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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 2:56 PM
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2007, 3:14 PM
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wow, that sounds like a nasty fall man...i haven't done much trad at all, but i've lead SSS and remember it took gear really well. due to the traffic the route gets, almost every hold is completely polished so i would suggest getting a lot more comfortable placing bomber gear on easier routes before you get on something like that again, especially if you know you might have to rest on a piece. it was probably the greasiest 5.8 i've ever been on. i hope you recover fast, mentally and physically!
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retr2327
Jul 27, 2007, 3:14 PM
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Cams usually work so well that they tend to inspire overconfidence (like Gri-Gris?). Slightly flaring and slightly polished = danger. I still remember an orange Metolius placement in a slightly flaring, slightly polished pocket that I would have sworn would be good; ten minutes of fiddling around, and it pulled out every time I yarded on it.
Ask yourself how much confidence you'd have if you were trying to smear on a polished face with metal soles -
Don't trust your life (or health) to one piece, no matter how good it looks, is a fairly good rule, although one frequently honored in the breach, but if it's a cam placement in slightly flaring and slightly polished pocket, watch out!
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 3:16 PM
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Sorry that you got hurt. hope you heal quickly. Tripple S is solid 5.9 so its no supprise that you got pumped. Its impossible to say exactly why a piece of gear fails without seeing the actual placement. That being said it sounds like you answered your own question. Flared, undercamed and pollished = splat. If you plan on hanging on gear make darn sure that its bomber and that the fall won't be bad if it blows. That means sew it up especialy if you are getting pumped. #3 sounds like near the top where the headjam is?
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reg
Jul 27, 2007, 3:17 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: I had a fall at Senceca Rocks last week and am trying to figure out what went wrong so I can not repeat the incident in my future trad leads. I was climbing the 5.8 route Triple S, about 60 feet up. I placed a #3 BD (blue) cam and went to rest on it. It wiggled so I replaced it, then tugged hard and it stayed put, so I took, easing slowly onto it. It held for a second, but next thing I know, I was free-falling. I know I should have backed it up (hindsight), but for the future - I am still unclear why it pulled. It was slightly undercammed, but not so much I could have used a #4. It might have been slightly polished, and only a bit, if at all, flaring. Anyone climb this route have any thoughts?? Or any other thoughts?? (I suffered 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a bruised liver. Not a good fall).
go back under ur bridge
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svilnit
Jul 27, 2007, 3:17 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: I had a fall at Senceca Rocks last week and am trying to figure out what went wrong so I can not repeat the incident in my future trad leads. I was climbing the 5.8 route Triple S, about 60 feet up. I placed a #3 BD (blue) cam and went to rest on it. It wiggled so I replaced it, then tugged hard and it stayed put, so I took, easing slowly onto it. It held for a second, but next thing I know, I was free-falling. I know I should have backed it up (hindsight), but for the future - I am still unclear why it pulled. It was slightly undercammed, but not so much I could have used a #4. It might have been slightly polished, and only a bit, if at all, flaring. Anyone climb this route have any thoughts?? Or any other thoughts?? (I suffered 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a bruised liver. Not a good fall).
Only thoughts are damn that must have hurt! Sorry to hear about your fall, I hope you heal soon!
Slightly flaring ok, slightly undercammed ok, slightly polished ok...
a + b + c = BAD BAD BAD
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nnowinowski
Jul 27, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Oh my god. Learn to place gear and climb within your limits. I'm sorry you got hurt but that is a simple climb with good gear. It takes better hexes than cams as the rock is slick and flaring. But -- there are good cam placements galore.
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shockabuku
Jul 27, 2007, 3:21 PM
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You say that you tugged on it; how? Slow, hard pull or sharp yank? I usually yank on my pieces a couple of times in a couple of different directions, starting with a little slack and giving a sharp yank on the runner. This gives it the opportunity to swivel a little and really let me know if it's in jeopardy.
I probably wouldn't have backed it up either.
Hope you heal well.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 3:25 PM
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If everyone climbed within their limits no one would get better. Nothing wrong with pushing your limits but you do need to sew it up when you get in trouble and NOT put your life on one piece.
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2007, 3:27 PM
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nnowinowski wrote: Oh my god. Learn to place gear and climb within your limits. I'm sorry you got hurt but that is a simple climb with good gear. It takes better hexes than cams as the rock is slick and flaring. But -- there are good cam placements galore.
my god man, give the guy a break, he probably just got out of the hospital and you're shitting on his face for falling on a climb. i guess you never had to sit on a piece when you started placing gear. i agree that the climbs not "difficult" by any means, good rests and takes lots of gear, but it's also not a gimme, especially for the 5.8 grade. i would like to know where cgalitsky was on the climb when he fell
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alex234
Jul 27, 2007, 3:31 PM
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first off i wish u a speedy recovery, secondly i usually try to avoid using cams in flaring cracks. its usually better to find a spot where the crack is no longer flaring or use a smaller cam deeper in the crack where it is not so flaring. also no other gear for 60 ft??? or at least 30 seeing u decked from the fall. it sounds like u ran out a climb with good pro where as if u had not u prolly wouldnt have decked. my advise would be to first not run out climbs with good pro/ not get on runout climbs with groundfall potential, back up placements that u think u might take a big fall on/are unsure of/or might deck if it blows with at least one other piece equalized with a sliding x although if one blows it will shockload the other but thats a different topic in its own, and finally lead stuff within your limit for some time till u are very proficient with gear placements.
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dbrayack
Jul 27, 2007, 3:35 PM
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The thing about Seneca is very rarely do you get parallel cracks...which is ideal for cams. Did you place it sticking directly out, or at a 45 degree angle?
I'm sorry about your fall and hope that you are back and kicking in no time.
A reply to a comment made earlier. Each one of my trad pieces tends to be a mission critical placement; if a piece were to blow, I'd likely sustain similar injuries...This may be bad, but its the way I climb.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 3:46 PM
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Yea drayback, that is bad. Trad gear is a system not just one piece. You can't allways back stuff up but depending on the liklyhood of a fall you need to have a system that accounts for failuer of a piece. If I am headding out on a move that i know has a high liklyhood of a fall then that gear is either backed up or the fall potentual will not be critical and the preceding piece will keep me alive. Allways think about what the system will do not just what this one piece wil do.
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nnowinowski
Jul 27, 2007, 3:48 PM
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climbing withing your limits doesn't mean that you aren't falling or pushing yourself. It means climbing at a level where you can protect yourself either through technique or with nuts/cams/whatever.
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rick_marsh
Jul 27, 2007, 3:49 PM
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ouch! hope you recover quickly. you'll get that route next time, but before you do I would spend a little time going over (hands on) the finer points of cam placements with an experienced trad or aid leader.
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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 3:49 PM
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dbrayack
Jul 27, 2007, 3:51 PM
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I've climbed the route. I remember placing cams, but do you know what I mean about how the rock is very "bulbous?" Like were all the cams touching well? As much as a cam whore that I am, I found that Seneca really takes better nuts than anything.
I hope you get better!
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cxy101
Jul 27, 2007, 3:51 PM
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First, I hope you are recovering well and in relatively good spirites.
Second, for everyone else who, that climb is only 90 feet long (from the ledge that everyone starts from), and I can't think of a number #3 BD placement at 60 feet. This means his 60 foot fall probably includes falling off the ledge that everyone starts from and down to the stairs.
The rock on SSS is "typically" very good, but slick. If you placed where I think you did. A minor flare may have been enough to get things moving the the larger flare below, once the cam started moving it would have just kept going.
The other possibility is that one side of the cam was on questionable rock. Either a fractured block that shifted under the forces the cam exerted under you full weight. Or, crumbly rock (that appeared good) the crumble leaving "ball bearings" between the face and cam lobes. I've seem plenty of rock at Seneca that fits either of these descriptions.
You know the placement and are the best to evaluate if any of thsi is a possibility.
Best wishes on a speedy recovery.
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dbrayack
Jul 27, 2007, 3:53 PM
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You have to wade through the stupidity to get real responses. Just ignore what people say unless they're being serious.
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lodi5onu
Jul 27, 2007, 3:55 PM
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ooooh, you mostly climb in yosemite! that means you're not used to really polished...wait a second...
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swaghole
Jul 27, 2007, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: also no other gear for 60 ft??? or at least 30 seeing u decked from the fall. it sounds like u ran out a climb with good pro where as if u had not u prolly wouldnt have decked.
I am not sure that the OP decked. He would have said that. Still, i hope he gets well soon.
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cxy101
Jul 27, 2007, 4:01 PM
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ya, caught that after the fact. Thanks.
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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 4:07 PM
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yekcir
Jul 27, 2007, 4:57 PM
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Polished rock at Seneca is pretty wild stuff. My suggestion is to place good passive gear when you can (and Triple S takes it well).
Hope you heal quickly. When you do, go do Green Wall, all passive if possible. Hit up a few more moderate corners like Ye Gods, Climbin Punishment etc... and get back at Triple S. That thing is awesome when it flows well.
That said, next time you go to hang on a piece to rest, expect it to fail and prepare to fall. Expecting the fall will help you get out from the rock and avoid the pinball effect.
Good luck!
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hibby11
Jul 27, 2007, 4:57 PM
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If i'm going to rest on a cam I give it a hard yank as well as a slow one. Since when your resting you aren't transferring a huge force to the gear there isn't as much friction between the surface of the lobes and the rock. Sometimes a cam that will hold a big fall with a high force, will slide right out under low load if the rock is polished.
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majid_sabet
Jul 27, 2007, 5:17 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: I had a fall at Senceca Rocks last week and am trying to figure out what went wrong so I can not repeat the incident in my future trad leads. I was climbing the 5.8 route Triple S, about 60 feet up. I placed a #3 BD (blue) cam and went to rest on it. It wiggled so I replaced it, then tugged hard and it stayed put, so I took, easing slowly onto it. It held for a second, but next thing I know, I was free-falling. I know I should have backed it up (hindsight), but for the future - I am still unclear why it pulled. It was slightly undercammed, but not so much I could have used a #4. It might have been slightly polished, and only a bit, if at all, flaring. Anyone climb this route have any thoughts?? Or any other thoughts?? (I suffered 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a bruised liver. Not a good fall).
I got few questions for you;
1-How far up were you from belay( total rope out) ?
2-Total protections between you and belay?
3-Type of protections ( name each, size)?
4-Distance between you and the last protection below you before fall ?
5-Distance between last protection and the one below it and its types ?
6-Type of belay device?
7-Rope size ?
8-helmet or no ?
Thanks
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 27, 2007, 5:18 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2007, 5:22 PM
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Majid, read the effin post. 60ft up, 8 pieces of gear aparantly 10ft above piece that held so 20ft fall when gear failed under body weight, slammed into wall got hurt. helmet? ?
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sticky_fingers
Jul 27, 2007, 5:26 PM
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Damn, sorry to hear about your fall. I've done that climb and the only advice I can give has already been given; test your placements by yanking them in mulitple (downward) directions and with varying degrees of force.
Hope you recover quickly and thoroughly.
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cgalitsky
Jul 27, 2007, 6:29 PM
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hibby11
Jul 27, 2007, 6:41 PM
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Ignore him, if you plan on hanging around the site you might want to read the topic about Killfile
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majid_sabet
Jul 27, 2007, 6:53 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster?
Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped.
what if two more protections got pulled ?
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
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hibby11
Jul 27, 2007, 6:55 PM
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I think we all understand the fact that if you blow a ton of gear your gonna hit the ground.......thanks for that insightful conclusion.
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majid_sabet
Jul 27, 2007, 7:05 PM
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hibby11 wrote: I think we all understand the fact that if you blow a ton of gear your gonna hit the ground.......thanks for that insightful conclusion.
Well,my questions were directly to OP and not you and I am not really interested on your opinion in any shape or form.
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cracklover
Jul 27, 2007, 7:51 PM
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cgalitsky wrote: so, if you pull on a cam in a polished crack and it doesn't move, that isn't enough, i take it? i did place the piece angling down, since I knew i was going to take on it. and it didn't move at all when i yanked (rather hard, or as hard as i could). placing further back in is good advice. any other advice for polished crack? i plan to climb out east again...
The following is not specific to climbing here out east. I've climbed kind of all over, and it's generally true:
1 - placing further back does not insure a better placement. A better placement is a better placement. You can have a nice pocket near the edge where a cam will sit nicely, and would have to massively deform the axle before it could fail. Where further in, the crack could be parallel or flaring or polished or crumbly or dirty or..., allowing the cam to track out. A better placement is always better than a worse placement. The main worries about placing something really near the edge of a crack are if it's placed in a funky spot where rotation could allow it to fall out, or in soft rock, where a hard fall near the edge could allow it to blow out the edges of the crack, or in a splitter crack where it might track out. In many cases, especially with small gear, a placement further back is *worse*, not only because it's hard for your second to clean, but because it can be hard to tell how good the placement is. The difference between a superb blue Alien and pure psychological pro is impossible to tell if it's buried deep in a shadowy crack.
2 - I don't care how many people here say they give their cams a good hard tug. This tells you *almost nothing* about whether the cam will hold a fall. The only way to tell is by bouncing on the piece or testing it with a funkness device. And if you're sitting on it, and looking at a 20' fall if it blows, well obviously that's not a good time to test it!
In other words, not having seen the placement or knowing your skills, there's no way to know, but let's say you could be better at analyzing and/or placing gear. If so, maybe you could do a little aid climbing - where you bounce on each piece. That could help an enormous amount (though after your fall, it could be a bit traumatic!)
But because I can't see the placement that failed, I'm going to assume for the moment that you're excellent at analyzing and placing gear, and it actually looked picture-perfect. It happens - rarely, but it happens. In that case, the main lesson to learn here is one that's been said by a number of other posters on this thread already: never trust a single piece of gear if you are actually going to be falling or weighting it. Typically in trad climbing, your hands and feet are a backup to the gear. If you get rid of that backup (by hanging on a piece or by falling), then you damn well better have another type of backup. That means a second piece of gear.
Hope some of the above is helpful, and I hope you have a full and a speedy recovery!
GO
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rocknice2
Jul 27, 2007, 8:58 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster? Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped. what if two more protections got pulled ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3275/untitledip5.jpg[/IMG]
Tell us ohgreatone how many peices do you place
1pro/foot
2pro/foot
3pro/foot
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shockabuku
Jul 27, 2007, 9:05 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: hibby11 wrote: I think we all understand the fact that if you blow a ton of gear your gonna hit the ground.......thanks for that insightful conclusion. Well,my questions were directly to OP and not you and I am not really interested on your opinion in any shape or form.
Likewise I'm sure.
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charley
Jul 27, 2007, 11:01 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster? Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped. what if two more protections got pulled ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3275/untitledip5.jpg[/IMG]
If I worried about all the what if's out there. I would never leave the house. I would rather die trying than wondering though.
Sorry. I hope you heal well and soon, young lady.
(This post was edited by charley on Jul 27, 2007, 11:03 PM)
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kmc
Jul 27, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Not to sound like a dick, but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you dont know what your doing.
As others have said, swallow your pride get on climbs well below whatever level you think you can climb and practice placing gear. Climb a lot of easy routes, and place a lot of gear. This type of experience is the only thing that will get you better at placing gear.
There is nothing wrong with pushing your limits on a trad climb, but its only ok if the gear is good, and if your gear is good.
Sorry to hear about your fall. Hope you heal up quickly.
~Kevin
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rasoy
Jul 28, 2007, 1:49 AM
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"but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you don't know what your doing."
Happened to me man. It's happened to many I know.
Are you sure "You" know what you're talking about?
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virial
Jul 28, 2007, 2:15 AM
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just because gear is bad does not mean the climber placing it can not place gear.....just like good gear does not mean a climber places the gear good....
a climber should have a very good idea of weather there gear is good or not. they also should climb like they are soloing if they are not sure of there gear, weather placed well or not. to insure safety!
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reno
Jul 28, 2007, 3:04 AM
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kmc wrote: Not to sound like a dick, but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you dont know what your doing.
Sometimes, perhaps.
There are rare times when a piece is placed, declared "Bomber", and it isn't. Visual inspection, positioning, past experiences, etc. all tell you "Yeah, that's solid stuff."
Then it pulls. The reason for the pull matters not.
An experienced gear climber will *usually* know if a piece is solid or not. But sometimes, to borrow a phrase, "Shit happens" and gear pulls.
Glad the OP is (more or less) alright, and will live to climb another day. Lesson learned.
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rasoy
Jul 28, 2007, 3:24 AM
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So Reno?
That quote you always put on the bottom of your posts?
"To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden....."
Dog spelled backwards = GOD
I think this Milan Kundera made a monumental error in his judgment of eden?
Maybe it should have been:
To sit with GOD on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden .....
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shockabuku
Jul 28, 2007, 4:48 AM
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Milan Kundera spelled backwards is a red nuknalim. Woo hoo!
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reno
Jul 28, 2007, 5:27 AM
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rasoy wrote: So Reno? That quote you always put on the bottom of your posts? "To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden....." Dog spelled backwards = GOD
Indeed. Thus, the bumper sticker on my car:
"Dog is my co-pilot."
Wanna see the pics of a Siberian Husky, head out the passenger window, tongue flopping in the wind, saliva strewn along the side of my car?
Yeah, me neither. 
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SkaFreak
Jul 28, 2007, 6:25 AM
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First of all, let me say to the OP, hope you have a good recovery.
Second, to majid:
What would happen if the rope snapped?
What would happen if the harness failed?
What would happen if the belay device/biner failed?
What would happen if the the entire cliff face slid off?
What would happen if the climb got hit by a stray nuclear missile test?
Here's one: What would happen if you stopped asking dumb questions about people's injuries and deaths and instead focused on your own climbing? You've already passed misinformation about one of my friends deaths in the past, so just give up on it. I don't care if you're serious or trolling. Either way there's no point in it.
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notapplicable
Jul 28, 2007, 7:05 PM
Post #47 of 53
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There appear to be a lot of infallible people who have some how lived there entire life without making a misjudgment or mistake. Its astounding really, I mean what are the odds of even one person like this existing in our world and yet here we have all these folks gathered in one place.
reg wrote: go back under ur bridge
nnowinowski wrote: Oh my god. Learn to place gear and climb within your limits. I'm sorry you got hurt but that is a simple climb with good gear. It takes better hexes than cams as the rock is slick and flaring. But -- there are good cam placements galore.
kmc wrote: Not to sound like a dick, but if you pulled a piece of gear from just resting on it, that is a clear indicator to me that you dont know what your doing.
Hmmm, sounds a little questionable to me. I call shenanigans!
To the OP:I hope you heal well. It appears you misjudged a placement (happens to everyone) but you obiously know something about leading on gear seeing as how you finished the fall hanging from the end of you rope and not on the ground. Don't let these fools on here bother you, you now have a better understaning of how your gear interacts with the rock and are (hopefully) a safer climber for it.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 29, 2007, 1:18 PM
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KMC For someone who claimed they didn't want to sount like a dick you sure did a good job of it.......
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microbarn
Jul 29, 2007, 1:35 PM
Post #49 of 53
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cracklover wrote: 2 - I don't care how many people here say they give their cams a good hard tug. This tells you *almost nothing* about whether the cam will hold a fall. The only way to tell is by bouncing on the piece or testing it with a funkness device. And if you're sitting on it, and looking at a 20' fall if it blows, well obviously that's not a good time to test it!
I understand your position that a tug won't tell you everything about your placement. I am not arguing that. However, are you implying that a tug is a waste of time? Wouldn't you rather tug and know something before you weight a piece?
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limeydave
Jul 29, 2007, 1:49 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: cgalitsky wrote: yeah, helmet, of course. i never lead w/o a helmet, hardly ever even follow without one outside, esp trad. thanks for all the good advice to everyone. wondering why all the questions from last poster? Cause , IMO is that not important what got pulled but what you had between you and deck. based on what you said, you were 40 feet off deck when stopped. what if two more protections got pulled ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3275/untitledip5.jpg[/IMG]
I always learn something from your posts Majid.
Today I learnt that if enough pieces of gear pull, you may hit the ground.
You should write a book.
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cracklover
Jul 30, 2007, 1:00 AM
Post #51 of 53
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microbarn wrote: cracklover wrote: 2 - I don't care how many people here say they give their cams a good hard tug. This tells you *almost nothing* about whether the cam will hold a fall. The only way to tell is by bouncing on the piece or testing it with a funkness device. And if you're sitting on it, and looking at a 20' fall if it blows, well obviously that's not a good time to test it! I understand your position that a tug won't tell you everything about your placement. I am not arguing that. However, are you implying that a tug is a waste of time? Wouldn't you rather tug and know something before you weight a piece?
Yes, most of time, a tug is absolutely a waste of time. Give me any cam on your rack, and I can place it in a crack in five minutes where you cannot tug it out, but I can bounce it out in my aiders. The amount of force you can put on the cam by pulling on it by hand is miniscule compared to what it sees in a real fall, or even compared to a little over bodyweight (especially from a shifting body).
GO
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dalguard
Jul 30, 2007, 1:34 AM
Post #52 of 53
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Registered: Aug 1, 2003
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But how do you place a #3 (a #3 for heaven's sake, not a black Alien), intentionally sit on it without having a backup close enough to keep you from getting hurt, have it pull, and not even know why? I'm not trying to be harsh. I've placed a lot of crap gear in my life. But to place a #3 that's crap enough to pull from body weight and not even have suspected it might be bad, I just don't know. Back to gear school, I think.
That's not meant to be mean. It's meant to save someone's life. We all place bad gear. If you've climbed long enough you've had a piece pull, even one you didn't think would pull. But a #3 that you didn't think would pull failing from body weight? No.
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kmc
Aug 1, 2007, 4:40 PM
Post #53 of 53
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Registered: May 24, 2006
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I'm with you Dalguard. I know what I said earlier came across as mean, but I do hope that the OP heals quickly from this fall.
Everyone places bad gear, (myself included, I never said I was perfect) but when you place a #3 and have it pull and dont know why, then you may want to reconsider things. I have been on this route, and remember it being well protected. It certainly was stout for the .8+ rating it gets, but the gear is certainly there. There is definetly enough gear to be found that you should be able to get gear close enough so if one does pull than you will have somehting else to save your ass.
Again, to the OP, hope you heal quickly.
~Kevin
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