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omalavet
Nov 23, 2007, 3:56 PM
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simple ? if i bolt a route on rappel and then climb it in the first try without falling ... thats a redpoint a flash or an onsight??
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flint
Nov 23, 2007, 4:09 PM
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whatever you want it to be. ultimatly, it only matters to you...
j-
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chossmonkey
Nov 23, 2007, 4:22 PM
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At the most a flash. If you feel out the holds and try some of the moves it would be a redpoint.
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zealotnoob
Nov 23, 2007, 4:25 PM
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I'd say flash.
However, if you're going to forego bolting on lead, why not just top-rope it? If you insist on bolting it, why not work the moves first so you can bolt it in an informed and intelligent manner?
Poorly planned rap bolting is bad style, regardless of how quickly you climb it.
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omalavet
Nov 23, 2007, 6:54 PM
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yeah now but some routes like overhangs roofs... are hard to toprope..... but ok ill just put flash wenever i do that....
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winglessangel
Nov 23, 2007, 7:01 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: I'd say flash. However, if you're going to forego bolting on lead, why not just top-rope it? If you insist on bolting it, why not work the moves first so you can bolt it in an informed and intelligent manner? Poorly planned rap bolting is bad style, regardless of how quickly you climb it.
Can't be flash, no way, redpoint or onsight.
if you, and only you alone did all this, no one gave you betas, you didn't see anyone there, can't be flash.
So redpoint or onsight? the question is: "rap bolting" = "trying moves" or not?
I guess if you touched no rock at all while bolting, you could count as onsight.
and specially: you didn't top rope to get there, you walked to the top by other route or trail and rapped from there.
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zealotnoob
Nov 23, 2007, 10:49 PM
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I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash.
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onceahardman
Nov 23, 2007, 11:12 PM
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not onsite, unless you rapped down and bolted while blindfolded.
A sport FA is a redpoint at best. only the second (+)ascensionist(+) can flash or onsight
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winglessangel
Nov 23, 2007, 11:49 PM
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of course it can.
if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!!
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angry
Nov 23, 2007, 11:59 PM
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winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!!
Now you're argueing semantics.
There's lots of routes that are bolted, by hand, on lead with no falls. The RC.com collective (and in this instance, I agree) seems to pretty much classify these routes as trad, seeing as trad is an abbreviation of tradional and not cam.
I'm relatively sure the OP is not talking about that though.
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winglessangel
Nov 24, 2007, 12:08 AM
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angry wrote: winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!! Now you're argueing semantics. There's lots of routes that are bolted, by hand, on lead with no falls. The RC.com collective (and in this instance, I agree) seems to pretty much classify these routes as trad, seeing as trad is an abbreviation of tradional and not cam. I'm relatively sure the OP is not talking about that though.
yes we are, but on the meaning of "is at best" and not on the meaning of what trad is, I wrote thinking in my mind a person bolting while climbing a strong, short 5.13/14/15+++ etc, route on a crag, a "sport route" for sure.
possibility of this happening? his "is at best" made it sound like something impossible, but I think it can be... so...
but, we are highjaking the thread, the case here is bolting on RAPEL...
(This post was edited by winglessangel on Nov 24, 2007, 3:40 PM)
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caughtinside
Nov 25, 2007, 8:02 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash.
No, if you're rap bolting, you had better be trying moves. If you don't, you may mess up the bolt placements.
I've rap bolted a few sport climbs and i have touched every hold on the face to check clipping positions and which directions sequences take you. Plus, you've got to clean the thing. You can't just rap down the face and zing in bolts wherever you'd like.
If you bolt on rap, the best you can do is redpoint it. But really, who gives a shit? you got the FA.
a side note. I"ve bolted some routes and my arms were shot from drilling and cleaning. So I let my buddy have it, he got the FA on a flash.
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shorty
Nov 26, 2007, 2:07 AM
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Not too hard to tell who's put up routes and who hasn't.
caughtinside wrote: zealotnoob wrote: I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash. No, if you're rap bolting, you had better be trying moves. If you don't, you may mess up the bolt placements.
IMO, the best sport routes are "worked" quite a bit before being bolted. If one has made the decision to install bolts, the FA party must also decide to install them properly.
caughtinside wrote: I've rap bolted a few sport climbs and i have touched every hold on the face to check clipping positions and which directions sequences take you. Plus, you've got to clean the thing. You can't just rap down the face and zing in bolts wherever you'd like.
Few of us are blessed with perfect rock, where holds are solid and the best moves are obvious. I've seen FA parties spend many, many days working a pitch to confirm the sequence, be certain that the holds are solid, and to finally sink the bolts. My own routes tend not to be so involved, but 2 or 3 days to develop one pitch is quite common. And after one has determined that the holds are solid, the moves make sense, the choss/lichen is removed, and the bolt locations are marked, the actual drilling time will likely done in much less than an hour.
caughtinside wrote: If you bolt on rap, the best you can do is redpoint it. But really, who gives a shit? you got the FA.
Exactly. I don't care if the FA party took 2 bizillion runs on the route before they sent it. Down the road that information will probably be lost, anyway. People will remember the route for it's quality, then maybe who put it up.
caughtinside wrote: a side note. I"ve bolted some routes and my arms were shot from drilling and cleaning. So I let my buddy have it, he got the FA on a flash.
For this exact reason, I only give a tentative rating on the day of an FA. I like to have second opinions from other climbers, plus another run at the route when I'm fresh. After hours of brushing lichen and grainy rock, sometimes just trying to grab the steering wheel on the way home is pumpy. All too often I've been 1 or 2 letter grades off the consensus rating on the day of the FA.
To the OP -- If rap bolting is considered an acceptable method of developing routes in your area, don't get hung up on how you describe your FA. It will be an FA, plain and simple. Spend your efforts putting up a good route that will be enjoyed long after you move onto other projects and activities.
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flint
Nov 26, 2007, 2:30 AM
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If you really want to on-site the route, set up a top rope and onsite it before "retro bolting" the route. Truthfully, no one said you have to clip bolts to on-site. Hell, I have climbed routes where top rope is the only option, did I not on-site it?
Still going with the who cares put the FA stamp on it and call it done route.
j-
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joeforte
Nov 26, 2007, 3:38 AM
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I agree with the above. Get the onsight on toprope. Then let your friends climb it on toprope. That way you can make sure the majority of people can use the clipping positions SAFELY and effectively.
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zealotnoob
Nov 26, 2007, 2:34 PM
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shorty wrote: Not too hard to tell who's put up routes and who hasn't.
Fair enough.
caughtinside wrote: zealotnoob wrote: I wouldn't say rap bolting = trying moves, but it's certainly beta. I still say flash. No, if you're rap bolting, you had better be trying moves. If you don't, you may mess up the bolt placements.
...I totally agree--you better be trying the moves.
zealotnoob wrote: poorly planned rap bolting is bad style, no matter how quickly you climb it.
...but the OP's question implies that the moves weren't tried. If that is the case, wouldn't it be a flash?
Who cares, though. Spot on:
shorty wrote: If rap bolting is considered an acceptable method of developing routes in your area, don't get hung up on how you describe your FA. It will be an FA, plain and simple. Spend your efforts putting up a good route that will be enjoyed long after you move onto other projects and activities.
(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Nov 26, 2007, 2:40 PM)
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omalavet
Nov 26, 2007, 3:15 PM
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irresponsible bolting. ????? try bolting a roof on lead...!!! you people never bolt!!1 and you start talking about how its done .... thats bad.... olmost every sport rout you climb have being bolted on rappel!!!! for sure
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joeforte
Nov 26, 2007, 4:21 PM
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omalavet wrote: thats bad.... olmost every sport rout you climb have being bolted on rappel!!!! for sure
Not 'Round Here Boy!
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omalavet
Nov 26, 2007, 10:39 PM
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around there were 5.3, 5.4, 5.10 crag.... try to do that on a 5.13 overhang roof... or just a 5.13..... overhanguin wall.... from the ground up
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overlord
Nov 26, 2007, 11:42 PM
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you cannot bolt a route and than claim an onsight. if you bolted it, its a redpoint. but be glad for it, a FA is worth much more than an OS, at least in my book.
you can however get a sport onsight FA if someone else does the bolting
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flint
Nov 27, 2007, 2:45 AM
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flint wrote: whatever you want it to be. ultimatly, it only matters to you... j- |
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rockguide
Dec 1, 2007, 2:40 AM
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winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!!
Yes
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rockguide
Dec 1, 2007, 2:41 AM
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angry wrote: winglessangel wrote: of course it can. if you FA from the ground and are strong enough to drill and bolt with one hand while holding with the other AND bolt it all with no falls it is onsight!! Now you're argueing semantics. There's lots of routes that are bolted, by hand, on lead with no falls. The RC.com collective (and in this instance, I agree) seems to pretty much classify these routes as trad, seeing as trad is an abbreviation of tradional and not cam. I'm relatively sure the OP is not talking about that though.
and yes. Trad can be onsighted too.
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mtengaio
Dec 16, 2007, 5:08 AM
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You'd be a lucky chap to bolt a route on rap w/o first TR'ing it to figure out bolt placements and clipping stances and have it turn out to be a quality route – unless you're a 5.11 climber bolting a 5.6, but why the fuck would bother.
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daronmalakian
Apr 18, 2008, 8:49 AM
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That's a REDPOINT.
When you bolt a route, you try the moves, find the best holds for clipping etc... that cannot be an onsigh or a flash...
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guangzhou
Apr 23, 2008, 6:00 AM
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mtengaio wrote: You'd be a lucky chap to bolt a route on rap w/o first TR'ing it to figure out bolt placements and clipping stances and have it turn out to be a quality route – unless you're a 5.11 climber bolting a 5.6, but why the fuck would bother.
I've rap bolted over a 1000 routes now, and I rarely work the route on on top-rope first. Actually, I have almost never top-roped the route at all. my routes range from 5.6 to 5.13c. Why do i bolt 5.6, so people can climb them. I enjoy all grades if the route is fun.
In all honesty, I haven't even heard of any one complaining about where my bolts are compared to clipping stances. Some feel my bolts are spaced a bit, but the falls are all clean, so I am not worried.
Maybe I can pick out bolt placement because I have been climbing for a long time. Maybe it's because I climb trad. I will say, many people who are registered here have seen me bolt and know that I don't reverse the moves first. I don't have time. I have bolted as many has six 30 meter routes in a day and returned the next day to climb them. I don't mess up bolt placement very often.
My method is simple.
Set up a rap.
Place belay bolts
Rap a look at the hold for feet and hand, decide on bolt
Rap and repeat to route is bolted.
I will admit, I have placed a few lead bolts that I returned to at a later time, and placed in better locations. Lead bolting is much harder and you can't always get the bolt where it should be. Why would I move a lead bolt, because I want my routes to be safe and the bolts easy to clip.
Two weekends ago, I put up three routes. One trad two sport. 5.10a trad, 11b Sport, and 12c sport. The 12c(?) I have not gotten clean yet, but all the bolts are easy to clip. One climber who is shooting for the first ascent, yes, I allow anyone to climb my bolted routes without asking even if I haven't redpointed it, say the bolts are to far. He did take a 20 footer, but all clean air and he admits that it's only nerves, not risk, that make him think the bolts are to far. He took the fall several time in a row.
Yes, routes can be rap bolted without working them. Yes, bolts can be placed correctly without top-roping the route first.
In Youngshuo China, I bolted a roof in Chicken Cave. I did this on lead, mostly on aid and I couldn't work the route on top-rope. Not possible. I tried the route several times, but was never successful on it. Finally, a top British climber cam through and got the red point. Bolts were at the correct place according to those who were there to see the ascent.
Cheers
Eman
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corson
Apr 23, 2008, 8:48 PM
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I cant believe this thread has gone on for so long! If you guys need the internet to answer this question,you should start reading R&I or else climb more.
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xtrmecat
Apr 23, 2008, 10:04 PM
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It can not be an onsight! Onsight means at first sight, and the fact that you know it has a roof means that you have seen it.
Just send it and be proud of your FA or fall and get it over with.
Bob
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guangzhou
Apr 24, 2008, 6:50 AM
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If you know it has roof you can't onsight it. Explain that.
The other guy, if the thread doesn't interest you, move on. You don't have ot read everyting posted.
Kind of funny, I never hear people brag about onsighting aid routes.
Man, last weekend, I on-sighted this A3+ seem.
Kool, I got he red point on the A4 to the left.
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bender
Apr 24, 2008, 8:49 AM
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you cant rap bolt a route without touching the holds with your hands and feet so only a redpoint as you would have previous sensor knowledge of the holds which a flash ascent exclude
whats the choss factor of this cliff? as the answers change accordingly and you do know anything clean as a whistle has at least been toproped several times
when it is to steep to toprope put in a few directional bolts first at obvious stances as need be to keep the rope hanging close enough to work the free moves
get the bolts in where they keep the route safe while adding the least additional physical exertion to the process of simply climbing it
dont choose your bolt location until youve physically pulled and stood and stepped off of the holds
they break alot at first you see and desired bolt location changes in this process
you should be more concerned with the final product than what label you can affix some subset of your involvement with it
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guangzhou
Apr 24, 2008, 1:12 PM
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bender wrote: you cant rap bolt a route without touching the holds with your hands and feet so only a redpoint as you would have previous sensor knowledge of the holds which a flash ascent exclude whats the choss factor of this cliff? as the answers change accordingly and you do know anything clean as a whistle has at least been toproped several times when it is to steep to toprope put in a few directional bolts first at obvious stances as need be to keep the rope hanging close enough to work the free moves get the bolts in where they keep the route safe while adding the least additional physical exertion to the process of simply climbing it dont choose your bolt location until youve physically pulled and stood and stepped off of the holds they break alot at first you see and desired bolt location changes in this process you should be more concerned with the final product than what label you can affix some subset of your involvement with it
You have some good advice here, but I place bolt regualrly without pulling and stepping on the holds.
I will agree, clean,, clean, clean. The end product is definately the key.
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flint
Apr 24, 2008, 2:35 PM
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bender wrote: you cant rap bolt a route without touching the holds with your hands and feet so only a redpoint as you would have previous sensor knowledge of the holds which a flash ascent exclude whats the choss factor of this cliff? as the answers change accordingly and you do know anything clean as a whistle has at least been toproped several times when it is to steep to toprope put in a few directional bolts first at obvious stances as need be to keep the rope hanging close enough to work the free moves get the bolts in where they keep the route safe while adding the least additional physical exertion to the process of simply climbing it dont choose your bolt location until youve physically pulled and stood and stepped off of the holds they break alot at first you see and desired bolt location changes in this process you should be more concerned with the final product than what label you can affix some subset of your involvement with it
one post in 6 years... damn
j-
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bender
Apr 24, 2008, 7:37 PM
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thank you kindly
it would seem your undoubtdly climbing much more solid formations than what we are left with here, but still unless your just a kinetic genius its really had to find the sweet spot in a climbs beta for clips without actually hanging on the hands and standing on the feet
the 'flash' ascent was so enumerated to encompass those sends where folks knowledgeable about the route shouted beta to the flailing onsighter who hung in and got a clean ascent that first try
its a hat tip to the values inherent the ground up traditions
it took into account the great distinction between simple visual inspection or a route and concrete forknowledge of its detail which watching a send of it or receiving beta regarding it are
i would argue that even a no touching inspection of a route on rappel disqualifies you from any flash ascent
(This post was edited by bender on Apr 24, 2008, 7:54 PM)
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guangzhou
Apr 25, 2008, 12:36 AM
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No where did I say rap bolting equalled flash or onsite. I simply said, you can rap bolt without pre-top-roping the line.
Perosnally, I am more impressed with a first ascent than a flash or redpoint. Lately, the only flash or onsights I get are when i travel or when I put up trad first ascents.
Yes, I have bolted chossy area too without pre-top-roping the line. Workout fine.
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anthonypmason
May 3, 2008, 1:07 AM
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Wouldn't that be a pink point?
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Perfecto
May 15, 2008, 4:13 AM
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Unless a flash precludes you from looking at the whole route before climbing it(ie someone tells you the route starts here, climb UP), I would say you COULD bolt a route and still flash it. As long as you don't try any moves, you are just looking at the route up close. You certainly can look at a route all you want from the ground before flashing it, doing it on rappel shouldn't change anything. The act of placing the bolts shouldn't give you any additional information you couldn't have gotten from simply looking either, just don't grab any holds and place bolts at good intervals.
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CrazyPetie
Jun 30, 2008, 4:37 PM
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joeforte wrote: omalavet wrote: thats bad.... olmost every sport rout you climb have being bolted on rappel!!!! for sure Not 'Round Here Boy!
I live in Pennsylvania as well, and i can say most sport routes here have been bolted on rappel. That in unless there is no other way to get to the top, and in that case the route is usualy not that difficult. Thats just from my experience here.
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Maddhatter
Sep 6, 2008, 5:06 PM
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Who really cares?
What matters is that the bolts are soild and well placed. When I started climbing climbs were done ground up with hooks.(onsight) As we all know with the new and harder over hanging climbs they just can't be done in that manner. Just make sure you put them up as good as they can be and leave the ego at home. My 2cents.
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