Huh?

He was clipping the line with sport draws and if he needed a longer draw he'd either just use a sling with 2 biners or extend the sport draw.

I don't personally like using sport draws for trad climbing, but that sounds pretty much standard to me.

So yesterday I was out doing some trad work and there was another leader there who was doing something interesting. So interesting I thought I'd get a consensus here.

He had his rack organized in the usual way. 2 pieces per and sorted by size.

However he was using regular length quick draws for trad draws. ??? Huh ??? I asked him about it and he explained it makes racking easier for him. If he's climbing sport he detaches the cams and wedges leaving the draws.

If he's on trad he's got draws ready to go. If he needs to extend them he's got a half-dozen non-lockers and a bunch of slings (single, double, triple) that he can extend with. It seemed odd to me.

- His rack was tidy. The way he clipped the draws on to the trad pieces had the draws hanging no lower than his trad pieces.

Was his protection attached to sport draws on his rack? That's totally stupid, for a whole ton of reasons.

GO

Could you please be more clear. I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Was his protection attached to sport draws on his rack? That's totally stupid, for a whole ton of reasons.

If this is for real, I'd say it's a pretty good bet this person has never climbed at the Gunks.

JL

I still can't figure out what you are trying to say either. Could you try that again?

Why have the sport draw at all? If it doesn't need extension, then clip into the sling on the cam.

Here I rigged his exact setup including how he racks at the very bottom. If you look at the two above his rack the Camalot 4 and 5 there's no noticeable difference. One is a 12" sling doubled the other is a regular length BD draw.

His rack looks like it' has two Camalots and a draw. He clips one of the two re-racks the other clips in and he's gone.

Pardon me for challenging the neo-canon of rock climbing, but the reason you extend a placement is to minimize rope drag, but by extending, you increase the length of any fall. Thus, if you know you need to extend, it makes sense to have many options for how much you extend by. Unless your quickdraws magically stiffen the cam sling or so completely fail to extend the placement that the nut is walked out by the stiff sling, they are certainly sufficient for extending a placement. The reason most trad climbers don't carry them has NOTHING to do with the stiffness of the sling. It is because such short slings are relatively specialized when you get a multi-use tool with a long sling that you can shorten. Why carry a heavier single-use tool when you could carry a multi-use tool for the same weight, right?

Just like it bugs me that we have an entire generation of climbers chanting "trad-draw!" when its just a sling, it bugs me that we have an entire generation of climbers convinced that if they clip their quickdraws to anything but bolts, western civilization will fall. Use your brains for a second and really think about what it is you're saying.

As far as pre-racking slings on pieces, I do it all the time on routes whose sling length I know very well. Hell, climbing in the Flatirons above Boulder, CO, its worthwhile to put everything on a shoulder length sling before you leave the ground.

There isn't a problem using sport draws in place of extendable runners IN THE RIGHT SITUATION. You obviously don't understand why you extend slings on gear in the first place, otherwise you would understand the situation where using a stiffer draw would be okay.

There's nothing "wrong" with this. It looks like it would become a clusterfuck to me, but if you really want to try it then knock yourself out.

Why carry a heavier single-use tool when you could carry a multi-use tool for the same weight, right?

Climbing isn't religion

Ah! I see where you went wrong now....

DMT

Hallelujah! I should take a "religious holiday" whenever the weather is as perfect as today!

Yes you should do that... right now. GO!

Tell em your Spiritual Advisor issued a prescription.

DMT

There are plenty of times where clipping into gear with a quickdraw is fine, but I can't think of a time where it would be optimal unless you were clipping a bolt.

I've found that clipping nuts with a quickdraw on relatively rope-drag free pitches meant that I had to carry less weight to ensure that the nut didn't get wiggled out by regular rope drag.

In that case, a doubled or tripled sling would increase the cluster-fuck probabilities (somebody once called this your coefficient of wank, but I dare not summon him) whereas the simple quickdraw would not.

Now I'll drop my secret. He explained that sometimes he will rack up that way to lure people into conversation.

I've found that clipping nuts with a quickdraw on relatively rope-drag free pitches meant that I had to carry less weight to ensure that the nut didn't get wiggled out by regular rope drag.

Sometimes I clip all my draws, sport, trad and even my bouldering draws, together end to end as a chain. Then I wrap that chain around my waist.

As I climb I simply take the end draw off the chain and clip it to the piece.

Now sometimes the next draw isn't suitable for the placement, in which case I TOSS the useless sonofabitch and peel off the next one, like terlit paper.

DMT

So yesterday I was out doing some trad work

Need to re rack the unused piece, resulting in gear racked in a couple of ways (on draw or re racked without one) and forcing you to fiddle around getting it back in order.

That is absolutely true... in principle. In fact, I did that for years, and when climbing, I pretty much always took between one and three quickdraws in place the same number of standard tripled draws.

But after a while I noticed that the sport draws were often the last draw left on my harness as I finished the pitch (because there happened to be no such "perfect" nut placements with zero chance of rope drag on that pitch), and I needed a real draw, and didn't have any.

So I ditched the QDs in favor of regular tripled draws that were more useful.

It ways a few grams more, but want a tip? You can (and I do!) save far more weight by leaving behind a few biners. I carry three draws over my shoulder with only one biner on each. Those go on cams. Much better way to save a few ounces.

To the OP - sounds like you would have been a sucker for snake-oil salesmen back in the day. Did this guy have a glint in his eye that seemed irresistable? His system obviously sucks. Don't listen to the rest of us - even he told you he just does it just for yuks. But nevertheless, you like it.

I don't think all of the rest of us are moonies who have drunk the "we must all think the same" cool-aid. I think you have a man-crush.

GO

My point was that dogmatically saying "DRAWS ARE BAD!" and then using faulty reasoning to justify not carrying perfectly good climbing gear is a tactic one typically associates with utter neophytes, but I see otherwise very experienced climbers chanting precisely that.

I am, however, not denying that short draws as such remain a specialty piece, and in general, I only carry a few and typically wind up using them on any nuts I put in an anchor. However, there is one route at Vedauwoo that I consistently prerig a cam on a quickdraw so that I won't hit a ledge if I blow it before my next piece (its close enough that a full length sling would cause a ground fall), because a tripled sling takes just a little bit more time to fiddle with, and its kind of a pumpy position.

Not all the time, and not even that often, but it still happens.

My point was that dogmatically saying "DRAWS ARE BAD!" and then using faulty reasoning to justify not carrying perfectly good climbing gear is a tactic one typically associates with utter neophytes, but I see otherwise very experienced climbers chanting precisely that.

Sometimes I clip all my draws, sport, trad and even my bouldering draws, together end to end as a chain. Then I wrap that chain around my waist.

As I climb I simply take the end draw off the chain and clip it to the piece.

Now sometimes the next draw isn't suitable for the placement, in which case I TOSS the useless sonofabitch and peel off the next one, like terlit paper.

DMT

Don't be fooled. I understand many things. What I enjoy most about this place is that there's lots of people who share a lot of views here. I know how I'm racked and I know why. I hand tied all my slings back when that was what you did. They've been good too. I've had the same thoughts as many about sewing their own runners, bartacks and other considerations.

But the discussions here are nothing short of marvelous. So far petsfed gets it. But I'm enjoying the opinions while strengthening my own.

Just because this guy did it differently doesn't make him wrong. He's been climbing trad for 30 years can you say that? I cannot.

I had some fascinating conversations with this guy and found out he was an an author of a few books on the sport in general so don't be too judgmental. He enjoys getting a rise out of people.

Now I'll drop my secret. He explained that sometimes he will rack up that way to lure people into conversation. He loves to talk to people. He feels that fundamentally there's nothing wrong with his setup other than others who treat climbing like religion will blanch at it.

This guy has climbed lots of stuff. Lots of it. He knows Leuben well knew him and many others of note. Can you say that you have swung axes with Will Gadd? He did. He's either lying or he's got a fun take on life. He seemed to knew his stuff well.

:]

One thing I DON'T do is use my sport draws for trad climbing. All of the bolt end biners have burs in the metal from falling all the time. I don't want those biners on my cam slings, shoulder slings, or my rope. Some people probably say it's overkill but that's just my way.

To the OP - sounds like you would have been a sucker for snake-oil salesmen back in the day. Did this guy have a glint in his eye that seemed irresistable? His system obviously sucks. Don't listen to the rest of us - even he told you he just does it just for yuks. But nevertheless, you like it.
GO

As long as we have another thread about how to rack gear, maybe I can get some opinions.

I've always racked w/ one cam per biner, 2 biners per set of nuts, and 2 per tricams. My standard rack consists of doubles from BD.3 - 2, each matched to metolius of a comparable size and a single #3 BD. For draws I carry about 12- 60cm and 3 - 120cm dyneema style draws, which is adequate for my areas in CO and for setting up belays. This made my harness pretty full, but I never thought of changing till I saw someone rack 2 cams per biner.

1st thought was the potential for dropping 2 cams, but I tried it and it made racking so more efficient. My harness was clean, lighter and it also gave me a bunch of biners back.

So what are the general thoughts on this? I though about offsetting the sizes clipped together to avoid dropping 2 of the same cams, but that seems too confusing. I know it's not reinventing the wheel, but I was just curious what experiences others have had.

As long as we have another thread about how to rack gear, maybe I can get some opinions.

I've always racked w/ one cam per biner, 2 biners per set of nuts, and 2 per tricams. My standard rack consists of doubles from BD.3 - 2, each matched to metolius of a comparable size and a single #3 BD. For draws I carry about 12- 60cm and 3 - 120cm dyneema style draws, which is adequate for my areas in CO and for setting up belays. This made my harness pretty full, but I never thought of changing till I saw someone rack 2 cams per biner.

1st thought was the potential for dropping 2 cams, but I tried it and it made racking so more efficient. My harness was clean, lighter and it also gave me a bunch of biners back.

So what are the general thoughts on this? I though about offsetting the sizes clipped together to avoid dropping 2 of the same cams, but that seems too confusing. I know it's not reinventing the wheel, but I was just curious what experiences others have had.

Mainly because and I'll confess I was seriously interested in the technical reasons why it would make so many of you blanch.

How about the fact that his rack is all full of dogbones. When I'm carrying a larger rack, it already takes up enough space and is bulky. If I added a dogbone for every other piece, it would be ridiculous. Maybe if you always carry a slim rack of 10 pieces, this is okay, but for me, forget it.

What I really didn't like was that it just wasn't as clean. It's so much easier to rack the way everyone else does.... To me there was a lot of weight off the gear sling with a full draw on it then extending out to the rope. It was in essence a full QD in the system that could be eliminated

Next, there's the fact that of all the extension options (no extension, extend with a tripled sling, extend with a full length sling, extend with a long sling, extend with a sport draw), the last one is the one I'd choose the least.

I only had about a dozen times out of 100's of placements where a QD would have been fine.

there's the fact that, even if you *did* want a dogbone on your gear (which I never want), half the time you'd have to add one, because you have two pieces per draw. So when you place the first one, you always need to grab a draw from somewhere else.

I climbed about ten feet up a crack and tied off then I placed a cam, went 8 more feet and placed a tri-cam and about 6 feet I ran out of good crack and had to place a 10 stopper. I clipped the stopper with a 12" sling. The placement was bomber and I knew I could have clipped it with rebar and it wouldn't have gone anywhere. Both the tri-cam and cam were clipped with a standard length QD and the cam with an extended length QD. I then moved above the pieces and did all sorts of stuff to the rope. Nothing happened. No "struck by lightning" and no "URGNADIE" and no creep, crawl, walk in the line. So I went up higher and placed another stopper that was not "bomber" it could have been dislodged maybe. I did the same exercise and had the same results. So I went off to the far right to cause some serious rope drag. I hauled up tons of rope through the system (I was TR on another rope doing the Silent Partner thing.) I went down and checked each placement and didn't see anything to make me tremble in terror and fear. I did not fall on any of it though. I probably ought to have to make the test thorough.

Yeah that's kinda what I figured...just wondering if there were any " I dropped two #2's and died" stories...

It's just so much nicer not to have the clusterf*ck on my harness!!

Now I'll drop my secret. He explained that sometimes he will rack up that way to lure people into conversation. He loves to talk to people. He feels that fundamentally there's nothing wrong with his setup other than others who treat climbing like religion will blanch at it. I'm a troll.

OMG... is that... an ALBUM?

Where ever did you find that, a museum?

DMT

OMG... is that... an ALBUM?

Where ever did you find that, a museum?

DMT

On the shelf, next to my Turntable.

qwert

Exactly what hafilax said above ^^^

My racking system has little to do with avoiding dropping gear, and more to do with getting the piece I need as quickly as possible, independent of the body position I'm in, and then being able to move on.


What's your rack look like? If you're carrying more than eight cams, some amount of cluster-fuckage is inevitable. Sometimes light is right. Sometimes you need the whole nine yards. Only experience will help you know which is which, and even so, sometimes you guess wrong, which is always a bummer. Til then, better err on the side of too much gear.

GO

Is that a new piece of protection? Or like one of those hauling swivels?

There are worse things than playing with a nice rack!

LS, I definitely encourage you to play with your rack. I mean, it's probably not something you need to do every day. But as a means of discovering what you like and what you don't, it's invaluable. I mean, it can make the whole experience so much more satisfying when you can effortlessly go to the right place at the right time.

Sometimes it might even make the difference in whether you summit or plummet!

Um... what were we talking about again?

Cheers anyway!

G

Just because this guy did it differently doesn't make him wrong. He's been climbing trad for 30 years can you say that? I cannot.

And climbing for 30 years doesn't make someone right either. Time doesn't cure stupidity.

I'm not saying the guy is right or wrong, just criticizing the notion that 30 years of climbing automatically makes someone right about something.

Dave

Say the same thing about a firefighter or a jet pilot and most will call bullshit on you exactly as I am calling bullshit on the climbing point.

30 years of climb doesn't make one right automatically, no. That and four bucks gets you a cup of piss water at Starbucks.

I'll take 30 years experience over faceless internet warriors any day of the week, as a general principle.

All that said at 35 years in the game I am reckless, have damn near kilt myself more times than I can count, I tourinely flummox technical descriptions and I detest the physics of climbing. I do things that some would find technically unsound or even outright unsafe. I carry my gear the way I want to carry it, not according to some farking manual.

So you're right, 30 years of experience don't mean shit. Till your house is on fire anyway....

DMT

Now to this issue:


Good for you for checking it out for yourself. But placing and testing four pieces tells you damn close to nothing about what short draws do to gear placements. Keep doing that for a year, and let us know what happens. You will not like the results.

In short, there's a big difference between simply clinging to orthodoxy because it's familiar (what you accused everyone of) and calling someone out for claiming that a "better way" is, in fact, crap. Which is what what we were really doing.

I've changed many things in the way I climb over the years. And I'll happily continue to learn new and better things. No closed-minded old fogey here.

Lastly - I'm damn jealous of you getting out for a five day trip. Thank god I've got a big trip planned.

GO

Great, now I've got an image of Dingus in a kilt.