Yep, luckily i never used a gri gri for lead belaying so i didn't have to break any habits. but the Cinch is much more intuitive i think and easier to use. not to mention it is about half the size to hold and lighter.

hell i use it for trad lead and bringing up 2nd now and my reverso is pretty much demoted to rap only

Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you.

It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad.

Jus' sayin'

... switched her over to a GriGri after about a month of belaying me with an ATC.

I got the Cinch and quickly learned how to work it and taught my girlfriend how to work it.

Care to elaborate?

I probably had to spend less time teaching her how to use a Cinch than I did a GriGri. And yes, I'm proficient with both.

The other reason is that gri-gri is a more prevalent device, many people have not tried Cinch and are not comfortable with someone belaying them on the device they are not familiar with. And I do like to have the extra level of safety where my climbing partner can tell at a glance whether my device is threaded/loaded correctly, which is more likely if the device I am using is the device my climber is familiar with.

Sure.

Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics.

I don't like that.

For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you.

I don't like that either.

I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user.

And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods.

And I know Jake can...

...something I almost always do to my belayer before I leave the ground. I try and snatch some rope when they aren't looking before I start climbing to make sure I catch them off guard and check if everything is in order.

If you did that to me, I'd return the favor ...

... some point after your first clip.

FWIW, I know how to Munter (and Monster Munter for that matter) and know how to use a biner brake to rap.

Sure.

Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics.

I don't like that.

For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you.

I don't like that either.

I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user.

And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods.

And I know Jake can...

I like the cinch. I bought one because my wife wanted an auto locking device to belay me while I lead in the gym. However, I recently lead a route outside (my first lead outside). It worked well going up. Then on the descent there was a problem. The rope began twisting badly and jammed the device. She got me down but it was pretty difficult. I don't know if it was the device or the rope which has been used for multiple climbs outside and inside. As of right now I am kind of unsure about the cinch.

sounds like you had your rope through the anchor wrong and the rope twisted from that. the Cinch is a straight line from brake to climber so there is no way of the rope twisting ( unlike the gri gri which you can curve the rope over it many different ways)

I've found the cinch will work out the kinks in a funky rope pretty quickly, which can give it a bad rep for twisting the rope. In reality the straight tight spot the rope goes through when lowering is just concentrating the kinks in that end of the rope more than using an ATC would.

I think if you are experienced enough to have known and used these techniques enough to be comfortable with them, then I firmly believe that you would prefer another device than the Cinch.

Unless you started in a gym, and cannot give up your gym roots; they do not translate to the great outdoors...

Loran I bring both Cinch and Reverso. the extra weight of the reverso for rapping and using in certain spots is negligible and i'm ok with that. Cinch is easier to release to give a 2nd slack than a reverso.

I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing.

«Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892)
and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath).
The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing
on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard
(25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second.
It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing»

Cheers,
Rob.calm

you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:

1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock
2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock
3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key
4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.
Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.
5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..

Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods.

if you're using a grigri or cinch because you cant stay focused on belaying, then you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.

if you're using the device because you cannot hold a fall and need the device to do it for you, then again, you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.

But why not use two hands... i don't get why you would limit yourself just cuz it is "proper technique" just like saying I only do missionary style cuz it's proper...

All it takes is a quick yank with either device to tell if it's loaded correctly, something I almost always do to my belayer before I leave the ground. I try and snatch some rope when they aren't looking before I start climbing to make sure I catch them off guard and check if everything is in order.

Loran I bring both Cinch and Reverso. the extra weight of the reverso for rapping and using in certain spots is negligible and i'm ok with that. Cinch is easier to release to give a 2nd slack than a reverso.

They also say they can't be used on ropes smaller than 9.7 which is false .. check out sharma taking huge whips on 9.1 ropes on Jumbo for example.

...my friends use my 9.5 rope all the time with no issues.

you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:

1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock

2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock

3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key

4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.

Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.

5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..

Sure.

Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics.

I don't like that.

For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you.

I don't like that either.

I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user.

And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods.

And I know Jake can...

A single example does not prove a point. My friend, Jack, decked when his 9.4 slid through the grigri, even though his belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the rope.


Well, that's better than N=1, but it still fails to prove the point.

Jay

you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons:

1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock
2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock
3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key
4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it.
Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch.
5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool..

Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods.

Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you.

A year or two ago i only used tube style but as ive done more and more r rated and difficult trad lines ive moved to the added security of a locking device.

The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back.

The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back.

if you're using a grigri or cinch because you cant stay focused on belaying, then you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.

if you're using the device because you cannot hold a fall and need the device to do it for you, then again, you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.

Hmm. i find that lowering folks you, doc and jay's size to be less than half open. folks my size i need to open it more.

as for the pointy handle i put 3 fingers on the handle and my thumb on the pivot and it allows for adjusting how fast it goes through.

i will concede that lowering takes alot more practice than a gri gri since you can't just crank it wide open and treat it like an ATC.. Once you work it out though it's not much different.

Curious, what technique are using to lower? If you are using the technique Malcolm recommends in his instructional video where you come over the top with your left hand, apply your thumb to the pivot point of the lever and pull on the lever, your palm shouldn't be used. If you are using your palm in the way I am thinking, the difficulty in lowering i think is due to the way the cinch rotates if the pivot point isn't pressed against, resulting in inefficient transfer of torque to the lever requiring significantly more palm force to lower.

perhaps your wrists are just the wekesauze and you should just give up

Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you.

It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad.

Jus' sayin'

Sure.

Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics.

I don't like that.

For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you.

I don't like that either.

I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user.

And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods.

And I know Jake can...

"Hi, I've been doing the same thing for 30 years and it works so why change. What's a computer?"

I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing.

«Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892)
and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath).
The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing
on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard
(25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second.
It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing»

Cheers,
Rob.calm

also to get back to gabe and edges comment about soft catching.. the way i belay with a cinch it would be just as easy to feed out a bit of slack as it would with an ATC.

I don't have a lot of experience on sketchy gear so perhaps someone will have to fill in how else you're supposed to soften things up in the microseconds you have to react in a short fall.

I think you have a different definition of soft catch than I do.


The classic method with a tube device is to provide less force on the brake strand, allowing your hand to get pulled in a little. This requires practice. With a gri-gri or cinch, you jump at just the right moment. Again, this requires practice.

GO

On smaller diameter ropes, or when holding falls that generate extremely high loads (in excess of factor 1) the Cinch acts dynamically, reducing shock loads to the belay system.

People keep putting the Cinch in the same category as the GriGri when it comes to locking up. It is designed to be in between the GriGri and a tube device as far as max braking force.

However, despite what Mal says, if I'm going to do any solo leading, I'd rather use a Cinch than a modified grigri.

actually, you really dont want to do this. the cinch is probably the worst device out there for solo leading- its lack of a spring means the device is always in the locked position. the two times i've roped soloed something with the cinch, i desperately wished i had remembered my grigri and swore never to do it again. the cinch is a GREAT belay device, but a terrible rope solo lead device. (great TR solo device, though, if used with a croll).

well, the search continues then. it'd be nice if someone could finally make a product for this purpose (that could still be purchased, that is).

Would the croll be used in the "chest" harness position?

Most solo belay devices make use of a chest harness/sit harness to keep you upright in a fall.

I understand that, but what is a Croll?

Here's a quick link. I think we posted on top of one another.

http://www.amazon.com/...der-by/dp/B001UJGOYG

thanks.

not sure if it would need one or not, but I'm a bit leery of using anything with teeth like that. also, I haven't heard much of anyone using ascenders like that for self belay on lead. i've heard of people using them for TR, but not on lead.

anyway, I didn't mean for us to get off topic.