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majid_sabet
Mar 22, 2007, 7:23 AM
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published Date: 20 March 2007
A CLIMBER is suing the operators of a Portsdown Hill activity centre after he suffered 'catastrophic' spinal injuries in a fall.
The High Court in London was told yesterday that Gary Poppleton and a group of friends were at Fort Purbrook, near Crookhorn, 'bouldering' – low-level free climbing without ropes – when he suffered spinal cord injuries that paralysed him from the neck down and confined him to a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
Mr Poppleton, 30, alleges the centre operators negligently failed to assess his climbing competence or warn of the dangers involved or provide
proper supervision.
The trustees of the Portsmouth Youth Activities Commission, a charity that operates the .............................
http://www.portsmouthtoday.co.uk/viewarticle.aspx?sectionid=455&articleid=2133152
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bent_gate
Mar 22, 2007, 9:44 AM
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How can this happen in the land of:
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
---Dick, Shakespeare's Henry VI
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overlord
Mar 22, 2007, 12:01 PM
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i guess i WAS lucky.
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jammer
Mar 22, 2007, 12:34 PM
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It really burns me when someone sues over their incompetence. Anyone who even knows about climbing knows that there is a danger that goes along with the activity. It's as stupid as trying out for the boxing team and getting a concussion then suing the gym for letting them box.
STUPID I TELL YA!
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sevrdhed
Mar 22, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Based on the crappy writing in that news report, it sounds like he tried to dyno from one wall to the other. That would make sense as far as how paralyzation had happened. If he caught a hold, spun horizontal, then dropped, I could see it. That really sucks to be him though... I feel bad for the guy. Suing, however.... well, I'd have to hear a little more of the specific circumstances before judging that.
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taydude
Mar 22, 2007, 1:06 PM
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It doesn't exactly sound like he was dynoing but who knows( the reporter certainly doesn't). Also in the article he says that customers can boulder 4m off the ground w/o a rope. This doesn't concern me much 4m isnt very high if you have adaquate padding. It does concern me that this "activity center" seems to not give any kind of instruction before they let people climb. Too bad they have almost no info on their site. 
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jammer
Mar 22, 2007, 1:35 PM
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I will say that I did not read the news report before responding to this thread. My response is the reaction I get every time I hear the word sue ... turns my stomach. I agree that there is a correct time to sue, but not because you did something wrong and got hurt. Ignorance is not an excuse in the court of law. As with any sport, there are dangers ... you accept them when you participate in that sport.
As for the climber, if this sounds cold, it is not because of the injury, rather, it is because of that persons decision to sue. Yes, that really sucks for him and I do feel bad for the dude, but that's not what this thread is about.
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kman
Mar 22, 2007, 1:43 PM
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Fucking ridiculous. When are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions? It's always some one elses fault right.
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majid_sabet
Mar 22, 2007, 4:50 PM
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overlord wrote: i guess i WAS lucky.
I had one who did it not even make it on 3 feet fall so ,you are lucky
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schveety
Mar 22, 2007, 5:15 PM
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I agree totally with kman - when are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions..... You don't need to be instructed in climbing to realize that falling from any height could result in injury......... especially someone who's 30........
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boredatwork
Mar 22, 2007, 5:29 PM
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When are people in general, not just climbers, going to take responsibility for their own lives and situations. We live in such an entitlement mentality world where the criminals/downtrodden/undereductated are victims of their own situation.
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pupjr
Mar 22, 2007, 5:36 PM
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To play Devil's Advocate, and to really troll around here. I'm going to say this: The guy is PARALYZED from the NECK down. He can't do anything on his own anymore. What you guys take for granted, is what this guy will NEVER be able to do. He can never know what it's like to feel the ground, or touch his loved ones.
He's suing to survive, imagine the cost of all medical bills, now until he finally dies and all the caregiving he needs. Rember, can't feed himself, can't dress himself, can't even wipe his own butt. It's going to be astronomical.
You guys bring up a big stink about it's his responsilbility, and how stupid he is, but did you once put yourself in his shoes? Would you honestly just shrug if you broke your neck, and say, "well that was my fault." I saw ONE person actually show some sort of sympathy for the guy. Way to go.
Now I'm not condoning suing everyone for every little thing. I think all the suing is stupid, and lots of people never think it was their own fault. Like spilling hot coffee on yourself.
As for the boxing analogy, it doesn't come close. Instead of the concussion replace it with becoming paralyzed from the neck down. Somehow, I think the guy wouldn't sue if he just got a concussion from bouldering.
That's my oppinion.
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dynosore
Mar 22, 2007, 5:36 PM
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The worst injury I've ever had was when I fell, ok, jumped from about 10 feet when I was younger. 5 months on crutches. Amazingly, I didn't sue anyone for MY stupidity.
This is a good reminder that falling is ALWAYS dangerous. For every miracle where someone limps away from a 20 footer, I suspect their are many more injuries that occur from <10ft falls.
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kman
Mar 22, 2007, 5:51 PM
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In reply to: The guy is PARALYZED from the NECK down
That does not mean it's not his fault. IT IS HIS FAULT HE IS PARALYZED, it's that simple. Yeah it would suck to have this happen but hey, the world is not a safe place to live in and this type of shit happens on a regular basis, along with many many many worse things through out the world we live in. Accept it.
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pupjr
Mar 22, 2007, 5:57 PM
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While you're pointing that finger around, turn it around and point it at yourself, what would you honestly do? I bet you wouldn't blame anyone else, cause you're better than that. Right?
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kman
Mar 22, 2007, 6:07 PM
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pupjr wrote: While you're pointing that finger around, turn it around and point it at yourself, what would you honestly do? I bet you wouldn't blame anyone else, cause you're better than that. Right?
riiiightt. I'm not "pointing that finger around", it's actually quite simple really. No point wasting time trying to convince you otherwise.
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crimpandgo
Mar 22, 2007, 6:21 PM
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pupjr wrote: While you're pointing that finger around, turn it around and point it at yourself, what would you honestly do? I bet you wouldn't blame anyone else, cause you're better than that. Right?
It doesn't matter who you point the finger at. The facility probably should have a no fault clause which means you climb at your own risk. Unless you can prove negligance of some sort which would be difficult with a person bouldering 5 feet off the ground, the gym should not be held accountable.
This is a freak accident that could happen anywhere. You gotta ask yourself. If you took a 5 footer at home while playing/working on a wall. would you sue the person that built the wall? or the person that put in the landscaping? No, you would say, how stupid could I be for putting myself in such a position. So, why is it when an accident happens in a public establishment, it automatically turns into a lawsuit?
I am not saying its wrong, It just bugs me when the rules change given the situation.
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winglessangel
Mar 22, 2007, 6:47 PM
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Hi there everyone,
I feel sorry for him. It is a terrible thing. Hope He can overcome his dificulties and things get better for him. It is sad to see things like that.
About the law suit. I understand what you are sayng, more and more people are overcrowding the justice sytem with stupid cases, like the coffee case that I heard it is a true story and the lady won.
But when it comes to sports and providers of sport services like a gym it is harder to separate was is a natural sport consequence and what is a negligence from the people involved.
compare 2 true stories:
sit #1: 3 years ago I was at the gym and landed wrongly after jumping out of a boulder problem. I sprained my foot (badly). I believed it was MY fault. But someone could say "Noooo, the gym should ALWAYS provide a instructor to spott you ALL THE TIME". Well, MY comon sense says that there is a diference between a structor and a freaking baby sitter. I needed cast, I had medical bills, but I did nothing.
sit #2: 6 weeks ago, diferent story. The gym also has many climbing workshops and outdoor classes. I decided to take an intermediate climbing course. Aid, trad, big wall, etc.
So, ascender class. first let's try it indoor. Rope is set up, I ascend it, the guy lowers me. We do it, once, twice, many times. Then he goes inside to grab a book and asks to another instructor "lower her, plz" The other guys DROPS ME. 4 back bones broken!! 3 months of recovery, one month delayed on my master degree work that was about to be defended. 10 days in hospital, medical bills...
Now what common sense would say??
We don't know for sure what happened. It LOOKS like a bad case of sittuation number 1, that I was lucky, that overlord was lucy, and so many others were lucky. but are we sure? were we there?
truth is, situations can be very diferent and look very similar. We all have diferent views of things and sometimes it needs to by ower own skin and blood for us to feel.
And other thing. Now we know that bouldering can be more dangerous then we think and choose your partner/"loweres" more carefully.
cheers,
Flavia
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jakedatc
Mar 22, 2007, 7:08 PM
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I agree with crimp.. he must have signed a waiver stating that he understood the risks of climbing.. which always include injury or death..
It says he was with 2 other experienced climbers.. there ya go.. he was supervised by his friends.. they didnt warn him that a dyno from one wall to another would be a dangerous thing. It should not be the responsibility of the staff to baby sit your 30 yr old ass.. His mom didnt sign a waiver for him. he did it himself. How are they supposed to test his competence??
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thomasribiere
Mar 22, 2007, 7:42 PM
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What kinf of lawsuit is it? In France, after such a thib, it's possible that the insurance of the paralyzed person would either sue the insurance of the gym owner ot at least try to find a financial agreement.
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fearlessclimber
Mar 22, 2007, 7:59 PM
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jammer wrote: It really burns me when someone sues over their incompetence. Anyone who even knows about climbing knows that there is a danger that goes along with the activity. It's as stupid as trying out for the boxing team and getting a concussion then suing the gym for letting them box. STUPID I TELL YA!
Well said, it was their own incompetence
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dlintz
Mar 22, 2007, 8:16 PM
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Ah, the McDonald's coffee lawsuit.
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm
Here's an interesting page regarding that, esp. #2 and #4.
...back to your regularly scheduled pissing match.
d.
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cracklover
Mar 22, 2007, 8:20 PM
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Excellent point. Insurance changes things.
A few years ago my gf at the time got run over by a car while bicycling. Luckily, all she suffered was a broken foot. She had insurance, so she shrugged it off, assuming the insurance would cover the medical expenses. Well she was wrong.
The insurance company said: we want to sue on your behalf. We feel that the insurance for the driver should help pay your medical expenses. Had she not agreed to go forward with the suit, they would have capped her expenses, and a significant amount of the medical bills would have come out-of-pocket.
What would you have done? Sucked it up? Taken out another three credit cards and racked up the debt? Tried to get a second job to pay the bills? Or let the insurance companies play their game? She went with the latter.
Can you imagine how much harder the insurance company is pushing in this case? Think about the astronomical costs involved in this guy being taken care of for the rest of his life. He really may have no choice. You can't "take responsibility for yoursef" when you can't even wipe your own ass.
GO
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crimpandgo
Mar 22, 2007, 8:24 PM
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cracklover wrote: Excellent point. Insurance changes things. A few years ago my gf at the time got run over by a car while bicycling. Luckily, all she suffered was a broken foot. She had insurance, so she shrugged it off, assuming the insurance would cover the medical expenses. Well she was wrong. The insurance company said: we want to sue on your behalf. We feel that the insurance for the driver should help pay your medical expenses. Had she not agreed to go forward with the suit, they would have capped her expenses, and a significant amount of the medical bills would have come out-of-pocket. What would you have done? Sucked it up? Taken out another three credit cards and racked up the debt? Tried to get a second job to pay the bills? Or let the insurance companies play their game? She went with the latter. Can you imagine how much harder the insurance company is pushing in this case? Think about the astronomical costs involved in this guy being taken care of for the rest of his life. He really may have no choice. You can't "take responsibility for yoursef" when you can't even wipe your own ass. GO
I dont think your example is the same situation. I dont blame the insurance company. the accident was caused by the driver. the driver should be held accountable.
In the gym case, the accident was caused by the climber....... now if a hold broke off, or the padding was missing on the floor... now you got something to go on.....
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winglessangel
Mar 22, 2007, 8:32 PM
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hummm, interesting, yeah. we should all be well informed about things we say.
guess she did have a good case.
anyway. that just adds more to my point. WE were not in the guy's gym at the time. We don't know exactly whatever happened. We are like me talking about the coffee case.
and, as Thomas and cracklover just pointed, we don't know what other related issues are.
let's just say I do think people should take responsability for their own action, some people don't and there are stupid lawsuits out there, but there are, also, some well built cases and sometimes other people are more then guilty. We just don't have enouth background to talk about this particular case.
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cracklover
Mar 22, 2007, 8:57 PM
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crimpandgo wrote: I dont think your example is the same situation. I dont blame the insurance company. the accident was caused by the driver. the driver should be held accountable. In the gym case, the accident was caused by the climber.......
I agree that from where we sit, the situation appears different in terms of culpability. But my point is not about culpability. Even if it was 95% the boulderer's fault, if there's an insurance company that thinks it's worth rolling the dice for that 5% chance a jury might agree with them, the poor paralyzed guy is in absolutely no position to say no. His choices in that position are - either go with the flow and let the insurance company represent him, or die in the gutter. And don't think that a bureaucrocy wouldn't put someone in that position.
But let's say there is no insurance company. Now how about the grieving family members. Monstrous bills in their mailbox, and they probably all have ambulance chasers pounding on their doors telling them that it wasn't the guy's fault at all - the gym was at fault, and if you hire me, I'll make the gym pay. They don't know anything about climbing. They believe the lawyer. And in their grief and rage, they'll reach out to anyone with answers for how and why this senseless act could have happened to them. How 'bout it, all you "personal responsibility" people. You willing to buy a plane ticket to England to sit in a courtroom and testify that the lawyers are misleading them, that this was a freak accident? Go ahead, put your own time and money on the line. Take that personal responsibility you admire! Assuming any of you have the guts, I bet you'll find it a little harder once you're face-to-face with the family.
GO
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dharmasoldat
Mar 23, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Lessons will be learned, sufferings will be suffered, but at the end of the day what's done is done. Everyone has to live with it because we cannot change the past.
Perhaps this will give those who would bite off more than they can chew, second thoughts - and those of us who know better to appreciate further the risks we take and what we've walked away from moderately unscathed.
It is a shame it had to be learned at the expense of someone else's health, regardless of their competency or lack thereof, etc.
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keithlester
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Mar 25, 2007, 1:08 PM
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cracklover wrote: crimpandgo wrote: I dont think your example is the same situation. I dont blame the insurance company. the accident was caused by the driver. the driver should be held accountable. In the gym case, the accident was caused by the climber....... I agree that from where we sit, the situation appears different in terms of culpability. But my point is not about culpability. Even if it was 95% the boulderer's fault, if there's an insurance company that thinks it's worth rolling the dice for that 5% chance a jury might agree with them, the poor paralyzed guy is in absolutely no position to say no. His choices in that position are - either go with the flow and let the insurance company represent him, or die in the gutter. And don't think that a bureaucrocy wouldn't put someone in that position. But let's say there is no insurance company. Now how about the grieving family members. Monstrous bills in their mailbox, and they probably all have ambulance chasers pounding on their doors telling them that it wasn't the guy's fault at all - the gym was at fault, and if you hire me, I'll make the gym pay. They don't know anything about climbing. They believe the lawyer. And in their grief and rage, they'll reach out to anyone with answers for how and why this senseless act could have happened to them. How 'bout it, all you "personal responsibility" people. You willing to buy a plane ticket to England to sit in a courtroom and testify that the lawyers are misleading them, that this was a freak accident? Go ahead, put your own time and money on the line. Take that personal responsibility you admire! Assuming any of you have the guts, I bet you'll find it a little harder once you're face-to-face with the family. GO
This happened in UK
He will NOT be obliged to pay for carers for the rest of his life. The state will care for this poor unfortunate retard, who didn't like to obey simple rules, cos he was not about to be told what to do by anybody. Did I say the state would pay? Silly me! That means I am going to pay for his care, with my taxes. And I wasn't even there! How can it be my fault?
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bbirtle
Mar 26, 2007, 3:33 PM
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It's an unfortunate situation and you'd have to know the details to see if anybody was at fault.
Generally speaking, places of business need to adaquately warn of possible danger as well as ensure their facilities make activities as safe as possible.
Beyond that, shit happens and you can't pass off fault to somebody else for not stopping you from hurting yourself.
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skurdeycat
Mar 26, 2007, 4:04 PM
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cracklover wrote: Excellent point. Insurance changes things. GO
There's probably no insurance issue here, the guy was in the UK. There's a national health system. Americans may think its the next thing to communism, and the Brits bitch about how bad it is but it still works.
Pain and suffering and a lifetime loss of earnings maybe, but no significant medical costs.
Skurdey
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tomcat
Mar 26, 2007, 7:43 PM
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I wonder what kind of information a gym could have given to prevent an injury like this.Tell people if they fall they could be hurt?
Things are not really so bad here in the states mate.If this happened to me I'd get about 2300 month in SOCIAL SECURITY.My dependant kids would each get about 655 month until 21.
Hospitals here do not turn away the indigent,they are treated just like everyone else.Advanced therapy might be another story,but in socialised medicine countries it's typically the same due to costs.
I'm self employed and can not afford the same WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION I provide my employees because it costs me 110 a week per man,so I have DISABILITY insurance,it comes in two tiers,one immeadiate and one after six months,1800 each,per month costs me 1.17 per day,combined.That's a cup of coffee.
I also have and provide HEALTH INSURANCE.Single guys about thirty insure for about 320 month.Barring that there is always TIM GREENE ready to take up a collection for you or him...lol!
INSURANCE is expensive because so many young healthy fit single people think they will do without it.
Good thing this didn't happen in the GUNKS.
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stymingersfink
Mar 27, 2007, 2:33 AM
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pupjr wrote: He's suing to survive, imagine the cost of all medical bills, now until he finally dies and all the caregiving he needs. Rember, can't feed himself, can't dress himself, can't even wipe his own butt. It's going to be astronomical.
Um, not really. If he can't feed himself, he won't need to wipe his own butt. Should only be a matter of weeks till his medical needs are resolved by the undertaker.
Remember that old saying about "my mother didn't raise any fools.... that lived." Looks like it's back on his parents to raise that fool. If i were a jurist in that one I'd have a hard time making any awards for the plaintiff. Sympathy, sure, but transferring of responsibility for his own actions to another party? Don't think so.
Now, if the wall had fallen on him it'd be another story, but it didn't.
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