- When fitting shoes, the tighter the better. But hey, it keeps those sweet deals coming on EBay.

- Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite.

- Expensive cams are safer than the cheap ones. Usually something along the lines of, "You don't want to look down that long run-out and see a $29 unit down there." Hey buddy, I got a $200 cam to sell ya.

- Never clip metal-to-metal. Pitons and bolt hangers = instant flying biner shards.

- Never take rope in when catching a leader fall. Foot, meet ledge.

- Toproping on static rope will get you injured. A classic case of, "No, I haven't actually done it. I just know it's a no-no."

- Place Tricams and large SLCDs with the rails or wider lobes on the bottom. Like tipping over is even possible!

AGREED

About the tight shoes comment
everyone online said to get the five ten anasazi moccasyms 1 to 1 1/2 smaller than my street shoe. I ended up having to send mine back for a replacement of one size bigger than my street shoe.

For example, top-roping on a static rope may not get you killed, but isn't necessarily a good idea--unless the route being top-roped is so high that the stretch from a normal dynamic rope could result in the climber decking near the start of the climb.

Every gym I've climbed in uses static ropes for TR routes. Technically, they're "low-stretch" ropes, but they're what climbers typically refer to as "static ropes."

Jay

Check any of the threads regarding Rock Empire or KROK (those Ukrainian cams on Ebay). It's rare to see anyone not say it.

Sounds unnecessarily painful to me. Why? Do they just last longer?

Curt

You are right about the Kroks, but are people saying that about the REs too. I am pretty sure most people say they are not a nice cam but not that they are unsafe.

All brand new cams are completely safe. RE cams go through the same rating tests as Friends, Camelots, Master cams, etc. and pass just fine. the only difference is durability, a camelot may last for many years if you take care of it, whereas an RE cam may last a much shorter time period depending on use

Yes, they last longer. I don't think it's all that painful. They stretch enough for a top rope fall. I wouldn't want to take a lead fall on one, though.

Jay

Yes, they last longer. I don't think it's all that painful. They stretch enough for a top rope fall. I wouldn't want to take a lead fall on one, though.

Jay

All brand new cams are completely safe. RE cams go through the same rating tests as Friends, Camelots, Master cams, etc. and pass just fine. the only difference is durability, a camelot may last for many years if you take care of it, whereas an RE cam may last a much shorter time period depending on use

Yes, they last longer. I don't think it's all that painful. They stretch enough for a top rope fall. I wouldn't want to take a lead fall on one, though.

Jay

Not sure where people are getting this notion that a cheap cam is as durable. Hell no they are not.

I've fallen every bad way on Aliens, Camalots, and Friends you can imagine. I've only one rendered a blue alien unusable. In fact, it'd be fine for $8 if CCH was still in business.

I've had a lot of RE Pulsar cams. They didn't last as long. One of them I broke the aluminum keeper bar in a single fall. This rendered it useless but yes, it was still just as strong. The other ones stopped pulling smoothly once the cable got even the tiniest bit of tweak. 2 days of dirt also made them nearly impossible to use.

This is side by side to Camalots and Friends and Aliens that got cleaned up once every couple years and withstood way more abuse.

Certification strength is not any sort of guarantee that you're buying good gear. Just that your gear won't break when you fall on it.

The ones that are UIAA certified are.

It almost goes without saying that some of what appears here, and on other climbing sites is 100% BS. Here's my list of the biggest turds.

In no particular order...

- When fitting shoes, the tighter the better. But hey, it keeps those sweet deals coming on EBay.

- Never take rope in when catching a leader fall. Foot, meet ledge.

- Nylon loses 5% of its strength each year due solely to age. Quick, someone alert the rope manufacturers!

- Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite.

- Fall Factor determines the peak load on gear, the climber, and belayer. Yup, that's it; nothing else matters.

- Toproping on static rope will get you injured. A classic case of, "No, I haven't actually done it. I just know it's a no-no."

- Expensive cams are safer than the cheap ones. Usually something along the lines of, "You don't want to look down that long run-out and see a $29 unit down there." Hey buddy, I got a $200 cam to sell ya.

- Home-made or modified gear will kill you. Riiight. There are no more improvements possible. Ever.

- Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH...

- TR self-belay with a toothed cam ascender will shred the rope. (see TR on static rope.)

- Place Tricams and large SLCDs with the rails or wider lobes on the bottom. Like tipping over is even possible!

- Never clip metal-to-metal. Pitons and bolt hangers = instant flying biner shards.

It almost goes without saying that some of what appears here, and on other climbing sites is 100% BS. Here's my list of the biggest turds.

In no particular order...

- When fitting shoes, the tighter the better. But hey, it keeps those sweet deals coming on EBay.

- Never take rope in when catching a leader fall. Foot, meet ledge.

- Nylon loses 5% of its strength each year due solely to age. Quick, someone alert the rope manufacturers!

- Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite.

- Fall Factor determines the peak load on gear, the climber, and belayer. Yup, that's it; nothing else matters.

- Toproping on static rope will get you injured. A classic case of, "No, I haven't actually done it. I just know it's a no-no."

- Expensive cams are safer than the cheap ones. Usually something along the lines of, "You don't want to look down that long run-out and see a $29 unit down there." Hey buddy, I got a $200 cam to sell ya.

- Home-made or modified gear will kill you. Riiight. There are no more improvements possible. Ever.

- Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH...

- TR self-belay with a toothed cam ascender will shred the rope. (see TR on static rope.)

- Place Tricams and large SLCDs with the rails or wider lobes on the bottom. Like tipping over is even possible!

- Never clip metal-to-metal. Pitons and bolt hangers = instant flying biner shards.

I always heard that Metal on Metal was really bad. Then I saw Anthrax open for Metallica, and it was fucking awesome!

All brand new cams are completely safe.

How's that? If they're UIAA Certified they've been tested by a third party testing facility per the UIAA125/CE12275 specification, so by definition they all are tested to the same standard. How much they exceed the standard is an altogether different question...

How's that? If they're UIAA Certified they've been tested by a third party testing facility per the UIAA125/CE12275 specification, so by definition they all are tested to the same standard. How much they exceed the standard is an altogether different question...

Does climbing 5.13 mean that you might have more mileage on the rock than the 5.10 or 5.11 climber?

Not to refute your point but so often the sound, reasonable, and seasoned comments are ignored by some loudmouth who's been climbing for 2 years. How am I (or others) supposed to react? There were a lot of things I thought I was right about 2 years in that I was completely wrong about.

The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be. Then again, experience gets conflated with years climbing and the word experience loses meaning.

I think that the greatest internet climbing myth/falsehood is that unless you can climb 5.12 or 5.13 or V10 or whatever, then you aren't entitled to have an opinion regarding certain subjects.

"You only climb 5.11. Come back when you're climbing 5.13 and then you can comment, noob"

I'm never going to climb 5.13 but, after 20+ years of climbing, I feel I can make a comment on most climbing related subjects.

Even if I had only been climbing 20 days, I am still allowed to comment on a subject, without some grade obsessed sycophant telling me to shut up, because I don't crank V10 and I don't know Tommy or Joe or Bill or whoever. It's called FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

This seems to be a particularly American attitude and it is particularly rife on this site. I don't really see it on forums in the UK or here, in Australia.

What amazes me is, these ego-stroking sycophants don't even realise how dumb they are making themselves sound. You don't sound hard and smart. You sound like 'A' grade butt kissers.

Climbing 5.13 does not mean you are smarter, wiser or more able to make a comment. It just means you can climb 5.13.

And that you probably spend too much time climbing plastic.

I still reserve the right to call anyone a dumbass, anytime and anywhere. Heh heh.

Apparently, knowledge about some Gear4Rocks is Alien to you.

Jay

I didn't say you didn't have the right to call someone a dumbass. I said you don't have the right to tell that dumbass that they don't have the right to prove they are a dumbass by making a dumbass comment because you are either a harder climber or a more experienced climber.

dumbass

2 ratings, 3 stars: 1 user got it and 1 didn't.

Jay

The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be.

All brand new cams are completely safe.

I think that the greatest internet climbing myth/falsehood is that unless you can climb 5.12 or 5.13 or V10 or whatever, then you aren't entitled to have an opinion regarding certain subjects.

"You only climb 5.11. Come back when you're climbing 5.13 and then you can comment, noob"

I'm never going to climb 5.13 but, after 20+ years of climbing, I feel I can make a comment on most climbing related subjects.

Even if I had only been climbing 20 days, I am still allowed to comment on a subject, without some grade obsessed sycophant telling me to shut up, because I don't crank V10 and I don't know Tommy or Joe or Bill or whoever. It's called FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

This seems to be a particularly American attitude and it is particularly rife on this site. I don't really see it on forums in the UK or here, in Australia.

What amazes me is, these ego-stroking sycophants don't even realise how dumb they are making themselves sound. You don't sound hard and smart. You sound like 'A' grade butt kissers.

Climbing 5.13 does not mean you are smarter, wiser or more able to make a comment. It just means you can climb 5.13.

And that you probably spend too much time climbing plastic.

I think that the greatest internet climbing myth/falsehood is that unless you can climb 5.12 or 5.13 or V10 or whatever, then you aren't entitled to have an opinion regarding certain subjects.

Maybe I've been climbing 40+ years and have an IQ of 89. Do you really want to trust just me because of my experience?

I think that intelligence is more important than ratings and years on the job. Maybe we need to start using the words "wise" and "wisdom" to describe that desirable trait that makes one worthy to give advice.

Dave

Does climbing 5.13 mean that you might have more mileage on the rock than the 5.10 or 5.11 climber?

Not to refute your point but so often the sound, reasonable, and seasoned comments are ignored by some loudmouth who's been climbing for 2 years. How am I (or others) supposed to react? There were a lot of things I thought I was right about 2 years in that I was completely wrong about.

The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be. Then again, experience gets conflated with years climbing and the word experience loses meaning.

i feel this whole wisdom/intelligence/experience/difficulty thing boils down to a combination of these parts and an explicit understanding of how one goes about defining and relating them.

the intelligent climber probably learns very quickly. therefore, they may be knowledgeable while lacking a large amount of experience.

the experienced climber may or may not climb hard, but they have almost certainly seen some things that the rest of us can learn from.

the climber who can crank the 5.whatever or the Vridiculous is not necessarily experienced, intelligent, or wise.

finally, the wise climber is probably just keeping their mouth shut.

point is, the validity of one's statement about a particular topic could depend on difficulty, experience, or intelligence, none of which are necessarily related (though people assume they are).

also, i find the notion that experience can be measured in number of years climbing to be bogus. your average weekend warrior may get out one or two weekends a month, which translates to 25ish climbing days per year. In one summer it's possible to road trip for a few months and accrue the equivalent of "two years" (or more) worth of experience. not to mention, climbers tend to have rather inflated ideas about the number of days they actually climb.

a similar argument applies to experience and difficulty.

Great comment and well put.

2 ratings, 3 stars: 1 user got it and 1 didn't.

Jay

Gym days only count as 1/17th of a real day of climbing,

DMT

Unless both were ambivalent about it.

Last longer, and cheaper price, usually.

I've seen guides using them outdoors with large groups. New belayers + new climbers + 60' toprope route = potential injury on a dynamic rope if the climber falls before they get 10 feet off the ground.

Does climbing 5.13 mean that you might have more mileage on the rock than the 5.10 or 5.11 climber?

Not to refute your point but so often the sound, reasonable, and seasoned comments are ignored by some loudmouth who's been climbing for 2 years. How am I (or others) supposed to react? There were a lot of things I thought I was right about 2 years in that I was completely wrong about.

The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be. Then again, experience gets conflated with years climbing and the word experience loses meaning.

The issue lies in someone who has climbed 20 years but their experience level never rises past someone who has 1 year of experience. Years and grades don't denote experience but the quality of the experience. I hate to say this (since this is a vast generalization) but it often occurs when someone doesn't step outside of their comfort zone, so they never improve. (but hey I'm being elitist again).

Come here Dingus. Let me tell you something. FUCK... the noobs.

How bizarre! Are you guys sure about that? I've climbed in about a dozen gyms, and only one of them used static ropes. Somehow the gyms y'all have climbed in are almost opposite to mine?

Most gyms I've been in use what's marketed as "gym rope", which is a rope with a high fraction of the weight in the sheath (so it lasts longer). These lower stretch gym ropes are *very* different from true static ropes.

Static ropes have a stretch of less than 6% at 10% of their MBS, and often have as little as 1 or 2% stretch if tested in similar conditions to the standard "static" test for dynamic ropes. They may even have low stretch material like polyester in place of some or all of the nylon.

Gym ropes, on the other hand, are essentially standard dynamic climbing ropes, but with a beefy sheath.

Typical gym rope: http://www.sterlingrope.com/...246835/GR/_/Rock_Gym

Typical static rope: http://shop.pmirope.com/...;productMasterID=677

GO

- Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH...

You're seriously calling that a myth?


josh

I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical.

josh

I'm saying that there is alot of information out there, on both sides of the issue.
Some very reliable sources say that gasoline(and the other chemicals mentioned) have no negative effect on Nylon.
Some very reliable sources say the exact opposite.

Some sources say that Nylon is extremely resistant to UV degradation! We've all seen how that works out.

So what I'm saying is....if multiple different and reliable sources give completely opposing answers, how can it be called a myth?

I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical.

josh

What about water?

Don't forget cat piss. Why do cats love to pee on ropes anyway?

I'm saying that there is alot of information out there, on both sides of the issue.
Some very reliable sources say that gasoline(and the other chemicals mentioned) have no negative effect on Nylon.
Some very reliable sources say the exact opposite.

Some sources say that Nylon is extremely resistant to UV degradation! We've all seen how that works out.

So what I'm saying is....if multiple different and reliable sources give completely opposing answers, how can it be called a myth?

I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical.

josh

Are you saying you believe gasoline damages nylon?

No this one's actually real! Believe it or not, someone did a study and included cat pee! No doubt they meant it to be funny, but it really did have an impact on the force that could be held.

GO

It sure does when it's lit.

- Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite.

So just yesterday I had a client drop a quick draw 300 feet onto a boulder field. You're saying that I should just mix it right back in with my other draws? I think not.

50 or 100 feet, sure... or if it landed in the dirt of bushes, then I'd use it again. It depends on the situation.

Don't forget cat piss. Why do cats love to pee on ropes anyway?

So just yesterday I had a client drop a quick draw 300 feet onto a boulder field. You're saying that I should just mix it right back in with my other draws? I think not.

50 or 100 feet, sure... or if it landed in the dirt of bushes, then I'd use it again. It depends on the situation.

i'm no chemical engineer, but -

nylon 6,6 is repeating units of hexanedioic acid and hexamethyldiamine. .........

So just yesterday I had a client drop a quick draw 300 feet onto a boulder field. You're saying that I should just mix it right back in with my other draws? I think not.

50 or 100 feet, sure...

Hmmm, 100 feet vs. 300 feet. An interesting distinction you make there. Are you sure that the final velocity of a quick draw dropped 300 feet is greater than one dropped 100 feet?

Jay

It seems like these are all such old myths. Maybe a new myth. Something like

"The reason two biners are set opposite AND opposed in a top rope anchor is to ensure that the static charge in them built up during lowering flows in opposite directions negating the charge thereby avoiding a dangerous spark."

OK if I follow this then gasoline is OK but additives may be trouble.]

Would it be OK to use white gas (fuel for Coleman cooking stoves) to wash rope and slings? Gas is great degreaser and should really clean the rope up nicely, and I don't think white gas has any additives.

Similarly, would it be OK to dry clean rope? Seems like dry cleaning is for sensitive fabrics and so it wouldn't hurt the rope.

Thx.

Marmalade. Don't forget marmalade.

DMT

OK if I follow this then gasoline is OK but additives may be trouble.]

Would it be OK to use white gas (fuel for Coleman cooking stoves) to wash rope and slings? Gas is great degreaser and should really clean the rope up nicely, and I don't think white gas has any additives.

Similarly, would it be OK to dry clean rope? Seems like dry cleaning is for sensitive fabrics and so it wouldn't hurt the rope.

Thx.

Who washes their rope? Climb on it till it's done, then buy a new one.

Kids these days.

OK, thanks for the info.
I'm guessing the white gas may totally remove dry coatings as well, so that may be another reason not to do it.
I will stick with my rope brush and bathtub, I suppose, but I'm not 100% happy with the results.

But lately a few raps in the middle of a heavy downpour seem to wring a lot of dirt out of my rope.

It seems like these are all such old myths. Maybe a new myth. Something like

"The reason two biners are set opposite AND opposed in a top rope anchor is to ensure that the static charge in them built up during lowering flows in opposite directions negating the charge thereby avoiding a dangerous spark."

Aah, and THAT'S why you shold never soak your rope in gas. Goddit!

Exactly. All that other talk elsewhere about minor components is off the mark. It's the real danger of biner static discharge ignition (BSDI) that you should pay attention to.