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charlie53
Nov 22, 2002, 3:41 PM
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Over the past year or two I have progressively been placing more cams and less passive gear. I always set a multi-directional anchor at the start of a pitch and for this I use cams, hexes and nuts. When climbing however, I have almost gotten to the point where I place only cams. Is it just me or is passive pro on the way out?
Charlie
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mother_sheep
Nov 22, 2002, 4:29 PM
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I hope not. I've only lead a few trad routes and found that the placement of my nuts were right on, whereas the placement of my cams were questionable. In time this will change. However, nuts are cheaper and although passive, I find them to be VERY secure. I can't imagine that passive pro is on the outs.
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micronut
Nov 22, 2002, 4:38 PM
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Passive pro will never go out because.....
1) sometimes it's the only thing that will work... 2) it's way cheaper and lighter to carry (and leave) on long routes..3) a bomb nut feels so good, so sexy....yeah baby!
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climber_andy
Nov 22, 2002, 4:40 PM
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This is one of those wars... er, debates, that will never get a clean answer because there isn't one.
But I'm going to thrown in my two cents anyways.
I've found that I tend to use my cams a lot more when I'm leading at my limit, because they're fast and easy to place when you just want to keep moving and/or are sketched. If I have a decent stance to pause for a second though, I prefer to put in passive pro. In particular when I know there is a hard move coming up. I just find a good passive placement comes easier than a cam placement that I'm happy with, and they're awesome!
But again, everyone has their opinion about this, and someone else will post the opposite view I'm sure. I'm too lazy to find the link, but take a look at the debate about "To hex or not to hex". IIRC, it's mostly about cams vs hexes.
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pbcowboy77
Nov 22, 2002, 5:04 PM
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For me it all depends on where I'm climbing. If I'm at J-tree it's cams, that place is so hard to find a bomber nut placement. On the other hand if I'm at Tahquitz or Suicide I'll try to do routes with nuts only. So for me I love nuts but there are only so many places where you can place them.
-Zac
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danielb
Nov 22, 2002, 5:07 PM
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I think it depends where you are climbing some areas/rock types lend them selfs more to passive or active pro than other areas.
I'm finding I place allot nuts and tricams atm cause they just feel bomber while friends can be questionable...
Did any of that make any sense?
Daniel
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tradclimber2
Nov 22, 2002, 7:16 PM
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I am doing just the reverse. I am taking more passive pro on climbs and less cams. I try and use the cams mainly for anchors and set the nuts, tricams, hexes on lead. I am doing this to get more proficient at placing passive pro - primary reason is to cut down on weight AND as was already said, there are MANY times passive pro works and cams don't. As usual, practice makes perfect (or closer).
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tradguy
Nov 22, 2002, 9:02 PM
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I watch for good passive placements. When I'm climbing, I'm usually anticipating where I'm going to find a nice stance or a good spot for gear, and I automatically keep an eye out for the passive placements. If I see one that's obvious, I go for it. If I don't see an obvious one, I'll often go for a cam, just so I'm not wasting time and energy, unless I have a really nice comfortable stance, in which case I will take a little extra time to find a reasonable passive placement that might not have been so obvious at first glance.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-11-22 13:03 ]
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offwidth
Nov 22, 2002, 9:08 PM
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It's just you. Passive pro is not on its way out.
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timpanogos
Nov 22, 2002, 9:19 PM
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take a full 50 meter pitch, throw in the gear needed for the lower and upper anchors around this pitch - and you better have your fair share of passive pro in, or you sure have lots of doubled/tripled/quad up cams.
CaChing on the wallet and the back.
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krustyklimber
Nov 22, 2002, 9:54 PM
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It's just you...
Place what feels good where you place it.
As you progress as a climber you tend to move more quickly on a route, this make placing passive gear seem slow and your confidence in active gear is more enhanced as well, you may go back the other way as your placement of passive gear becomes more intuitive. You may not, most climbers tendencies are driven by their wallets, mine is more of a passive wallet (cams are to pricy for granite climbing, when passive works good for me).
Jeff
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beyond_gravity
Nov 22, 2002, 10:12 PM
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Someone here told me that I dont need cams and to learn to place passive pro first.
F*CK YOU BITCH!
I climbed on a rack of cams the other day and i'm pissed that I spent $75 on hex's...it's trade all my hexs for 2 Friends! Idiots!
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dig_scott
Nov 22, 2002, 10:20 PM
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you fag!!
this so called idiot told you to buy passive as your first gear? (give him a beer.)
lets go out and spend 500 bucks on a set of cams and not like trad. hmm. theres a thought for ya.
or lets go and spend 75 on passive and love trad. now keep that passive since you will need it more than its share, and buy some cams.
now whos the idiot?? lets start a poll...
who DOESN'T use passive??
i do.
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micronut
Nov 22, 2002, 10:52 PM
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sometimes I can grab the end loop of a wire, reach up, and slot that baby in bomb proof placements. Can't do that with a cam. Also, I place nuts to save my sexy small cams for the crux sections. Then, when it gets hard, screw the nut, just stick a cam in it and forget about it.
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drector
Nov 23, 2002, 12:02 AM
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I always look for a nut placement first. If none is around then I use a cam. This saves them for when I'm pumped and at the crux and don't have time to fiddle with a nut or when there is no nut placement. I do this because I have lots of nuts and only one set of cams.
Dave
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winkwinklambonini
Nov 23, 2002, 12:16 AM
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Stoppers are easy to place.
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winkwinklambonini
Nov 23, 2002, 12:16 AM
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Stoppers are easy to place.
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pbjosh
Nov 23, 2002, 12:32 AM
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They both certainly have their place and I wouldn't head up a hard pitch or long route with some of each. I personally don't carry hexes most of the time but I don't think they suck, I just don't carry them so much. But part of that is that when you're faced with a hand or fist crack it's usually either easy enough that I'll run it out or if it's really hard I don't want to dork with a hex. I'm definitely faster with stoppers than hexes and there are a lot more stopper placements out there than anything else, IMHO.
josh
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shiloj
Nov 23, 2002, 2:00 AM
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hey dig_scott...you sound like a real creep calling someone 'fag'. believe it or not, you are contributing to the hatred that sees gay people beat up, persecuted, and murdered.
cams or stoppers? cams when i'm at my limit and pumped: pro and go. stoppers on moderates or when the placement is beautiful and aesthetic. hexes (cowbells) never.
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tenn_dawg
Nov 23, 2002, 2:58 AM
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Okay, you started it so I've got something to say.
The term FAG used in the previous situation was a figure of speech! If I ,for example, called someone a "bitch", I would not be refering to them as a female dog, the same is true for Asshole. Unless, the person in question beared an uncanny resemblence to the aformentioned part of the anatomy then it too is a figure of speech.
Lighten up, we are living in the real world here, and occationally you hear things said. It is part of life. You are looking just a little too much into this.
Dont take this post offensively, it is not an attack on you. You simply expressed your unsolicited opinion, so I expressed mine.
Travis
[ This Message was edited by: tenn_dawg on 2002-11-22 19:00 ]
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shiloj
Nov 23, 2002, 4:28 AM
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are you trying to tell me calling someone a 'fag' is not negative because its a 'figure of speech' used as a joke, and therefore alright? bullshit.
ok...lets see if i understand you its ok to use 'figures of speech' such as kike, retard, nigger, yank, etc...as long as people know we are 'just joking' and not really meaning to be small-minded and obnoxious?
yes it is the real world, a world where words have very powerful meanings and associations. casually calling someone a 'fag' is a long way from yelling 'die fag' as you put your fist in their face, but it still contributes to an attitude of intolerance and hatred.
am i being unreasonable? should i 'chill out'? maybe think about how a gay person feels when they hear the word 'fag' being used as an insult...and try to tell me its an acceptable 'figure of speech.'
to me, if you talk like a small-minded creep, you probably are.
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camhead
Nov 23, 2002, 4:42 AM
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uhhh... shut up bedwetter.
I am not that proficient with stoppers, and I don't climb that much trad that is not at my limit.
CAMS BAY CAMS!!!!
I am the camhead, and the camhead has spoken.
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beyond_gravity
Nov 23, 2002, 4:50 AM
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Ok, my first post was a bit harsh, as I do appriciate the information I get here, and i'm sorry for that.
However I am mad, and I feel I got BAD information. Of course I use nuts, every trad climbs needs nuts! i'm talking about hex's here...but hex's were deffinatly a waste of my money scinse i'm going to buy cams anyways. also a beginner wont have the skill, stregth, or mentalitly to hang out and spend 5 mins fiddling with a hex. If anything hex's should be used by advanced climbers only.
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camhead
Nov 23, 2002, 5:01 AM
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Jeremy, remember that hexes are good for setting up belay anchors. They do have their place. I just think that the "begin with passive" approach is bunk.
That said, I've got a set of hexes that I haven't used for well over a year.
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cologman
Nov 23, 2002, 5:14 AM
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Being definitely old school I find myself going back to tried and true pro. Stoppers, even hexes are always in my bag of tricks.
Sure I always have a rack of cams but if I'm on a long rte and I question the amount of pro I'll need you can bet I be carrying a bunch of the "OLD" stuff.
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climbchick
Nov 23, 2002, 6:56 PM
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OK, I don't have a huge amount of experience but so far I much prefer a bomber nut to a cam. Makes me feel very secure.
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beyond_gravity
Nov 23, 2002, 7:48 PM
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^ ^
No offence, this is not a personal attack but I want to say this....
I hate it when people say they will take a bomber nut over a cam anyday. Of course you will! Like...it's BOMBER!
Bomber is Bomber...
Bomber nut or Bomber Cam? I'm gonna take the cam because it's most likley gonna be faster to place.
Now, I know what you mean by a bomber nut will make you feel better then a bomber cam, because, well...you can eaisly tell that there is no way it's coming out!
Same thing goes for bolts...
"I'd take a bomber gear placement over a manky bolt anyday"
Thats like saying that you would take a well placed Glue in bolt in Granite over a RP.
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foolry
Nov 23, 2002, 7:57 PM
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I think trad hugs a nut. (no pun intended) I say drill a bolt. Sport climbing rules.
P.S. I think that Shiloj IS a "Fag". and should "Chill Out"
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soaring_bird
Nov 25, 2002, 6:24 AM
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A route like Reed's Direct in Yosemite would be down right frightening if you had only cams. Conversely, Supercrack in Indian Creek would be equally scary (essentially turned into an X route) if you took hexes and no cams. So the solution is to be proficient at both, use the appropriate tool in the appropriate application, and be humble enough to downclimb to save your arse if you made the wrong choice of gear and started up something with the wrong gear. Having started leading in the '70's before cams were invented, my passive gear (including hexes) will always have a special place in my heart and on my rack. There's absolutely nothing sweeter than a cam at a pumpy crux where you can just fire it in, clip, and keep going. Cams are largely responsible for, or at least have contributed significantly to the increase in trad climbing standards. I ponder whether some of the classic Valley cracks like Crimson Cringe, the Salathe headwall, etc. would have been done yet if all we had is passive gear (assuming they did not become totally bolted clip-ups instead.) Passive gear makes for cheap rap anchors in the mountains as well.
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tradguy
Nov 25, 2002, 7:03 PM
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Passive pro is definitely NOT on the way out. For one thing, try finding a cam to replace a #3 BD Stopper. Cams don't come that small.
For another, passive pro is really cheap compared to cams, which is why you always find nuts left behind when people bail. Also, passive weighs considerably less than cams, so you can carry more pieces with less weight.
beyond_gravity:
cams are nice, but hexes are still really handy. Use them for a while before you give up on them. They might grow on you. And for the record, you can only get 1 tech friend for what you spent on the hexes ($49 each).
Click here for a very thorough discussion/argument about hexes vs. cams. Or, just check out the last page and pan down about 3/4 of the way (ignoring the long-winded Physics discussion) to see my summary and argument in favor of having hexes. (Note, this was as a supplement to cams, not a replacement.)
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-11-25 11:07 ]
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 4:03 AM
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Quote:
beyond_gravity:
cams are nice, but hexes are still really handy. Use them for a while before you give up on them.
Nah. Just give up on them. Hexes are lame. Hexes require too much fiddling. If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough.
-Jay
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apollodorus
Nov 27, 2002, 5:21 AM
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"If it fits, you must commit."
- Johnny Cochran
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jefesuave
Nov 27, 2002, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Nah. Just give up on them. Hexes are lame. Hexes require too much fiddling. If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough.
-Jay
or maybe you should learn how to place them
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
or maybe you should learn how to place them
Or maybe you should try climbing something harder than 5.6.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-27 08:54 ]
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bandycoot
Nov 27, 2002, 5:36 PM
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I don't understand.... everyone keeps mentioning tricams like passive gear. They're about as active as can be (unless set passively of course but I doubt that is what you're referring to). Also, cam placements are great. A few people have said they think their placements are sketchy. Almost all of my lead falls (if not all) have been on cams and they DO NOT BUDGE. I love em, but I love passive too!
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vegastradguy
Nov 27, 2002, 5:48 PM
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"Try climbing harder than 5.6"
What sort of comment is that?
There are plenty of 5.6 trad leads out there that are well worth getting on, even if youre a 5.10 leader.
As a beginning trad leader, when I'm out on a 5.6, I try to take the time to place a hex so I can be more familiar with them, as well as start learning to be able to just look at a crack and know what gear is best. Taking that time to work the hex not only teaches me how the hex works, but it also helps me learn the crack. Just jamming a cam in is fine if youre pumping hard, but it wont always teach you what placing a hex will teach you. Versatility. Makes rock climbers better.
That way, when I'm out on a nice little 5.10, I wont have to think about which piece to place, because I'll already know.
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 5:51 PM
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Camp Tricams are a different thing then Cams (i.e. Active camming units).
B_G: Is it jsut possible that you don't have enough patience to properly place a hex. If you practice you won't be hanging around for 5 minutes placing a hex, it'll be as easy as placing any other piece. By automatically dimissing them in your short climbing career you are limiting your climbing, your opportunities and your skills. It's much easier to place cams than hexes but nothing worth having come without a fight.
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hugepedro
Nov 27, 2002, 6:28 PM
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I don't think it's THAT much easier to place a cam than it is to place a hex or a nut. Sure, if the crack is reasonably uniform, a cam will go in faster, but I find that many cracks are not all that uniform and there are plenty of little constrictions in the interior that will take hexes and nuts beautifully. I think what it comes down to is being able to "see" the placement regardless if it's a cam or a hex/nut. If you can "see" a hex placement and make a fairly accurate guess as to which size it will take, you can place the hex just as fast as a cam. You can place it even faster than a cam if the particular placement is better suited for a hex. When I started leading I relied mostly on cams, but I found that I often fiddled with them when trying to set them in placements where there was little uniformity to the crack. Now I find that I'm "seeing" hex placements much more readily, and when one presents itself I can get a hex in way faster than a cam. I think it just comes with practice and developing your eye for the placement.
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ride
Nov 27, 2002, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Nah. Just give up on them. Hexes are lame. Hexes require too much fiddling. If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough
Damn elitists...
Hexes are god!
try carrying the same size range in cams as a full set of hexes will give you, it's like a 10-15lb difference. (at least it feels like that much)
jb: spend the time learning how to place them you won't regret it in the long run (no pun intended )
I agree with Micronut in that you should try to place passive stuff first and "save" your cams for when you get pumped.
[ This Message was edited by: ride on 2002-11-27 10:32 ]
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
As a beginning trad leader, when I'm out on a 5.6, I try to take the time to place a hex so I can be more familiar with them, as well as start learning to be able to just look at a crack and know what gear is best. Taking that time to work the hex not only teaches me how the hex works, but it also helps me learn the crack.
The only thing that placing a hex "teaches you" is how to place a hex (which isn't exactly rocket science, anyway). Once you start leading harder cracks, you won't want to hang on for the extra time it takes to place a hex instead of a cam. Chances are you'll do what I and every partner I climb with does: leave your old hexes in the closet. Since (if you progress beyond moderate trad climbing) you will eventually stop carrying them anyway, there is no point, except for deferring the cost of a second set of cams, to buying them in the first place.
-Jay
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 6:45 PM
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And you are an experienced leader, beginers like B_G aren't. Hexes have their place, just because you choose not to use them, doesn't mean they are useless. That's a tad self-centered. They are great as anchors, and I've seen them placed as quickly as nuts or cams.
Also other climbers have other motivations. According to your argument, you have to climb hard or you aren't climbing. Other people may be out to enjoy the view or the sport itself....not the grade.
*edited for spelling *
[ This Message was edited by: krillen on 2002-11-27 10:51 ]
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
According to your argument, you have to climb hard or you aren't climbing.
Show me where I said that.
Quote:
Other people may be out to enjoy the view or the sport itself....not the grade.
Just because you are a weak climber, don't assume that stronger ones climb just for the grade. On the other hand, if you're not climbing at least partly for the challenge, then why not just walk up the path on the back side.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-27 10:59 ]
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climb512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:26 PM
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I like passive as much as possible, its good practice for finding bomber placements. Cams are great,especially when at your limit for a fast placement,howerever if you place more passive when not stressed, I have found I can now place passive just as quick(almost) and I trust my placements more. Now I am not just jamming a cam in a iffy spot. So now my rack is lighter as I do not need to carry as many cams.
Have a great holiday
ps.ice is in the daks!
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 7:38 PM
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"If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough." - or maybe I was just reading too much into what you said?
Some people climb Trad for the mental challenge. They enjoy finding good placements, kind of like a puzzle. Some people enjoy the view, the exposure, or getting out in to nature. If they do it on a 5.6, so what? This isn't my style, I enjoy the physical challange, along with all of those other things, but I still think hexes have their place, and can be utilized as quickly and effectively as any other piece of gear on your rack. If you abjectly dismiss them you are limiting you options. personally I like to have my options open.
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vegastradguy
Nov 27, 2002, 7:42 PM
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Why just not buy the hexes?
Here's why.
The reason people tell beginners not to use cams is because cams walk. How many 5.6-5.8 climbs have you been up and found at least 3 cams stuck in the wall? I have yet to climb a single pitch easier than 5.8 and NOT see a lost cam!
As I have climbed more, I have come to prefer hexes in many situations because I am NOT pumped on lead, and I don't read cracks well enough yet in many situations to trust my cams not to walk.
That said, I still use cams if its a perfect placement or if I'm pumped out and I need a fast piece, but I prefer the hexes to give me the training I need to read the cracks for the cams. Stoppers can't do that because they are too small for most of my cams, but my hexes have a nice crossover.
In the long run, I may decrease my hex usage in favor of cams, but honestly, I LOVE my hexes. I placed every single one of them on my last multipitch, along with all my cams. I can't imagine not having a nice set of hexes along with all my other gear.
Not to mention having 3 extra large hexes as bail pieces. Ain't no way I'm leaving 2 or 3 cams in the wall to bail!
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:43 PM
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Quote:If you abjectly dismiss them [hexes] you are limiting you options.
No, in practice, you are increasing your options. If you carry (extra) cams instead of hexes, you have more placement options, not fewer.
-Jay
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jefesuave
Nov 27, 2002, 7:46 PM
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Wow jt512 Im impressed that just by looking at what kind of gear i place you know what grade I climb. Now thats impressive. And who are you to tell me that Im not climbing hard enough? If I were only a 5.6 climber, and that were as hard as I wanted to climb, then that is plenty hard enough for me. Get over yourself.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
The reason people tell beginners not to use cams is because cams walk.
Who the hell is telling beginners not to use cams in the first place, much less because they can walk if not correctly placed?
-Jay
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 7:54 PM
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I disagree JT. By increasing your rack weight (Cams vs Hexes) you are decreasing the variety of climbs you can do (assuming you have the same climbing ability/Strength in both situations). More weight on you harness increases the work your muscles have to perform.
Also you are decreasing the variety of placements you can use. By definition a wider variety of gear will have more options for placement then more numbers of the same piece.
There are lot so places you can put a hex that a cam won't work, and vice versa. But if you have both kinds of gear you can make placements in both situations. If you only have cams, you can't.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Wow jt512 Im impressed that just by looking at what kind of gear i place you know what grade I climb.
Actually, I never thought about it that way, but I'd say that you could guess how hard someone climbs by the hexes they carry, if any. I'd say it was something like this:
Shiny hexes, no cams 5.5
Shiny hexes, shiny cams 5.6
Hexes, shiny cams 5.7
Hexes and cams 5.8
Cams only 5.9 +
Really banged up hexes slung with cord 5.11+ offwidth
-Jay
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bradbaker
Nov 27, 2002, 8:35 PM
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>How many 5.6-5.8 climbs have you been up
>and found at least 3 cams stuck in the >wall?
Zero. And I've climbed a lot of routes in
a lot of different places.
>I have yet to climb a single pitch easier
>than 5.8 and NOT see a lost cam!
Seriously? Sounds like a vast exaggeration to me. If true, I would love to climb where you climb. Booty city.
>In the long run, I may decrease my hex >usage in favor of cams ...
Yes. If you keep climbing, you most likely will feel the pull of the Dark Side. I'm sure they exist, but I haven't run into a single experienced climber that prefers hexes over cams for the majority of placements. I still carry hexes on occassion. Usually when I'm going super light and don't want to bring multiple cams covering the same range.
>Not to mention having 3 extra large hexes >as bail pieces.
This is where hexes excel. Cheap gear that I don't use enough to care about leaving behind. Of course, I usually make that decision when racking up, not when bailing. Nuts and slings have served me well for bail gear since leaving the hexes behind.
[ This Message was edited by: bradbaker on 2002-11-27 12:59 ]
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mountainmonkey
Nov 27, 2002, 8:55 PM
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Many people say that you can only place cams on hard trad climbs or else you are wasting your time, pumping out, fiddling with nuts/hexes - that is BULLSH!T.
Unless the climb is single pitch, the same difficulty the whole way and overhanging - nuts and hexes will be useful. You have a good stance and a good bottleneck above your head - BAM hex/stopper. You get to a belay - BAM hex/stopper. Crux - BAM cam. (with batman like sounds)
If you climb like this, you can climb at your limit AND carry less weight in gear. On my hardest trad climbs I carry passive gear and cams.
Also, that "you dont climb hard enough if..." is a bunch of bullsh!t. Is there anyone who climbs harder than you? What do they carry? Not just your friends but everyone who climbs harder than you - what do they carry?
Also, jt, I hate to be nosey but I noticed that your hardest climbs are bolted climbs and not many under your hardest were trad climbs. It doesn't sound like you are climbing very hard at trad yourself. If you have a 'sport climber' frame of mind, it would explain why you think that cams are the only way to go. Anyway, you posted it here so don't be shy if people notice it.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 10:26 PM
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Quote:Many people say that you can only place cams on hard trad climbs or else you are wasting your time, pumping out, fiddling with nuts/hexes - that is BULLSH!T.
Actually, we've (well, me, at least) have just said that about hexes, not nuts. Of course you'd have to be able to read and comprehend the English language to get that.
Quote:
Unless the climb is single pitch, the same difficulty the whole way and overhanging - nuts and hexes will be useful. You have a good stance and a good bottleneck above your head - BAM hex/stopper.
Who says you have a good stance? I was talking about hard climbs, where the placements are strenuous. And the problem with hexes is you can't "BAM" place them. You need to finesse them into place.
Quote:
If you climb like this, you can climb at your limit AND carry less weight in gear. On my hardest trad climbs I carry passive gear and cams.
So does everybody. It's just hexes that they don't carry.
Quote:
Also, that "you dont climb hard enough if..." is a bunch of bullsh!t. Is there anyone who climbs harder than you?
Lots of people.
Quote:
What do they carry? Not just your friends but everyone who climbs harder than you - what do they carry?
I can't really speak for everybody, f---wit, but I can speak for the majority of hard trad climbers at Josh, Tahquitz and Suicide, and they don't carry hexes.
Quote:
Also, jt, I hate to be nosey but I noticed that your hardest climbs are bolted climbs and not many under your hardest were trad climbs. It doesn't sound like you are climbing very hard at trad yourself.
That's true. I mostly sport climb these days (that wasn't always the case, BTW), and I lead trad only to the mid-10s, but the absolute numbers aren't all that relevant. It's how close to your personal limit you're climbing. When you're at your limit, whether it's 5.8 or 5.12, you're going to be wishing you had something besides a hex to place.
-Jay
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mountainmonkey
Nov 27, 2002, 11:05 PM
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thank you for responding directly to me. Your answers explain a lot.
I can read. I was just too lazy to go through all the bull sh!t to find out exactly every word that had been discussed. The title of the forum IS "Placing more cams and less nuts". I also said "nuts/hexes". I think you need to calm down a little. Although it is quite amusing to me.
I carry hexes on my hardest climbs. I use them to back up the anchor and it makes a lot more sense than carrying 3, 4 or more sets of cams - weight wise. I also place them at stances - it might not be a hands free stance but it still might be a rest stance and I will want the cams later. Even hard climbs usually have rest stances or sections that are easier than the crux. It sure is nice to end up at a belay with just a few nuts and hexes to back it up AND you didn't climb with any excess gear on the climb.
Another thing said explains a whole lot. "I can't really speak for everybody, f---wit, but I can speak for the majority of hard trad climbers at Josh, Tahquitz and Suicide, and they don't carry hexes." You are talking about relatively short climbs (2-3 pitch) with short approaches - especially in Josh. I have only climbed in Joshua Tree so correct me if I am wrong on the others. Again I relate this to the general sport climber mentality - 'what is the easiest way to get some climbing in'. If it is a hard overhanging crack right off the ground sure I might carry all cams. What about alpine stuff? What about LONG hard climbs? What about LOOONG approaches? or are those type of climbs not hard? What about not-so-hard climbs - or are you too elite to consider those ones?
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vegastradguy
Nov 27, 2002, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
"Who the hell is telling beginners not to use cams in the first place, much less because they can walk if not correctly placed? "
Um, that's pretty standard both on this site and from most experienced trad leaders i know. I've read more than one post that beginners should stick to passive pro, and gradually work into active. Of course, walking is only one reason. The other is being able to read the crack for the right cam, overcamming, undercamming, weight, cost, etc. Trad leading is hard enough when you begin without having to worry about all that.
As far as cams stuck in the wall, come out to Red Rocks sometime, its where I climb. I saw 4 buried cams on Froglands when I climbed it this summer, 3 on Tunnelvision (+ 1 lost nut), 3 out at Moderate Mecca on various climbs, and 1 on Crimson Chrysalis. I keep meaning to build myself a 'cam remover', but I havent gotten around to it yet. You're right, it is Booty City here.
Now, in maintaining my personal motto: "thou shalt not get involved in petty arguments" I am bailing from this forum. It's starting to get stupid. Everyones got their preference in gear. I carry hexes, stoppers, & cams. JT carries quickdraws and used to carry cams. Who cares either way? I guess if someones really wrong here, they'll find themselves in a really crappy situation one day, and somehow I doubt they'll think back to this discussion and go "Wow, I really wish I had listened to so and so on Rock Climbing.com"
Toodles, kids. Have fun.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 11:23 PM
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Quote:The title of the forum IS "Placing more cams and less nuts". I also said "nuts/hexes". I think you need to calm down a little. Although it is quite amusing to me.
First of all, it's a "thread" or a "topic," not a "forum." Secondly, if you had bothered to read through the thread, you'd have seen that it was only hexes that people were saying are less useful than cams, not nuts. Indeed, you were referring "hexes/nuts," not just nuts.
Quote:
I carry hexes on my hardest climbs.
And your hardest climbs are how hard? And have you noticed that hardly anyone else carries them? Ever wonder why?
Quote:
I use them to back up the anchor and it makes a lot more sense than carrying 3, 4 or more sets of cams - weight wise.
What the hell do you mean "back up the anchor"? Since when do anchors need backing up? And I've never carried three sets of cams in my life (no, I've never climbed desert splitters).
Quote:
Another thing said explains a whole lot. "I can't really speak for everybody, f---wit, but I can speak for the majority of hard trad climbers at Josh, Tahquitz and Suicide, and they don't carry hexes." You are talking about relatively short climbs (2-3 pitch) with short approaches - especially in Josh. I have only climbed in Joshua Tree so correct me if I am wrong on the others.
No, you're absolutely correct. There are no long routes at Tahquitz and the approach is a piece of cake.
Quote:
What about LONG hard climbs? What about LOOONG approaches?
The length of the climb and the approach are irrelevant if the route is hard -- very few climbers carry hexes or attempt to place them on hard routes.
-Jay
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mountainmonkey
Nov 27, 2002, 11:57 PM
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Thanks for explaining the forum thing. Aparantly you understood what I was trying to convey and just wanted to add to more of the bullsh!t on this website
On my hardest climbs I have seen (actually heard - cowbells) others who also carry hexes. Of course these are not usually 1 pitch climbs but longer climbs with long approaches that require mutiples of hand sized pieces.
Anchors that aren't good bolts need to be backed up: fixed nut and fixed pin belay/rap anchors.
Some climbs require multiple handsized pieces - not just desert splitters.
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tradklime
Nov 28, 2002, 12:07 AM
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I find the thought of not using nuts ridiculous. A rack of only Cams I personally usually climb with a double set of nuts and a double set of cams and use them equally.
A lot of you know where I stand on the Hex vs. Cam debate . How does it always come back to this? I guess the trad community is really polarized on this issue. However, one point was made earlier, most climbers who are pushing the ratings do not regularly climb with Hexes. There is probably a reason.
I would love to see someone climb the second pitch of Country Club Crack in Boulder Canyon with hexes (A difficult climb for us mortals). I know it was done at some point but those quys were the definition of hard men.
Bottom line is there will always be a place in climbing for passive pro, but choose your own weapons.
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topher
Nov 28, 2002, 12:57 AM
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if you are not placing passive pro you missing out on better placments! a cam is easie to place but if a nut fits better i want the safest thing. that and if i have to bail i would rather leave a few nuts then a few hundered bucks in cams!
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krillen
Nov 29, 2002, 2:03 AM
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JT: ever think that maybe you only notice what you use?
Personally I hear "cowbells" and hexes all over the place. hard climbs, easy climbs, limestone, sandstone, granite, etc.
Also I carry them up 10+ trad, and they seem to work fine for me?
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jt512
Nov 29, 2002, 2:46 AM
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Quote:There are lot so places you can put a hex that a cam won't work...
There are? You can put a hex in a parallel or downwardly constricting crack which doesn't flare outwardly. You can put a cam in those placements plus moderately downwardly and outwardly flared cracks. Plus, each hex fits exactly three sizes of placements whereas each cam fits an infinite number of placements throughout its useful range. So a set of cams will give you more placement options than a set of hexes covering the same size range.
Quote:
By definition a wider variety of gear will have more options for placement then more numbers of the same piece.
Wrong. A set of cams gives you more placement options than a set of hexes. This statment is true regardless of how many sets of cams you are carrying.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-28 22:43 ]
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brutusofwyde
Dec 1, 2002, 5:53 AM
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Personally I quit using hexes twenty years ago, and never looked back. Stoppers have their place. My rack these days varies depending on the climbing area, but generally goes like this:
Long free climbs near my limit: 1 set Friends or titanium cams, 1 set Camalots, 1-2 sets stoppers or similar.
Long routes in the backcountry not near my limit: 1 set cams, some assorted Lowe Tricams, 1 set stoppers.
Cragging: Cams and stoppers.
The cams vs hexes debate has been raging since Jardine started establishing cutting edge climbs using his toys. But those that attempted to repeat his climbs using hexes quickly became converts to the religion of SLCD.
I would never recommend to a beginner to buy a set of hexes. Waste of money, in my opinion.
Brutus
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nimo
Dec 1, 2002, 7:33 AM
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I just could not resist a little comment on all this. I love hexes and cams both for different reasons and different locations. I have taught quite a few people to lead trad and prefer to start them out on passive gear. The reason for this is first cost, one can get a decent rack of nuts, hexes, and tricams, more pieces for less $. The second main reason is learning to take care in ones placements and learn to think of the direction a piece will be loaded if one falls. There are a few places I climb that hexes are king, it is easy to find great hex placements and hard to find good cam placements. Other places I climb cams rule. When I was younger and had no $ for cams I was unwilling to climb many routs because I needed cams to effectively protect them i.e. parallel cracks. However to date I have ample supplies of both hexes and cams. There are some climbs I will leave my hexes on the ground because the route is hard to protect with them and easy with cams and vise versa others I leave the cams on the ground. Also, there are several routes I know where a hex is bomber and a cam is vary sketch. When it warms up I will try and post a pic. I believe a lot has to do with the aria you climb at and your budget. At the end of the day they all have a place on my rack.
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klimberbob
Dec 14, 2002, 12:30 AM
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i always go passive over a cam if given the option...
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vulgarian
Dec 17, 2002, 6:36 AM
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I love cams - but there is nothing sweeter and more reassuring to me than those perfect nut placements.
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holdplease2
Jan 4, 2003, 6:33 AM
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Here is a post I scavaged from the "accidents" forum. Speaks for itself.
Please see the quote below on your topic. I scavanged it from the accidents section
Posted: 2001-09-26 15:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw a leader hit the ground from about 40' up, after he fell and ripped 2 pieces of gear. It was ~ 14 years ago at the Gunks. The route can be protected well using small wired nuts, but he was relying instead on small cams placed in shallow pockets on either side of the crack. Both of these cams pulled out easily under a short fall, and the next piece down wasn't high enough to keep him from decking. He hit the ground on his feet & then bounced backwards & landed on his head on a rock (no helmet). My partner & I were standing right next to where he hit, and we helped with first aid & immobilization until a litter and more people arrived. I heard later that he survived and was recovering from a serious head injury. There are some important points to be reinforced by this unfortunate accident:
1)Don't pick a climb that's near the limit of your leading ability, when it's your first day of climbing that season. Take the time to warm up & get your leading head together on some easier routes.
2)Use the best protection that's available to you; ie don't pass up a perfect nut placement in favor of a questionable cam.
3)When near the ground, always have enough gear in to keep you from hitting the ground if your top piece or 2 fails.
4)Wear a helmet
END QUOTE
Sorry, but I could not find the poster's information
The moral of the story is, know how to place ALL of your gear, know how to judge which PLACEMENT is better, not just which type of gear is your preferred or the most technologically advanced.
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billcoe_
Jan 4, 2003, 3:59 PM
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Plenty of opionions here. I agree with vegastradguy, petty arguements suck. As far as that goes, I was on Frogland not long ago, and some of those cams have been pulled out. Congrats if thats you Vegas.
Depends on the climb. All have their uses. I tend to not carry hexes unless the climb uses them. If the guidebook says "pro to 3"" and it looks to be long pitches, you can expect me to have some hexes on my rack. For SOME (note that word SOME) placements, nuts AND hexes are the best.
But it depends on the route, grade vis-a-vis my abilities that day, and even the climbing area as well.
Bill
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holdplease2
Jan 4, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Hey VEGAS TRADGUY!
Was one of those cams a green DMM? If it was, SEND IT TO ME! (Kidding) Thats what you get for posting your booty finds!
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 5, 2003, 5:02 AM
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My first rack was roped stoppers and slung hexes. Needless to say I mostly stuck to runout 5.10 slab climbs because it was way safer then leading on hexes.
(josh, suicide and taquitz) At that time I was way jealous of people who had gone with tri cams.
As soon as Friends came out all my hexes became windchimes. (except for small wired hexes which I carried for years to use in water grooves. tossed those to eventually)
In the valley and tuolumne, stoppers work as good or better than cams.
the best of both worlds is to place a cam like a stopper.
If your argument is to save weight my answer would be to run it out until you get to a stopper placement. (stoppers are way lighter then hexs)
I don’t carry any stoppers larger then a #10 because for the same weight you can carry a alien of the same size.
As far as having gear to bail in an emergency, stoppers are cheaper then hexes and more secure to boot
As far as cams walking, pre walk them when you place them and/or put a long sling on them.
I always try to use stoppers for belays (especially on multi-pitch) (know how to build a multi-directional anchor with stoppers) if the stoppers aren’t totally bomber toss a cam in for back up.
The only way I would carry hexes is if I wanted to play old school. I.e. climb with hexes, roped stoppers, EB’s and a goldline rope
dan
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benkiessel
Jan 16, 2003, 6:02 PM
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passive pro rocks! cams are a waste of money and weight to much when you can place a stopper or a hex just as solidly. don't get me wrong i have cams but i prefer a solid hex over a cam.
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grundleson
Jan 18, 2003, 11:43 PM
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When i first started climbing trad i could only afford nuts so thats what i learned with, i got really really creative in how i placed my gear. so now when i go climbing, i always try and place passive gear first. then go for the cams. just a personal thing for me i guess
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phugganut
Jan 19, 2003, 12:07 AM
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Both are good, but w/passive pro there is no mechanical error. If you don't like hexes then don't use them but I don't think they're so bad. Tri-cams friggin rock!
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:07 PM
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charlie53,
you are reducing your ability to make safe and strong anchors. limiting your personal knowledge will only cost you and your partners. always practice all form of protection. the better your personal knowledge the better climber you will be.
passive pro is equally as important as camming devices. if anyone tells you different they are idiots.
the more you know, the better you are.
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nut_scratcher
Sep 16, 2008, 10:46 PM
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hexes and cams are both handy in my opinion and there isn't really an absolute that needs to be debated. It's simply a matter of preference; which tool is the right tool for the job. there's really no need to b!tch about it.
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nut_scratcher
Sep 16, 2008, 10:48 PM
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Amen.
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seatbeltpants
Sep 17, 2008, 12:07 AM
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did you just "amen" your own response to a thread you dug up from five years ago???
steve
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el_layclimber
Sep 17, 2008, 12:27 AM
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hallelujah!
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jeremy11
Sep 17, 2008, 2:21 AM
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blah blah blah nuts blah blah cams blah blah......
I just hammer pitons in everywhere. cheap, bomber, old school, weird, destructive.... wonderful!
sheesh.
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kane_schutzman
Sep 17, 2008, 2:36 AM
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Charlie, I am also a victim of the cams conveinance. I place them all the time. The only time I place a nut is when Im cruising and find a perfect pocket that looks like its build for the perfect nut. I do however use lots a passive in my achors. When I first started Trad though, I did place alot of nuts. but thats because I didnt have many cams. lol.
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i_h8_choss
Sep 17, 2008, 3:42 AM
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[quote "charlie53"]Over the past year or two I have progressively been placing more cams and less passive gear. I always set a multi-directional anchor at the start of a pitch and for this I use cams, hexes and nuts. When climbing however, I have almost gotten to the point where I place only cams. Is it just me or is passive pro on the way out?
Charlie
[/quote]
holy shit. this thread is awsome. the beauty of placing gear is in art-form in my opinion. its nice to hear others speak of this delicate art. allright....im going crack climbing. my nuts are so sly and slide in real nice while my cams are placed w/ pure accuracy and precision. put a piece in bi-atch. sweeeet. next pitch----
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petsfed
Sep 17, 2008, 3:49 AM
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This thread hungers for braaaaaiiiiiiinnnnsssss!
Just to add fuel to the fire: I only carry my #9 hex these days. All of my other hexes stay on the ground (in the closet, really). I have one set of stoppers. And nearly a triple set of cams (I've only a single set south of a .75 camalot, and only doubles above a #5 friend).
I've recently started placing more and more nuts, for the simple reason that my interests have tended towards thinner cracks. Since I lack the fingers rack of my dreams, I have to use nuts, and also because a key-lock nut placement simply will not take a cam as well.
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dlintz
Sep 17, 2008, 4:33 AM
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Thanks nut scratcher for resurrecting a 6 year old thread, that first page is full of responses from peeps I don't see around this site anymore (sniff).
d.
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dingus
Sep 17, 2008, 5:04 AM
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Good ole jt dispensing wisdom... he had more patience back then. Hair too probably.
I carry 6 nuts on my normal rack. They are HB Offsets, Rulers of the Wasteland, far superior to ALL OTHER NUTS.
The reason I only carry 6 is they are THAT GOOD.
I used to carry a whole biner of BD nuts too. Then I found myself fiddling the BDs into spots where the Offsets RULED, simply to try and conserve them for higher in the pitch.
How WHACK is THAT?
So like I experimented with the ole 'ooops, I did it again (left the BDs in the car). I found I missed them not.
In general unless its a perfect nut placement I prefer a cam for many reasons previously stated.
But those offsets will fit where NOTHING else will.
I'm tellin ya.... Rulers.
of the Wasteland.
DMT
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mtnrock
Sep 17, 2008, 10:16 PM
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i just hate falling on my nuts any time i just hurts so much
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kennoyce
Sep 17, 2008, 10:41 PM
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well said Thomas, Long time no see, we need to climb together soon. now, onto the question at hand. No, passive isn't going out. Passive pro rocks, and is much more bomber in many instances. I agree that hexes are only good in the sizes larger than nuts, why anyone would ever buy hexes in sizes overlapping nuts is beyond me, but hey, I'm sure there are people who prefer hexes to nuts, all though I've never met anyone like this. lastly, cams do rock when you pumped, or just trying to go fast.
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kennoyce
Sep 17, 2008, 10:48 PM
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I love the fact that I just replied to this post, and then realized that my friend Thomas who I was replying to had written his post back in 2002, that rocks. anyway great job digging up an old, but never dead thread whoever did it.
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nut_scratcher
Sep 18, 2008, 12:26 AM
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no, i was trying to amen something completely different and don't know how to use blogs. And i didn't dig anything up. why do you care?
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seatbeltpants
Sep 18, 2008, 12:35 AM
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meh, i just always find it odd when post to old threads and the conversation carries on like there hadn't be a five year pause.
carry on!
steve
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 18, 2008, 1:02 AM
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I think its impossible to invent a cover - all rule for which is 'better,' and favor the tool-for-the-trade aspect.
When I am climbing a route at my limit (which is mid 5.10) I usually bring a few light nuts. Sometimes you get a good stance, and a buried nut inspires a lot of confidence. When the climbing gets harder and the placements more strenuous, I go for cams (probably exclusively). Now, a partner of mine (who is much, much stronger) doesn't consider himself much of a "trad" climber, but will hang off a crimp and fiddle with nuts (he is a mutant). It works for him, but goddamn, I ain't strong enough to wank with a nut like that!
NOW! The juice. Most of my climbing is done on long, easy, fun routes far below my level. I bring a set of DMM offsets (they be the best!) and a smattering of metolius TCU's / 4CU's. I work at a gear shop and got a good deal on these pricey light cams, and the whole rack is pretty light. If I plan on simul climbing long sections I might take more cams, but rarely more nuts. It takes longer to fiddle em in, they each require their own seperate sling and a biner (in a pinch a cam can also become a quickdraw!) and, really, seem best to build belays with and leave if you gotta bail.
Nuts have their place, some love em and some don't. I saw Beth Rodden in Dosage V placing a nut on a 5.13 stance, so I know it can be done. Not for me tho.... I'll just sink in a bomber cam and keep going.
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nut_scratcher
Sep 18, 2008, 3:35 PM
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ok yeah, now i see how old this thread is. haha. oh well, i guess i'm not really helping my cause by resurrecting an argument in the same comment in which i tried to end it.
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hansundfritz
Sep 18, 2008, 3:54 PM
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Large hexes come in handy when you can't reach the fist hand-hold -- just step up on that #12 and get 4 more inches of reach.
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jaablink
Sep 18, 2008, 4:29 PM
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2 more cents: both nut and cam placements are equally as fast to place. If they are not for you , you are not proficient enough in one or the other. You should practice your weak areas to become better overall. It will be a benefit to you.
As far as one being better than the other in a placement. Its all relative.
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hafilax
Sep 18, 2008, 9:58 PM
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You can always short clip the sling on a cam but you typically have to put a sling on a nut so it may take the same time to place it but once you incorporate clipping a draw the time to place a nut has to be longer on average.
There are many pin scarred cracks around here that will only take nuts and others where cams will plug up the only useful hold whereas a nut still allows some usage of the pin scar as a hand and a foot hold.
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jaablink
Sep 18, 2008, 10:36 PM
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You should be carrying single-length runners quick-draw style. This way you can cover 3 different lengths by unclipping it from 1 or 2 of the 3 loops . This will work for all protective equipment. i.e. cams nuts hex….
Perfect practice makes perfect
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tradrenn
Sep 20, 2008, 2:46 AM
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halifax wrote: There are many pin scarred cracks around here that will only take nuts
Please name a few routes.
Just curious.
Thanks.
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sungam
Sep 20, 2008, 7:04 PM
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dlintz wrote: Thanks nut scratcher for resurrecting a 6 year old thread, that first page is full of responses from peeps I don't see around this site anymore (sniff). d.
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mtnrock
Sep 21, 2008, 12:24 AM
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i find nuts easier to place no things to pull and i find that its hard to get deep in a crack with a cam. and alot of the time you should double the length of a sling on a cam so it doesn't walk in and you lose your cam
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Yogisan
Sep 23, 2008, 7:19 PM
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LOL! On my first trad lead... I placed a mix of stoppers and cams plus one hex. Because I was so green I swear it took just as long to place one as the other. It was terrifying... most execellent. Honestly, I would be hard pressed if told I had to choose one or the other. So much depends on how I am feeling and the nature of the route. I love the feeling of being pumped out, a little desperate, and placing that cam quickly. Other times I love the challenge of finding that really bomber nut placement and the elegance of the simplicty it provides. I do know that I tend to place cams more often than other forms of pro (including tricams, stoppers, and hexes) and so if I don't practice my passive pro placement gets sloppy. Also, I have a hard time trusting my larger cams as I feel they tend to walk quite a bit more. It is hard to beat a Big Bro for scenarios like this. Just my opinion.
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hafilax
Sep 23, 2008, 8:59 PM
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tradrenn wrote: halifax wrote: There are many pin scarred cracks around here that will only take nuts Please name a few routes. Just curious. Thanks.
I haven't climbed any finger cracks this summer so my memory is fuzzy. I remember placing lots of nuts on Exasperator and not for a lack of cams. I climbed Dierdre the other night which is rife with pin scars that won't take cams although I was so tired that I ended up running most of it out. It's easy to do when you can't see your last piece anyway. I remember taking a few falls onto a nut on the Sword. If it would have taken a good cam I'm sure I would have plugged it.
A guy died after a cam pulled on Flying Circus which takes nuts pretty easily. Like Exasperator, a good finger lock pin scar makes for a good nut. There's such a range of nut sized that will fit yet only one cam size that will so nut placements are often easier to judge.
I'm struggling a bit so I guess it was an overstatement. YMMV
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