about your frivolous driving and the whole global warming thing than I am about a woman getting a little exercise while pregnant. Even if climbing while pregnant (as shown in the pic) was all that dangerous, I can't imagine it's anywhere near as dangerous as punching another pregnant woman in the gut (given that other people tend to punch back). To be honest, you should go out climbing to work out some of that pent up range before you get that unborn child of yours killed.
(Le sigh) I almost wish you were a real person... I'm sort of having fun trying to imagine what such a fantastic asshole would look like in real life.
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thespider
Jan 11, 2007, 1:52 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: her wrote: As a pregnant woman myself... looking at this picture makes me want to vomit and for once it's not from morning sickness. It's women like this that have horrible things happen to their children and then blame "God" for causing them. I want to drive to this woman's house and punch her in the belly. Hopefully this will cause a still birth and prevent a lifetime of pain for her child. I don't know; I'm more concerned about your frivolous driving and the whole global warming thing than I am about a woman getting a little exercise while pregnant. Even if climbing while pregnant (as shown in the pic) was all that dangerous, I can't imagine it's anywhere near as dangerous as punching another pregnant woman in the gut (given that other people tend to punch back). To be honest, you should go out climbing to work out some of that pent up range before you get that unborn child of yours killed. (Le sigh) I almost wish you were a real person... I'm sort of having fun trying to imagine what such a fantastic asshole would look like in real life.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ouldering_83030.html
aimeerose wrote: I'm about 7 months pregnant now, but still getting to the gym and the Pit when the weather's nice. Assuming this is a permanent situation with your hubby, we'll be looking for a 3rd a lot once the baby is born (although it might entail some baby holding...) Actually, we're kind of considering getting a "climbing nanny". Have any intereste in that?
Are you guys sure you want a kid? I think what you really need is a dog. Or maybe adopt a little chinese boy so he can do your finances and clean the house while your climbing.
(This post was edited by thespider on Jan 11, 2007, 4:06 PM)
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crackrn
Jan 11, 2007, 2:11 PM
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clausti wrote: crackrn wrote: zeke_sf wrote: nah, just using a little humor to point out how very "useful" this discussion has become. it's merely a reflex test at this point, but go on and solve this one for us. put it in the bag, rc.com, so the world can breathe easier. yes, beating women is not funny, but do you really need me to point how my statement was ironic? also, gosh, my wife thinks I'm a living saint, what the fuck will I ever do, crackrn? isn't this stuff supposed to go in soapbox anyway? Guess I didn't see the humor. But you are right...this was soapbox material a long time ago. if his Irony World wife were to climb while pregnant, she would risk losing the fetus. for which he would beat the crap out of her.... and probably cause her to lose the fetus. i gotta say that the original comment was pretty transparently sarcastic. might i note this as another occasion where the lack of an eye roll smily is unacceptable?
I usually have a keen sense of the sarcastic, and/or troll post. Guess I must have not had my coffee at that point.
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crimpandgo
Jan 11, 2007, 3:26 PM
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dingus wrote: crimpandgo wrote: So, by that definition, many folks here can conclude the activity the women does while carrying could be considered a crime (harmful) to the fetus. A crime is defined by a law. For example, smoking crack is illegal, climbing pregnant is not. Cheers DMT
I agree......
Peace :)
(This post was edited by crimpandgo on Jan 11, 2007, 3:30 PM)
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ccox
Jan 11, 2007, 5:07 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: ccox wrote: murf wrote: aimeerose wrote: That's right, angry, I could have free soloed this climb. There was no way I was going to fall on it, hence I was leading it. I have literally done this climb hundreds of times. I stopped leading anything I had the potential to fall on as soon as I knew I was pregnant! I even took a month climbing trip to spain and led one climb the whole time. I was hardly showing (not needing the body harness yet) and it was frustrating following some of the overhanging climbs, but that was the right decision in my opinion. So when you posted the picture, did you have a mental bet with yourself how long it would take until you were criticized? I mean, you knew this was gonna happen right? So my question would be what was the point of posting it? -Murf Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. Some things should be kept private, cuz she's just asking for it. Before I reply, take into account: jonzoclimber wrote: wildly inaprorpriate jesus christ woman... if you fell you could destroy your child's life if not kill it. I think this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen on this website. and fearlessclimber wrote: go ahead and risk it woman, if you cant take off climbing for your child your a freakin pig. not the brightest idea To expect criticism is one thing, but to be called a "freakin' pig"? Just because someone leaves you an opening to be an asshole, doesn't mean you have to be an asshole... nor does it excuse it. What's the point in posting the picture? What's the point in posting any picture; to share something. I don't understand the statement "Some things should be kept private, cuz she's just asking for it." First off, what here needs to be kept private? Climbing? Being pregnant? Second, asking for it? Asking for what exactly? 'Cause really, I think most people are generally asking for other people to have a sense of decency, but really, I think people should start demanding it since it's not that unreasonable. And if I were married and you called my pregnant wife a pig to her face you'd be eating your fucking teeth.
The photo should have been kept private because she must have known some people would disapprove. Now she's got friends starting threads to defend her and getting even more undeserved attention. The mother and the baby could suffer from all this unnecessary stress. If the photo had been kept off RC.com, Amie would not have to defend her actions, and she may sleep better at night.
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thespider
Jan 11, 2007, 5:10 PM
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I kinda doubt she places so much concern for what is said online. At least I hope...
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sidepull
Jan 11, 2007, 5:22 PM
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natec wrote: sidepull wrote: Odd, so you're admitting that you act like a prick on the internet but you seem to disallow others the right to do the same? At best your first post was one of the most broadly judgemental posts in the entire thread. I don't see where I stated that I'm acting like a prick, or that I don't allow others to do so. It's the opposite really. I'm not acting like a prick. I didn't ask for the thread to be removed, or for anyone to be censored. I didn't single out any person either. Perhaps my tone cannot be guaged because it is in type. Could you please explain how my post was broadly judgemental? I singled out no specific person or post but simply pointed out that vocal judgement of one another on all things seems to be a standard within climbing that doesn't exist in other sports. I don't see how my statement was judgemental. It was much more of an observation. An observation that I stated strongly so as to get some people to think twice before they post. I'm sorry if it doesn't sit well with you.
I guess I apologize to everyone else in this thread for this tangential debate (I should probably do this via PM).
Natec, thank you for proving my point. Broadly judgemental means exactly what you said, you don't single out any one person, instead you judge an entire community of people who pursue a sport. Calling it an observation is strictly semantics, the same way radical Muslims observe that all Americans are heathens or extreme conservatives consider all liberals as Satan's spawn. Of course, it's always easy to find motes when suffering from beams, yes?
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kriso9tails
Jan 11, 2007, 6:18 PM
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ccox wrote: The photo should have been kept private because she must have known some people would disapprove. Now she's got friends starting threads to defend her and getting even more undeserved attention. The mother and the baby could suffer from all this unnecessary stress. If the photo had been kept off RC.com, Amie would not have to defend her actions, and she may sleep better at night.
Don't get me wrong; I don't entirely disagree that if you post something in a public forum you have to be braced for some public criticism. What I'm saying is that in principle, nothing here needs to be kept private, and that any criticisms should be kept civil and appropriate.
In reality we live in a community where pricks just talk shit about other people witout much restraint, but here's the rub: as members of that community we are, in part, responsible for the shape that community takes, and thus are also equally responsible in defining a reality where a woman is called a 'pig' for doing what she has every right to do.
To spare you from a really really long tirade, I have a choice between siding with a principle or siding with my current reality, but since that reality is one I helped create (even if by doing nothing more than abiding by it) I might as well just try to reshape said reality by siding with my principle.
Point being: if I have to tell someone to not post pictures because someone else wants to be a jerk, or tell someone else not to be a jerk because someone else wants to post pictures, guess which one I'm going to do.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Jan 11, 2007, 7:15 PM)
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bizarrodrinker
Jan 11, 2007, 6:41 PM
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All of this banter seems moot. Obviously the woman is going to climb regardless of who approves or dosapproves and she is obviously prepared to deal with any consequences (whatever they may be and if any).
Lets just hope that she shows the same dedication to her child as she does to her climbing. Climb on girl!
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ma4
Jan 11, 2007, 6:45 PM
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I posted to Aimee last night to tell her NOT to listen to the ignorants, but to her own body. When I was pregnant for my third child, I had to walk away from a guy who was wondering why I continued to run, bike, climb while pregnant. He kept hounding me saying how UNHEALTHY it was for the baby. It wasn't his hounding that made me walk away though, it was HIS PREGNANT wife walking towards us. She was drinking a BEER AND SMOKING a cigarette, wanting to get in on our debate! Should have mention that to you last night Aimee. Keep going girl u look great in the photo!
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photon
Jan 11, 2007, 7:45 PM
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no not a pig (pregnant climbing is fine)
how about intolerable abrasive know it all? seems a lot more accurate
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dingus
Jan 11, 2007, 9:55 PM
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You too Crimpster.
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Jan 11, 2007, 10:01 PM
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bizarrodrinker wrote: All of this banter seems moot.
If we reach even one 20-something dude who has been taught that women serve men, then nothing in this thread is moot.
The whole 'its none of your business because its not your body' didn't make sense to me until properly explained. And for some of us, me incl., it maybe came as a shock to realize the truth of the matter... our mate could/can elect to have an abortion and there is NOTHING we can do about it.
What I learned is that freedom of choice and self-possession is bedrock, a fundamental US Citizen right and none of you can take that away.
I don't think that point is moot at all and it will damn sure not be moot with my daughters.
DMT
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natec
Jan 11, 2007, 10:09 PM
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sidepull wrote: natec wrote: sidepull wrote: Odd, so you're admitting that you act like a prick on the internet but you seem to disallow others the right to do the same? At best your first post was one of the most broadly judgemental posts in the entire thread. I don't see where I stated that I'm acting like a prick, or that I don't allow others to do so. It's the opposite really. I'm not acting like a prick. I didn't ask for the thread to be removed, or for anyone to be censored. I didn't single out any person either. Perhaps my tone cannot be guaged because it is in type. Could you please explain how my post was broadly judgemental? I singled out no specific person or post but simply pointed out that vocal judgement of one another on all things seems to be a standard within climbing that doesn't exist in other sports. I don't see how my statement was judgemental. It was much more of an observation. An observation that I stated strongly so as to get some people to think twice before they post. I'm sorry if it doesn't sit well with you. I guess I apologize to everyone else in this thread for this tangential debate (I should probably do this via PM). Natec, thank you for proving my point. Broadly judgemental means exactly what you said, you don't single out any one person, instead you judge an entire community of people who pursue a sport. Calling it an observation is strictly semantics, the same way radical Muslims observe that all Americans are heathens or extreme conservatives consider all liberals as Satan's spawn. Of course, it's always easy to find motes when suffering from beams, yes?
Sidepull, if you need more proof that my first statement about climbing being ripe with judgement of its members please read this thread. Many of the comments are borderline libelous, aside from being unnecessary.
If you are going to try and turn this into an argument of semantics go right ahead. My original post was a statement of my observations and a complaint. I did not condemn anyone for their words or actions but instead lamented the fact that I can't read about climbing related topics anywhere without having to hear someone's harsh disapproval of the actions of others. Many times about issues that don't relate to climbing at all.
The definition of judgement as it applies to this usage is "an official ruling". This hardly applies to my statements.
The definition of observation is "a remark, comment, or statement based on what one has noticed or observed". This most certainly applies in this case.
As my statement is evidenced by the posts rampant throughout this thread and others I will no longer bother to argue semantics with you. I will state that I passed no judgement on anyone, activity or thing, and simply lamented (however fervently) my observation and called for those particiapating to think before they so harshly criticize another for matters that don't concern them.
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rokgot
Jan 11, 2007, 10:16 PM
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dingus wrote: ... our mate could/can elect to have an abortion and there is NOTHING we can do about it ... What I learned is that freedom of choice ... DMT
exactly, whether a woman wants to kill her child thru abortion or thru an unforeseen climbing accident then it is her choice alone
she just has 9 months to decide, then it would be against the law to hurt the kid if she wanted to
bill
(This post was edited by rokgot on Jan 11, 2007, 10:17 PM)
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dingus
Jan 11, 2007, 10:26 PM
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rokgot wrote: exactly, whether a woman wants to kill her child thru abortion or thru an unforeseen climbing accident then it is her choice alone
Oh you cute little troll!
DMT
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jonzoclimber
Jan 12, 2007, 4:10 AM
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Well if I've learned anything from starting all this chaos up in the picture/this forum/spawn threads, it's that babies are the trigger point for many people's passion. I'm glad some people stood up for how they actually felt and defended my original point (except for the dick who called her a pig). People who can simply brush the points off that we are making, good for you, you aren't passionate about the issue. Not saying you are wrong, you're simply not personally invested in the argument at hand (it clearly has gone beyond Aimee herself and has turned into prego climbing in general). Don't brush off valid points! bad choices should be judged or nobody would learn anything until something bad happened...
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bizarrodrinker
Jan 12, 2007, 12:31 PM
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dingus wrote: bizarrodrinker wrote: All of this banter seems moot. If we reach even one 20-something dude who has been taught that women serve men, then nothing in this thread is moot. The whole 'its none of your business because its not your body' didn't make sense to me until properly explained. And for some of us, me incl., it maybe came as a shock to realize the truth of the matter... our mate could/can elect to have an abortion and there is NOTHING we can do about it. What I learned is that freedom of choice and self-possession is bedrock, a fundamental US Citizen right and none of you can take that away. I don't think that point is moot at all and it will damn sure not be moot with my daughters. DMT
I totally agree. I wasn't implying anything to the contrary. But people are going to believe what they believe no matter what you or I say to them whether for religious, political or other reasons, and on a topic such as this, no amount of lecturing, arguing or otherwise contradictory propaganda is going to change their thoughts. So in that respect the argument is moot.
I don't believe that women serve men at all. In fact, I find little else more attractive (other than a female climber/snowboarder) than a girl who stands up for herself and makes her own path in the world. Unfortunately many women are conditioned to think otherwise. Its a shame.
So like I said Climb on girl!
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rokgot
Jan 12, 2007, 3:46 PM
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Registered: Dec 11, 2006
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dingus wrote: Oh you cute little troll! DMT
Oh you nasty little dingus-berry!
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boardline22
Jan 12, 2007, 9:30 PM
Post #178 of 187
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Registered: Feb 18, 2005
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Is this considered hyper-gravity training?
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sidepull
Jan 13, 2007, 4:44 AM
Post #179 of 187
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Here are a couple more thoughts. I realize some of these will rub people the wrong way because they might seem inconsistent with what might be called the climbing ethos, but that's part of the reason for me posting these thoughts:
1) The pic, just as a pic, without all of the debate and hoo-ha, was never an aesthetically pleasing pic.
2) The pic of her bouldering at 7 months pregnant is more disturbing from a probability of injury standpoint than the lead picture for two reasons: 1) you fall more often bouldering and 2) she's two months farther along (more weight + more fetal development)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ouldering_83030.html
[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/7/299537-largest_Image009.jpg[/image]
3) The first reaction of every non-climber I've shown this too is exactly that described by Lena-Chita: impressed surprised (wow - that's incredible) and mild horror (she really shouldn't be doing that).
4) There's still a lot of pro-choice rhetoric in this forum which I find ironic because both the future mother and father have posted here indicating that A) they're in a trusting committed relationship in which the partners make mutual decisions and B) they wanted to actually have a baby. This isn't a legal argument, it's the result of a loving relationship. If there's anything at all redeeming about this thread it's the fact they've shown that they don't need the legal system to declare what is right for a pregnant woman, instead, like loving people do, they discussed things and made a mutual committed decision. You don't read anywhere where Aimee uses "it's my body" rhetoric. It just doesn't apply here, period.
4) Sadly, this is perhaps the most insightful post:thespider wrote: Are you guys sure you want a kid? I think what you really need is a dog.
But here there's another "potential life" involved. (This isn't a pro-life argument. The fact of the matter is that both mother and father are planning on having this child and they explicit weighed the risk to climbing ratio (e.g. added a body harness, provided a soft belay, chose an easier route) based upon the notion that there was another life involved.) This is why thespyder's post is poignant: because many people posting here don't understand responsibility that extends beyond their wingspan. That's one of the reason's why dogs are so easily integrated into the climbing ethos - because we don't have to bring them into our calculations. They don't care if we crater - not in a cognitive, rational, "holy cow, who's going to feed me?" And we don't think, "if I crater, who will play frisbee with my pooch?" We just bring them along and let them sniff other climber's butts and urinate on their gear. The point is we don't consider the dog that much because in climbing it's all about "ME." I doubt there' s any picture on this site that shows this sentiment more fully.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Jan 14, 2007, 2:56 AM
Post #180 of 187
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Registered: Jun 27, 2006
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sidepull wrote: 4) Sadly, this is perhaps the most insightful post: thespider wrote: Are you guys sure you want a kid? I think what you really need is a dog. Why would I say that particularly when thespider tends to only incite people? Because, it hits at the heart of the climbing ethos - selfishness. Climbing is a selfish pursuit and this picture demonstrates a level of selfishness that really pushes this ethos to the extreme. If you fully buy into the climbing way of life then your blinders are on and looking at this picture you think, "that's awesome. when i'm pregnant (or if my girl friend is pregnant) I hope I'm (she's) doing that too." Why? Because the act of climbing is more important than the risk. Note that this isn't a "there's .01% chance the rock will break" risk. The "climbing > risk" equation is something we determine everytime we go out and it holds so often we don't think about it. But here there's another "potential life" involved. (This isn't a pro-life argument. The fact of the matter is that both mother and father are planning on having this child and they explicit weighed the risk to climbing ratio (e.g. added a body harness, provided a soft belay, chose an easier route) based upon the notion that there was another life involved.) This is why thespyder's post is poignant: because many people posting here don't understand responsibility that extends beyond their wingspan. That's one of the reason's why dogs are so easily integrated into the climbing ethos - because we don't have to bring them into our calculations. They don't care if we crater - not in a cognitive, rational, "holy cow, who's going to feed me?" And we don't think, "if I crater, who will play frisbee with my pooch?" We just bring them along and let them sniff other climber's butts and urinate on their gear. The point is we don't consider the dog that much because in climbing it's all about "ME." I doubt there' s any picture on this site that shows this sentiment more fully.
Wow, sidepull, I'm curious now: do you have kids, or did you get this insight in some other way?
B/c you have put your finger precisely on something that I have been thinking but couldn't say without muddying it up to the point of being incomprehensible, so I have decided not to say it at all.
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climbsomething
Jan 14, 2007, 3:26 AM
Post #181 of 187
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Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
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sidepull wrote: 1) The pic, just as a pic, without all of the debate andhoo-ha, was never an aesthetically pleasing pic.
In reply to: 3) The first reaction of every non-climber I've shown this too is exactly that described by Lena-Chita: impressed surprised (wow - that's incredible) and mild horror (she really shouldn't be doing that).
In reply to: If there's anything at all redeeming about this thread it's the fact they've shown that they don't need the legal system to declare what is right for a pregnant woman, instead, like loving people do, they discussed things and made a mutual committed decision.
In reply to: 4) Sadly, this is perhaps the most insightful post: thespider wrote: Are you guys sure you want a kid? I think what you really need is a dog. Why would I say that particularly when thespider tends to only incite people? Because, it hits at the heart of the climbing ethos - selfishness. Climbing is a selfish pursuit and this picture demonstrates a level of selfishness that really pushes this ethos to the extreme. If you fully buy into the climbing way of life then your blinders are on and looking at this picture you think, "that's awesome. when i'm pregnant (or if my girl friend is pregnant) I hope I'm (she's) doing that too." Why? Because the act of climbing is more important than the risk. Note that this isn't a "there's .01% chance the rock will break" risk. The "climbing > risk" equation is something we determine everytime we go out and it holds so often we don't think about it. But here there's another "potential life" involved. (This isn't a pro-life argument. The fact of the matter is that both mother and father are planning on having this child and they explicit weighed the risk to climbing ratio (e.g. added a body harness, provided a soft belay, chose an easier route) based upon the notion that there was another life involved.) This is why thespyder's post is poignant: because many people posting here don't understand responsibility that extends beyond their wingspan. That's one of the reason's why dogs are so easily integrated into the climbing ethos - because we don't have to bring them into our calculations. They don't care if we crater - not in a cognitive, rational, "holy cow, who's going to feed me?" And we don't think, "if I crater, who will play frisbee with my pooch?" We just bring them along and let them sniff other climber's butts and urinate on their gear. The point is we don't consider the dog that much because in climbing it's all about "ME." I doubt there' s any picture on this site that shows this sentiment more fully.
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kriso9tails
Jan 15, 2007, 3:31 AM
Post #183 of 187
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Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
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thespider wrote: climbsomething wrote: thespider is incapable of making an intelligent and insightful post. You just can't take my outright thruthiness. 
I'm gonna need some superstantial evidence to back up any truthiness claims.
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jimfix
Jan 15, 2007, 3:50 AM
Post #184 of 187
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Registered: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 314
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8 pages and only two posts that even mention helmets as an issue. Considering most of the smack talk is about safety, that’s pretty odd. I guess yo’all do want her messing up her hair.
Anywho, all climbers take risks, that’s the point of extreme sports (yeah, I said it, flame away) like rock climbing. We all evaluate the risk and make our decisions based on it.
I'm sure any pregnant climber knows the risk to their cherub as well as the increased risks to themselves. That’s probably why most stick to TR.
I can say I would climb pregnant, but not being a woman, I'll never have to make that choice.
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kriso9tails
Jan 15, 2007, 3:56 AM
Post #185 of 187
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Registered: Jul 1, 2001
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jimfix wrote: 8 pages and only two posts that even mention helmets as an issue.
That's because they aren't an issue. I mean, how do you even get a helmet on an unborn child anyway?
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bizarrodrinker
Jan 15, 2007, 1:19 PM
Post #186 of 187
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Registered: Dec 20, 2005
Posts: 2316
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jimfix wrote: 8 pages and only two posts that even mention helmets as an issue. Considering most of the smack talk is about safety, that’s pretty odd. I guess yo’all do want her messing up her hair.
She's doing a single pitch sport climb. Odds are the belayer is more likely to need the helmet.
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HepCat
Jan 27, 2007, 6:03 PM
Post #187 of 187
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Registered: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 10
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Photos of my stomach sticking out always embarass me. Those are the first deleted from our digitals. Way to be proud.
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. 
