Would it be appropriate to back the knot up by tying the tails to the opposite rope with a triple fishermans? Or would that simply defeat the purpose of using the EDK to reduce the chance of the rope getting hung up? Or maybe should one back up it by tying the tails together with a fishermans?

I rapped off the bend/EDK the other day on a 10.5 lead and 8.0 tag line. It kind of freaked me out seeing ropes of two drastically different diameters tied in the EDK, but it was fine. Four double rope raps later and the tails were still the same length as when we started.

I am curious though, is there a point when the ropes are too different and the EDK isn't reliable anymore? For example an 11 mm tied to a 7.8 mm or something? Anyone know?

Would it be appropriate to back the knot up by tying the tails to the opposite rope with a triple fishermans? Or would that simply defeat the purpose of using the EDK to reduce the chance of the rope getting hung up? Or maybe should one back up it by tying the tails together with a fishermans?

The bend. The follow through won't roll to go over an edge. Just make sure to set the knot well and leave long tails so the knot won't roll off the ends of the rope. The tails you have in your pictures are definitely insufficient to make me happy.


Edit: I would call "the bend EDK" an EDK and the "follow through EDK" an overhand follow through.

I use the bend with a second overhand backing it up. It runs smoothly over the rock making it less likely to get snagged, and it's easy to untie after being weighted. Just be aware that it can walk after multiple rappels so make sure there's plenty of tail and a backup overhand is a good idea.

I hope you guys realise that the figure-8 bend is NEVER a good knot to join ropes. It rolls far worse than a single overhand bend (AKA EDK).

There is no reason to use it and it is dangerous. Use a follow through, EDK or a fishermans.

It’s a poor knot to use when you tie it in a bend formation. When you use it in a follow through formation, its bomber. In all cases the rope will break before the knot will slips when tied in the follow through formation.

I know it sounds elementary but I know some knots get stuck easier than others in RR. On Prince of Darkness and Unimpeachable Groping we will lead on a 10.5 and trail a 9.1 to rap off of. On all the other routes we will lead on two 9.1's. We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there.

So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)?

Hrrmmm... I think I found a video of the EDK capsizing.

http://www.youtube.com/...569E8750&index=2

0:49. Is that the EDK? It looks like it. Hard to tell from the side though.

Buahahahahahahaha...


Our resident self-proclaimed hotshot know-it-all bestest climber in Hawaii didn't just ask this, did he?

I hope you epic.

I wouldn't wish an epic on my worst enemy.

How about a mini-epic? e.g. stuck ropes, bail in the rain, benighting...

I wouldn't wish an epic on my worst enemy.

Hey Epoch- I've had VERY similar thoughts while following USN's attempt to plan out this trip on the knob. While reading the betting thread with regards to the cam competition, I had a thought But I wanted to air it before I gotted the BANZ.

Would it be "banzable" ('case I'm pretty sure it IS in poor taste ) to set up a thread where we take bets on what climb and how long USN's epic will take place on his trip to RR's ???!?!?!?!

I'd be willing to put something up as a prize, too!

You'd have to add a "no go" option. It would be so funny if USN went through all this planning and posting, and never ended up going. I think most of the climbers in the states, know where USN is going to be pretty soon.

The overhand (AKA Euro Death Knot) is the way to go in Red Rocks. Tying with different-sized ropes is fine, but you should form the knot so that the fatter rope does extra duty in roll prevention:

[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/rgold/Technical/EDK2Dia1.jpg[/img]

The way you check that you've got it right is to pull the two long strands apart---the first thing they encounter upon entering the knot should be a turn of the thinner rope.

For extra security (not normally necessary but perhaps not a bad idea for simul raps) the backup should be tied so as to cut off possible rolling slack:

[img]http://usera.ImageCave.com/rgold/Technical/EDK2Dia2.jpg[/img]

Note that the tails in the photos were tied short for illustration purposes. When you tie the knot for real, the tails should be about the length of your forearm.

Ironically, I just rapped POD this last weekend and we had our ropes get stuck... twice. We used an EDK but both incidents had nothing to do with the joining knot.

I know it sounds elementary but I know some knots get stuck easier than others in RR. On Prince of Darkness and Unimpeachable Groping we will lead on a 10.5 and trail a 9.1 to rap off of. On all the other routes we will lead on two 9.1's. We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there.

So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)?

You're kidding, right Jay? Right?

As in, you think there's actually a chance he knows how to self rescue?

In all seriousness, I don't know; and believe it or not, I was actually trying to be helpful.

Jay

USN, with all this hand wringing about what knot to use to minimize the rope getting stuck, do you know how to safely get your rope down if it does get stuck?

Jay

Well it depends on the situation. If there is enough rope left I can simply relead the pitch. If there is not enough rope left to do a normal free climb lead I can do a roped solo lead with two locking biners and a clove hitch. If both ends of the rope are still at the belay station I can ascend the line with cordlet tied in a prussic or slings with a climbheist. If there is not enough rope to relead the pitch normally, I can also use a prussic or GriGri to climb the rope in a roped solo mode as opposed to the double carabiner and clove hitch method (assuming the other end of the rope can be tied down and assuming the rope is still running through the rap ring).
Ultimately I would choose the roped solo lead last for I have never done one before and I know its risky and I am fairly sure its a bitch to get the clove hitch to pass rope as you climb. So my first option would be to relead the pitch if I could. If not, I would assend the line if I can get to both ropes. If not my last option would be to do a roped solo lead.

But I guess the largest problem would be determining if there is enough rope left to reach the problem site and free the rope via a standard relead. Because after all if I started to relead the pitch and there was not enough rope to get there I would have no way back down accept to down climb and remove gear as I go. I would imagen the nice thing about doing a roped solo lead is that I could lead on the rope that is stuck and as long as the rope is not stuck very far off route, I can’t run out of rope. But I don’t really like roped solo leads so I would probably try something a bit less extreme first, if possible.

I think it’s fairly improbable that the rope will get caught on something before it pulls through the rings. I think the most probable situation would be that the rope gets caught on something as it pulls through the ring and starts to fall. If that is the case a standard relead would probably be a viable option for I would likely have a good length of rope in my hand. If it’s not, a roped solo lead would be the only other option that I can think of that is not insanely dangerous.

If worse comes to worse I can cut the rope which will greatly increase my options. If the rope got stuck on the way down I would likely have a good 50m or more of rope accessible to me (unless it got stuck dead in the middle of the rope). Although I can only use half that with a standard relead, I can use all 50m (or whatever length is accessible to me) if I cut the rope at the belay station and re join the ropes when I get to the top and free the stuck end. Furthermore, the cut rope may be long enough for me to do half raps on gear to the ground if I am only one or two pitches from the ground. That would of course involve leaving gear but it would eliminate the need to go back up to free the stuck rope.

Navy,

that's a pretty fair assessment of the situation. I might add a couple things, though.

Be extraordinarily careful about pulling the end of the rope through the rings. You want the rope to clear the rings cleanly, without getting caught on any features, especially things far to one side or the other. as VTG mentioned, figuring out which side of the rope should be the pull side based on the surrounding features is a good call.

also, be super careful about what you're doing with the end of the rope you're pulling on. likely, you're going to just feed it right back through the rings and let it drop. however, in a place like red rocks where ropes are particularly snag-prone, you want to make sure your rope won't get caught on anything pulling it back up.

if the top of your rope gets caught, you'll naturally pull the bottom back up to re-lead on that end. but if the bottom of the rope is also stuck in a crack, etc., you'll have to rap down to clear the end and then ascend back up before you can re-lead. of course, if it's stuck so hard you have to cut it to free the end, you may be left with a lot less rope than you thought. in that case, you may be looking at ascending the stuck line on prussiks, which is pretty undesirable (at least in my view).

finally, when you're tossing your ropes for the next rappel, you might save yourself a lot of hassle in the long-run if you rappel "saddle bag" style and feed the rope out as you go instead of tossing the rope.

Hey man, something to keep in mind when considering how you would get out of a stuck rap-rope situation, is whether the rap route is the same as the climbing route, the same as another route (is it within your lead abilities), or is it simply down the most direct plumb line thats really not climbable/protectable at all. The three different possibilities lead to very different solutions, eh?

Also, I think you're making a good choice with going with two leadable lines. In most multipitch situations I climb on a 7 mm tag line and my lead line. That said, I pretty much always use two leadable lines in RR. For me, since I have 8 mm doubles I usually either just use my double ropes. If the route doesn't really dictate double technique I'll use my 10.2 lead line and bring one of the 8mm doubles as a tag line (or stuffed into a pack) for the rappels. I find this saves me tons of time seeing as I climb much faster and can change over belays much faster like this.

I would recommend that unless the climb is SERIOUSLY wandering or the pro is seriously sketchy (which I don't think your are going to be seeing given your climbs) trailing one of the Jokers. I think you'll find the savings in rope management time is well worth it. If the pro is moderately wandering just bring extra double length slings for extending long and go with that.

My experience is that when getting into the multipitch world the more you can do to simplify and stream-line your process the better. The thing that, at least in the beginning, caused me to have to break out the headlamps unexpectedly, was taking too long. Clusterfucks at the anchors, route-finding issues, etc. The more simple the techniques you choose in the beginning the better. Pick routes that can best accommodate these techniques. Once you feel better about your skills and want to start adding tricks you can start eying different routes that need those skills. YMMV.

That last suggestion can save a lot of hassle if it is windy.

Why do you prefer to tie an overhand knot in the smaller rope as a backup opposed to tying a second EDK against the first one? Is it simply because you wish to minimize the size of the knot or does your method provide a better backup then a second EDK?

We intend to simulrap to save time if it’s getting dark. Generally I just use a figure eight (standard follow through figure eight, not the one sided [offset] figure eight bend) however I am a bit less sure of how a figure eight reacts to two different rope sizes and how easy a figure eight gets stuck out there.

So I guess the question is, follow through figure eight, triple fishermans or EDK for different sized ropes? And if EDK is the best option should I use the follow through EDK[^hH^H^H =>Ring Bend (opposing tails) or the EDK bend (tails on the same side)[Offset Ring Bend]?

Whatever knot you chose remember you must put the thicker rope through the anchor/rap ring. Especially if you simulrap.

You shouldn't make blanket statements like that.

We have 9.9 and a 9.7 ropes. You're telling me that if we thread the 9.7 through the anchors we will DIE?!?

Buahahahahahahaha...


Our resident self-proclaimed hotshot know-it-all bestest climber in Hawaii didn't just ask this, did he?

I hope you epic.

The overhand (AKA Euro Death Knot) is the way to go in Red Rocks. Tying with different-sized ropes is fine, but you should form the knot so that the fatter rope does extra duty in roll prevention:
...
For extra security (not normally necessary but perhaps not a bad idea for simul raps) the backup should be tied so as to cut off possible rolling slack:
...
Note that the tails in the photos were tied short for illustration purposes. When you tie the knot for real, the tails should be about the length of your forearm.

Whatever knot you chose remember you must put the thicker rope through the anchor/rap ring. Especially if you simulrap.

There is a reason to thread the thicker rope. With two ropes of unequal diameter, the higher stretch of the thinner rope (together with the thinness) will typically cause it to run through the rappel device faster than the thick rope. The point of threading the thick rope is to allow the knot to jam up against the rap rings and so prevent unequal running of the strands.

If this happens with the thin rope threaded, then the knot, which is on the thick rope side, will be pulled down as the rappeller descends, with the result that the ends may be very uneven at the bottom. Without knots in the ends of the rope, uneven ends seem to be the primary cause of fatal rappelling accidents. So climbers who thread the thinner rope for the pulling advantages that method confers also have to be extra vigilent about unequal ends. One way around this is to stabilize the two strands at the anchor by clipping them together with a quickdraw for everyone but the last person down. The party below can manage the ropes in a fireman's belay for the last person, although the tug of war that might ensue could make it hard for them to descend...

It is also possible to rappel without the ends becoming uneven---the rappeller has to feed the rappel rope hand-over-hand into the device, rather than allowing the strands to slip through the brake hand.

Well it depends on the situation. If there is enough rope left I can simply relead the pitch.
...
But I guess the largest problem would be determining if there is enough rope left to reach the problem site

I don't think you've got a big enough difference. 10mm and 7.5mm and you'll see it plain as day.

If there is not enough rope left to do a normal free climb lead I can do a roped solo lead with two locking biners and a clove hitch. If both ends of the rope are still at the belay station I can ascend the line with cordlet tied in a prussic or slings with a climbheist. If there is not enough rope to relead the pitch normally, I can also use a prussic or GriGri to climb the rope in a roped solo mode as opposed to the double carabiner and clove hitch method (assuming the other end of the rope can be tied down and assuming the rope is still running through the rap ring).

But we are specifically talking about Dark Shadows, right?

What am I missing in these scenarios?

a) Could you explain why a roped solo lead requires less rope than a normal free climb lead??

c) If "both ends are at the belay station" and you have a partner, why would you ascend the lines with a prussik or klemheist? Why wouldn't you just run one (if one of the ropes is snagged off to the side and you're short on additional rope) or both ropes through your ATC or similar device (you haven't lost that or ditched it in favor of a gri-gri have you?) and have your partner give you a fireman's belay?

Knowledge of how to rope solo and ascend a fixed line, apparently.


Because for a belayed lead, the climber ties into the end of the rope and the belayer runs a bight of rope through his belay device. There has to be enough slack in the rope so that the rope will be able to run from the stuck point down to the belayer and back up to the stuck point.

When you rope solo, you anchor one end of the rope, tie into the middle of the rope, and move up your tie-in point as you ascend, so you can rope solo the route with very little slack in the rope.


To ascend a rope you use prusiks. A belay device is not necessary or useful, nor is a fireman's belay. There is no such thing as "up-rappelling."

Jay

Thanks for clarification.

Re. a) If I'm understanding right, you're proposing that he'd rope-solo the stuck end of the rope, just needing enough slack for the clove hitches and any backup knots?

I use a square knot backed up by a double fisherman, 9.8lead, and 6mm static tag for weigh and less friction when pulling.

So elegant, so simple, so... knotty. I've never used it for rapping (I just use it to secure my chalkbag belt), but with a double fisherman backup, I bet it's as good as anything else out there. The sharp bends that "weaken" it is the big argument against it, I gather, ...

So ... --what?!
So ill-suited to different-nature (size, stiffness, ...) ropes!
And backed up with Strangle knots, which are the component
halves of a Dlb.Fish./Grapevine.

Aside from poor performance w/mis-matched ropes, the Square
knot w/back-ups is much more bulky and difficult to pull over
a surface than the Offset knots previously cited. (And well
longer to tie/untie, though simple enough.)

It might be noted here that the back-up, Strangle knots in this
case are only as tight as one sets them; in contrast
to the simple Overhand back-up for the Offset Ring Bend (EDK),
which will be tensioned further by loading (if it is set properly
snug to the ORB body). Indeed, some might prefer the Thief
knot (Square form, but loaded on catercorner ends) precisely
so that in slippage it will bring the Strangle back-ups into some
tension. (But that doesn't help with flow over a surface.)

*kN*

I certainly agree about a square knot not being safe for ropes of different diameters. Sailors discovered this quite some time ago. In situations with differing ropes, there is another knot that is superior. But, I wouldn't use it for rappel. One of the dangers of the square knot is that, with ropes of differing stiffness, it can transfer into a girth hitch around one strand. Basically like a one wrap prussik. In fact, this transformation is where the other name of the square knot is derived from - the reef knot. It was used to reef sails (bundle them up for less area in the wind) because it could be shaken out by pulling on one strand. Not something I would trust without back-ups.
The EDK is much better suited for rappelling applications.

I stopped reading at "Sailors". Did I miss anything?

i understand the concept and theory behind this, but to be honest, i've never experienced it myself- and i regularly alternate which rope gets pulled, but i have never experienced noticeable rope creep with my two lines (9.8mm & 8.4mm). thats not to say it doesnt happen in other instances, i'm just posting an observation.

the higher stretch of the thinner rope (together with the thinness) will typically cause it to run through the rappel device faster than the thick rope.

Thats fucked up. Obviously it's completely human error but still, that sucks.

the higher stretch of the thinner rope (together with the thinness) will typically cause it to run through the rappel device faster than the thick rope.

... USNavy's (wise) plan is to bring two dynamic ropes. ...
So, the skinnier line WILL stretch more because it is dynamic. Otherwise, you would be right. Typically with a skinny static second line the skinny line will still run through the device more quickly it just won't stretch more.