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jrathfon
Jan 25, 2010, 5:45 PM
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mmmmmmm
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shimanilami
Jan 25, 2010, 6:12 PM
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I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies.
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jrathfon
Jan 25, 2010, 7:10 PM
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yeah, and they have that same lack luster finish of the micronuts. nothing is prettier than the shine of actual brass!
i'm hoping that since they will be a domestic product, we might see a price break down from $16.50 each! ouch.
i'm also keeping my fingers crossed for BD large alloy offsets, those thing proved to be king in zion.
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ryanb
Jan 25, 2010, 7:16 PM
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shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies.
I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material.
How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two.
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granite_grrl
Jan 25, 2010, 7:30 PM
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ryanb wrote: shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies. I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material. How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two.
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evanwish
Jan 25, 2010, 10:47 PM
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aren't the regular BD micro nuts slightly offset/flared?
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healyje
Jan 25, 2010, 10:52 PM
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Basically the HBs in a more durable alloy. Won't get beat up as much as the brassies, but won't stick as well either - the usual soft vs. hard metal tradeoff.
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jrathfon
Jan 25, 2010, 10:55 PM
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not an offset flare in a transverse dimension (think when you look at the top of the head you will have an irregular trapezoid)
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evanwish
Jan 25, 2010, 11:55 PM
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but its still offset right?
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euroford
Jan 26, 2010, 12:04 AM
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hey now thats pretty cool. do want.
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2010, 12:14 AM
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jrathfon wrote: i'm hoping that since they will be a domestic product,
I wouldn't be so sure they are a domestic product. Sorta like made in chinalots.
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johnwesely
Jan 26, 2010, 1:13 AM
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caughtinside wrote: jrathfon wrote: i'm hoping that since they will be a domestic product, I wouldn't be so sure they are a domestic product. Sorta like made in chinalots.
China Fours
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newriverE
Jan 26, 2010, 1:35 AM
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it's true that they're cams are made in china, but it's also true that they are the only climbing company who owns the factory in china that they're made in. So, it's a BD plant that only makes BD stuff with BD's quality control, etc... Other companies cams are made in whichever plant won the bid and was faxed the specs. That's why the C3's and C4's cost ten dollars more per piece, plain and simple.
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johnwesely
Jan 26, 2010, 1:43 AM
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newriverE wrote: That's why the C3's and C4's cost ten dollars more per piece, plain and simple.
I somehow doubt it is that simple.
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2010, 1:44 AM
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newriverE wrote: it's true that they're cams are made in china, but it's also true that they are the only climbing company who owns the factory in china that they're made in. So, it's a BD plant that only makes BD stuff with BD's quality control, etc... Other companies cams are made in whichever plant won the bid and was faxed the specs. That's why the C3's and C4's cost ten dollars more per piece, plain and simple.
Other companies? Metolius, OP and Aliens are made in the USA. DMM's new cams will be made in wales, be lighter than camalots, and will cost $10 more.
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2010, 1:46 AM
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I'd also add that I think it's distasteful that a company which for years has sold itself as 'employee owned' went with the flow and moved manufacturing to china.
How many chinese nationals who work in that wonderful factory are owners of BD? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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jrathfon
Jan 26, 2010, 2:35 AM
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caughtinside wrote: jrathfon wrote: i'm hoping that since they will be a domestic product, I wouldn't be so sure they are a domestic product. Sorta like made in chinalots.
yeah, i was just shortening the statement, knew they were manufactured in china. i really meant a domestic company, that's not doing distribution into the US, with a middle man, etc, etc hopefully they are cheaper than dmm. $15 is still cheaper than $16.50, still pricey though.
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the_climber
Jan 27, 2010, 4:59 PM
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shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies.
Does that surprise anyone? Take a good look at some of the other recent BD gear... the Cyborg crampon for example, looks a lot like the Grivel G14 now doesn't it.
BD was more innovative 20 years ago. Don't get me wrong, they make some great stuff...
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dlintz
Jan 27, 2010, 5:16 PM
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jrathfon wrote: ...i'm also keeping my fingers crossed for BD large alloy offsets, those thing proved to be king in zion.
What's wrong with DMM alloy offsets? They're pretty sweet and would likely be cheaper than a comparable BD version.
Off topic: Why is BD's site so effin' slow?!! It confuses and infuriates me!!
d.
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cracklover
Jan 27, 2010, 5:20 PM
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The best thing about them is that I expect REI will probably carry them, so I can get some for "free" with my dividend this year. Yay!
GO
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vegastradguy
Jan 27, 2010, 10:55 PM
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more info to come on these in the write-up, glad another picture was found, though- BD's stupid white display walls and the Salt Palaces stupid lighting makes it damn impossible to get a decent shot without a DSLR, which i cant afford.
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mrtristan
Jan 29, 2010, 4:28 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: ryanb wrote: shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies. I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material. How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two. It doesn't sound like they have a real edge over the DMM offsets, though availability in stores might make the difference.
I don't understand why people are disappointed that they're very similar to the HB/DMM Brass nuts!? Those are GREAT nuts! How do you improve on something so good? Making it cheaper sure would be one way...
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granite_grrl
Jan 29, 2010, 5:46 PM
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mrtristan wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ryanb wrote: shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies. I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material. How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two. It doesn't sound like they have a real edge over the DMM offsets, though availability in stores might make the difference. I don't understand why people are disappointed that they're very similar to the HB/DMM Brass nuts!? Those are GREAT nuts! How do you improve on something so good? Making it cheaper sure would be one way...
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mrtristan
Jan 29, 2010, 6:02 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: mrtristan wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ryanb wrote: shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies. I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material. How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two. It doesn't sound like they have a real edge over the DMM offsets, though availability in stores might make the difference. I don't understand why people are disappointed that they're very similar to the HB/DMM Brass nuts!? Those are GREAT nuts! How do you improve on something so good? Making it cheaper sure would be one way... But why should we be excited if they aren't really different (price, shape, etc) than something already on the market?
Competition in the market can do nothing but benefit us as consumers. As someone else stated, they're a slightly different shape and different alloy. I don't think these differences are big enough to be revolutionary, but maybe these WILL be cheaper than the DMMS? Or maybe it will cause the DMM versions to be cheaper? Or maybe the changes BD made really ARE revolutionary? Who knows, since none of us have tried them.
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cracklover
Jan 29, 2010, 6:12 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: mrtristan wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ryanb wrote: shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies. I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material. How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two. It doesn't sound like they have a real edge over the DMM offsets, though availability in stores might make the difference. I don't understand why people are disappointed that they're very similar to the HB/DMM Brass nuts!? Those are GREAT nuts! How do you improve on something so good? Making it cheaper sure would be one way... But why should we be excited if they aren't really different (price, shape, etc) than something already on the market?
cracklover wrote: The best thing about them is that I expect REI will probably carry them, so I can get some for "free" with my dividend this year. Yay! GO
GO
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granite_grrl
Jan 29, 2010, 8:19 PM
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cracklover wrote: granite_grrl wrote: mrtristan wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ryanb wrote: shimanilami wrote: I'm a bit disappointed. From what I can tell, they're nothing but copies of the HB/DMM brassies. I believe the angle of flare is actually one degree less then the HB's and I think they are made of BD's harder silicon/bronze material. How these differences play out in the field remains to be seen but, considering black diamonds micros are 15 bucks a pop I doubt the price difference will be much more then a buck or two. It doesn't sound like they have a real edge over the DMM offsets, though availability in stores might make the difference. I don't understand why people are disappointed that they're very similar to the HB/DMM Brass nuts!? Those are GREAT nuts! How do you improve on something so good? Making it cheaper sure would be one way... But why should we be excited if they aren't really different (price, shape, etc) than something already on the market? cracklover wrote: The best thing about them is that I expect REI will probably carry them, so I can get some for "free" with my dividend this year. Yay! GO GO
Not that it really matters, I bought myself a bunch of the DMM ones down at the Gunks last fall.
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rightarmbad
Jan 30, 2010, 8:11 AM
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I know a few older climbers that find the HB angles a little too much and file their own from various others.
Maybe BD have found a better shape?
I can think of a few placements when a slightly harder than HB brass would have been a benefit as well.
Sounds to me like they may have actually improved on the originals, dare I say innovation, as opposed to DMM just recreating the originals?
I already have a double set of the very original HB so I'm not knocking them, I love em, but will certainly consider looking at a set of these.
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mattm
Jan 30, 2010, 10:06 PM
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Anyone know if the cable on the loop end has a "free running side"? The DMM swedge only captures one side so they won't kink nearly as much. If the BDs cable is a fixed lower loop, the DMM has the win still.
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Bolter
May 7, 2010, 6:17 PM
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Where are they made?? China???
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mattm
May 7, 2010, 6:37 PM
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Bolter wrote: Where are they made?? China???
No idea - and just so this stays on topic:
BD OWNS and OPERATES their China facility. It's not outsourced, and they didn't reduce employees in SLC (they moved them to more complicated projects)
Have to see how they look - I'm a DMM guy for pro other than Camalots myself
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coldfinger
May 8, 2010, 4:39 AM
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johnwesely wrote: newriverE wrote: That's why the C3's and C4's cost ten dollars more per piece, plain and simple. I somehow doubt it is that simple.
Yeah it's a least $5 per chinalot for all the gear forum trolling.
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scuclimber
May 8, 2010, 6:45 AM
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Just saw VTG's OR show blog post from January that says they'll be available in the fall. Bummer. I want to test the bigger ones in the next few months.
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Bolter
May 8, 2010, 8:40 AM
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So do chinese people work in this factory?
So do supplies they use come from other chinese companies?
Does the power this factory runs on come from china?
So what is the percentage of this factory AMERICAN?
Made in China!!
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vegastradguy
May 10, 2010, 5:27 AM
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Bolter wrote: So do chinese people work in this factory? So do supplies they use come from other chinese companies? Does the power this factory runs on come from china? So what is the percentage of this factory AMERICAN? Made in China!!
well, unlike most factories in china that are chinese owned and manufacture goods on contract, BD's factory is AMERICAN owned and operated. it employs Chinese workers, of course, but management is (or was at least when the factory opened) from BD in SLC.
it is an ISO 9001 facility that builds to the same standards and specs that BD has always built to.
people need to get off the BD in China thing. its not that big of a deal. i cant think of a single American climbing company that manufactures all of its hardware stateside- most european companies outsource some or all of their hardware and rope manufacturing as well. Alot of our product comes from Asia these days- and its not just shoes.
all of that said, if i had to guess, i would say that the offsets will be made stateside for at least a year or two while they refine the product and manufacturing process.
(come to think of it, the only company i can think of offhand that manufactures all of its own hardware is DMM Wales- there might be another here or there, but all the other big ones outsource at least some of their hardware)
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