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gblauer
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Sep 16, 2010, 3:07 PM
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All, we are having our 4th annual Birdsboro climb and clean next week and I would like to assign some of the cleaners to actually cleaning the chalk off some of our well used classics.
Last year we tried wire and nylon brushes, they were completely ineffective.
Can anyone give me some guidance on how to get the chalk off the rock? SHould we use water and a scrub brush? We do have a generator, would it be wise to power wash?
Thoughts?
(This post was edited by gblauer on Sep 16, 2010, 5:36 PM)
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j_ung
Sep 16, 2010, 3:20 PM
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gblauer wrote: All, we are having our climb and clean next week and I would like to assign some of the cleaners to actually cleaning the chalk off some of our well used classics. Last year we tried wire and nylon brushes, they were completely ineffective. Can anyone give me some guidance on how to get the chalk off the rock? SHould we use water and a scrub brush? We do have a generator, would it be wise to power wash? Thoughts?
Power wash? If you can get a water source out there and up there, hell yeah.
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johnwesely
Sep 16, 2010, 4:44 PM
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I would be wary of anything that could take the texture off the rock. That includes power washers and wire brushes.
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edge
Sep 16, 2010, 4:55 PM
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I agree with the wire brushes being too risky in terms of possibly removing texture. Where is this? What kind of rock?
I believe that during the Lincoln Woods clean up days the old standby (because it works) is water and either a nylon or natural stiff bristle brush. Tooth brushes and denture brushes work great, as do toilet brushes for the larger holds.
The funny looks that you receive if you buy all three brushes at the same time/store is an added bonus.
Rinse afterwords with a low pressure stream of clean water, maybe from a squirt bottle.
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BoltWar
Sep 16, 2010, 5:21 PM
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SUPER SOAKER oh and a brush, boars hair.
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BoltWar
Sep 16, 2010, 5:29 PM
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use one of the other not so precise tips. A nozzle that fans more than shots a jet stream of water.
Also you can turn the Pressure washer to a lower Idle. If in fact it is a gasoline powered washer, but if its drawn of of electric well I doubt anything will bet buggered up do to the fact. It wont have enough pressure to hurt much, But may get the cake off the rock no doubt!
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gblauer
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Sep 16, 2010, 5:38 PM
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This is at birdsboro quarry. We do have access to a creek for water, but, I am not sure how feasible it will be to powerwash.
We can use buckets of water and nylon brushes, although last year we didn't have much luck with that technique. The area is very overhung so it doesn't get hit by the rain. The chalk is really caked on from many many years of climbing.
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redlude97
Sep 16, 2010, 5:56 PM
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Magnesium carbonate(chalk) dissolves relatively easy in acid, so using a weak acid like vinegar should help without damaging the rock. Just make sure you rinse thoroughly with water afterwards
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markc
Sep 16, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Have you considered something like a hudson sprayer? I've used a 2-gallon pump sprayer both at work and at home, and that seems a lot easier than dealing with buckets of water. You could go with the suggested vinegar solution, scrub, then rinse thoroughly.
Like others, I'd worry about wire brushes, too strong of a power-washing, etc.
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lucaskrajnik
Sep 16, 2010, 6:16 PM
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Post pics, however you do it!
It'll be cool to see
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brokesomeribs
Sep 17, 2010, 6:36 AM
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Gail, when is the Climb and Clean day? I'd like to come out and help if I'm free.
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gblauer
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Sep 17, 2010, 1:26 PM
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Many folks come and camp starting on the Friday the 24th. We will clean and clmib on Saturday the 25th and Sunday the 26th. We have a fund raising raffle and community dinner on Saturday night, at the Rustic Pavillion in the park. I hope you can join us!
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rgold
Sep 17, 2010, 2:54 PM
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My observations from a few clean-ups is that you can't completely get rid of chalk that has built up from continual use. Water and brushes will not work for sure. I don't know about power washers. A vinegar solution also does not work.
You can certainly make the rock cleaner than it was, but visible chalk stains are going to remain.
Make sure to work from the top down, because some of the chalk that does go into solution gets deposited lower down.
It is a lot of work and about as thankless as tasks can get. Worth it if it buys some good will with whoever manages the site, but almost pointless from a cleaning perspective. A few days or maybe a few hours after you clean up, it goes back to looking as bad as before.
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gblauer
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Sep 17, 2010, 3:12 PM
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No one cares about the aesthetic...it's more about trying to remove the the built up, caked on chalk. Not worth it?
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rgold
Sep 17, 2010, 4:07 PM
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The aesthetic is what matters to managers. But you are speaking of quarry, so perhaps aesthetics are moot.
If the issue is just getting rid of heavy build-up then water and brushes are partially effective.
It would be good to hear from some chemists about what might work, and about whether something happens when chalk and body oils from the hands mix that makes the deposits significantly less water-soluble and even abrasion-resistant.
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USnavy
Sep 17, 2010, 4:33 PM
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There is an acid that my local gym uses to clean holds that completely dissolves chalk. I am not sure what acid it is, I will ask. However all I know is every time the holds come off the wall, they go back on looking brand new.
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edge
Sep 17, 2010, 4:39 PM
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USnavy wrote: There is an acid that my local gym uses to clean holds that completely dissolves chalk. I am not sure what acid it is, I will ask. However all I know is every time the holds come off the wall, they go back on looking brand new.
That would be muriatic acid, and masons use it to dissolve dried mortar off the face of bricks. Using it on real rock indiscriminately would not be a good idea.
Yet another instance where gym techniques do not translate to real climbing.
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gmggg
Sep 17, 2010, 4:46 PM
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edge wrote: USnavy wrote: There is an acid that my local gym uses to clean holds that completely dissolves chalk. I am not sure what acid it is, I will ask. However all I know is every time the holds come off the wall, they go back on looking brand new. That would be muriatic acid, and masons use it to dissolve dried mortar off the face of bricks. Using it on real rock indiscriminately would not be a good idea. Yet another instance where gym techniques do not translate to real climbing.
+1 Hydrochloric acid in certain concentrations is used to dissolve rock.
What I might suggest (And what I use for plastic holds) is a biodegradable degreaser, I like Orange-Solve myself. It's a citric based degreaser and I have a hard time imagining that it would damage any rock type, but maybe someone with some concrete knowledge could weigh in on that.
If you decide to go with any sort of chemical cleaner I would recommend trying a small sample in an inconspicuous area to check for effectiveness/damage/discoloration or any other potential issues before the event so that you don't waste a bunch of money and time supplying the stuff at the event.
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edge
Sep 17, 2010, 5:08 PM
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gmggg wrote: What I might suggest (And what I use for plastic holds) is a biodegradable degreaser, I like Orange-Solve myself. It's a citric based degreaser and I have a hard time imagining that it would damage any rock type, but maybe someone with some concrete knowledge could weigh in on that.
We have used citrus based paint strippers at Lincoln Woods to remove graffiti* with good results. However you need to flush it with plenty of water, and I can't comment as to how it would react with caked on chalk. It showed no noticeable effect on the rock or it's texture.
*They don't make enough to remove all the graffiti at Lincoln Woods...
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hafilax
Sep 17, 2010, 5:30 PM
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edge wrote: USnavy wrote: There is an acid that my local gym uses to clean holds that completely dissolves chalk. I am not sure what acid it is, I will ask. However all I know is every time the holds come off the wall, they go back on looking brand new. That would be muriatic acid, and masons use it to dissolve dried mortar off the face of bricks. Using it on real rock indiscriminately would not be a good idea. Yet another instance where gym techniques do not translate to real climbing.
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dynosore
Sep 17, 2010, 5:36 PM
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Diluted muriatic acid (say 3-5%) should work well, just wear the right protective clothing and rinse the rock when done to get rid of the residual. Realistically, you're not going to dissolve even a small fraction of a mm of rock with a solution like this. The acid will preferentially attack the calcium carbonate over almost any rock type.
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xtrmecat
Sep 17, 2010, 5:40 PM
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Do not use any form of any acid, unless you do not mind contaminating every soft good that will come into contact with the ground for many months after. It will kill soft goods on first contact. When they don't hold, what keeps yer ass off the deck?
Burly Bob
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hafilax
Sep 17, 2010, 5:40 PM
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I'm not positive but I believe that the issue with caked on chalk is the oils from the hands and not the chalk itself. Removing the oils will require a degreaser which is alkaline vs an acid to remove the chalk which is pretty easy to get off.
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dynosore
Sep 17, 2010, 5:45 PM
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A 3% HCl solution has about the same pH as a can of coke. Relax. If someone spilled a 2 liter of coke on the ground, and you unwittingly set your slings there next weekend, do you seriously think you're in any danger?? I said rinse the rock when done. The ground will neutralize the rest. This reminds me of the sharpie middle mark fears. I took a sharpie and zeroed a piece of paper on an analytical balance out of curiosity one time. I then proceeded to add at least 10 times the ink that any sane person would use to mark the middle of their rope. The weight was about 0.01g, even counting for evaporative loss before I could weigh it. LOL if 0.01g of acetone compromises your 3600g rope, you've got a lot bigger problems.......
Point is, don't create fear where it's not necessary.
(This post was edited by dynosore on Sep 17, 2010, 5:46 PM)
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gmggg
Sep 17, 2010, 6:39 PM
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edge wrote: gmggg wrote: What I might suggest (And what I use for plastic holds) is a biodegradable degreaser, I like Orange-Solve myself. It's a citric based degreaser and I have a hard time imagining that it would damage any rock type, but maybe someone with some concrete knowledge could weigh in on that. We have used citrus based paint strippers at Lincoln Woods to remove graffiti* with good results. However you need to flush it with plenty of water, and I can't comment as to how it would react with caked on chalk. It showed no noticeable effect on the rock or it's texture. *They don't make enough to remove all the graffiti at Lincoln Woods...
As someone else noted you really want an alkaline for caked on chalk since it's more of an oil problem than anything else. Orange-Solve works really well for me with greasy urethane holds that have been outside for extended amounts of time with lots of caked chalk and road dust. I imagine it'd be pretty good on rock as well.
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xtrmecat
Sep 17, 2010, 6:43 PM
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Easy there big fella. We posted nearly the same time, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. Any acid would be too much really.
I was commenting to keep the guy from going down to the hardware store and buying a gallon of muratic and dosing the stone. Yes, that would create a dangerous and potentially disastrous scenario. Same thing as trying to use some old battery electolyte, " Yeah, that should do it,right Jeb?'
If 3% HCL solution is the same ph as coke, why not get in on a 2 liter special for $.99 and save us a few cents also. Feeds the insects at the same time.
Burly Bob
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blondgecko
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Sep 17, 2010, 10:11 PM
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dynosore wrote: Diluted muriatic acid (say 3-5%) should work well, just wear the right protective clothing and rinse the rock when done to get rid of the residual. Realistically, you're not going to dissolve even a small fraction of a mm of rock with a solution like this. The acid will preferentially attack the calcium carbonate over almost any rock type.
... Unless that rock is calcium carbonate (ie. limestone). And no, a 3-5% muriatic acid solution is not "about as acidic as a can of coke". Diluted from typical hardware stores concentrations, that's still around 0.5M, or below pH 1. That's overabout a thousand times more acidic than Coke (pH 3-4, iirc).
As to the original question, why not experiment with one of the more "creek safe" detergents?
(This post was edited by blondgecko on Sep 17, 2010, 10:52 PM)
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redlude97
Sep 17, 2010, 10:16 PM
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Why is everyone talking about calcium carbonate? Chalk is made from magnesium carbonate
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aspiringloser
Sep 17, 2010, 10:40 PM
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Castrol Superclean
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blondgecko
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Sep 17, 2010, 10:47 PM
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redlude97 wrote: Why is everyone talking about calcium carbonate? Chalk is made from magnesium carbonate
I know - but that didn't seem worth mentioning, since the chemistry is pretty much the same.
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gunkiemike
Sep 17, 2010, 11:37 PM
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blondgecko wrote: dynosore wrote: Diluted muriatic acid (say 3-5%) should work well, just wear the right protective clothing and rinse the rock when done to get rid of the residual. Realistically, you're not going to dissolve even a small fraction of a mm of rock with a solution like this. The acid will preferentially attack the calcium carbonate over almost any rock type. ... Unless that rock is calcium carbonate (ie. limestone). And no, a 3-5% muriatic acid solution is not "about as acidic as a can of coke". Diluted from typical hardware stores concentrations, that's still around 0.5M, or below pH 1. That's overabout a thousand times more acidic than Coke (pH 3-4, iirc). As to the original question, why not experiment with one of the more "creek safe" detergents?
Commercial muriatic acid is almost as concentrated as what we buy for chem lab use. A 3% solution of it will be 0.3 M, and yes, that's a pH less than 1. Compared to Coca Cola which is pH 2.5. So almost 200X stronger acid. Icks-nay on the uriatic-may. At 3% anyway.
To rgold's point re. oils mixing with the chalk. I suggested a few years ago that the fatty acids from skin oils in the sludge may react with the chalk (which may contain small amounts of magnesium oxide) to form insoluble magnesium soaps. These are not easily cleaned off with alkaline or acidic water solutions. Some really strong grease cutting products would be needed. It should be straightforward to identify Mg soaps by IR spectroscopy, but I'm not in the analytical end of chemistry any more, and my chemist friend who has a lab doesn't seem to climb rock much any more.
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blondgecko
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Sep 18, 2010, 7:57 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: blondgecko wrote: dynosore wrote: Diluted muriatic acid (say 3-5%) should work well, just wear the right protective clothing and rinse the rock when done to get rid of the residual. Realistically, you're not going to dissolve even a small fraction of a mm of rock with a solution like this. The acid will preferentially attack the calcium carbonate over almost any rock type. ... Unless that rock is calcium carbonate (ie. limestone). And no, a 3-5% muriatic acid solution is not "about as acidic as a can of coke". Diluted from typical hardware stores concentrations, that's still around 0.5M, or below pH 1. That's overabout a thousand times more acidic than Coke (pH 3-4, iirc). As to the original question, why not experiment with one of the more "creek safe" detergents? Commercial muriatic acid is almost as concentrated as what we buy for chem lab use. A 3% solution of it will be 0.3 M, and yes, that's a pH less than 1. Compared to Coca Cola which is pH 2.5. So almost 200X stronger acid. Icks-nay on the uriatic-may. At 3% anyway. To rgold's point re. oils mixing with the chalk. I suggested a few years ago that the fatty acids from skin oils in the sludge may react with the chalk (which may contain small amounts of magnesium oxide) to form insoluble magnesium soaps. These are not easily cleaned off with alkaline or acidic water solutions. Some really strong grease cutting products would be needed. It should be straightforward to identify Mg soaps by IR spectroscopy, but I'm not in the analytical end of chemistry any more, and my chemist friend who has a lab doesn't seem to climb rock much any more.
That actually makes a lot of sense - and there's no need for magnesium oxide to do it. Magnesium carbonate will raise the pH of pure water to ~8.3, which is enough to slowly hydrolyse fats over a period of days to weeks. And, as I learned to my consternation when doing a reaction involving Grignard reagent, magnesium complexes with amphiphilic acids to produce solids that are insoluble in just about everything.
Considering the environment that the chalk residue is in - in particular, regular sun exposure, it's quite likely that there'd be polymerization reactions going on (rather like what goes on on the walls of your oven).
In any case, the solution is pretty much the same: either use something to compete for the magnesium (e.g. EDTA, citrate or other chelators) or reduce the pH to ~3 to remove the affinity of the fatty acids for the magnesium, then wash away with a mild surfactant solution. That's probably the secret behind the citrus based degreasers above.
... This all makes me think: there's a number of cheaply-available minerals (titanium dioxide, for example) that, on exposure to sunlight, catalyse the breakdown of organic molecules adsorbed to them. I wonder if spiking a little bit of those into the chalk mix might help reduce the caking problem?
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Nick864
Sep 18, 2010, 5:40 PM
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Super soaker (mentioned above). While the chemical discussion above is interesting, are you sure you wan acid of any type near your gear? I realize its a quarry, but lets not jump onto dumping chemicals into the watershed. (I make no claims as to knowing anything about the above chems or the enviro effects). Super soaker and some nylon brushes (if its not sandstone) should work. Maybe a truly natural citrus degreaser (citra solve) would work. Lets keep in mind that cleaning gym holds is done on the ground, away from climbing gear, and on plastic not rock. Not sure if gym "techniques" apply here
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the_climber
Sep 18, 2010, 6:57 PM
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blondgecko wrote: dynosore wrote: Diluted muriatic acid (say 3-5%) should work well, just wear the right protective clothing and rinse the rock when done to get rid of the residual. Realistically, you're not going to dissolve even a small fraction of a mm of rock with a solution like this. The acid will preferentially attack the calcium carbonate over almost any rock type. ... Unless that rock is calcium carbonate (ie. limestone). And no, a 3-5% muriatic acid solution is not "about as acidic as a can of coke". Diluted from typical hardware stores concentrations, that's still around 0.5M, or below pH 1. That's overabout a thousand times more acidic than Coke (pH 3-4, iirc). As to the original question, why not experiment with one of the more "creek safe" detergents?
Side note about HCl and Carbonate minerals - Ie. Calcite (CaCO3), Dolomite (Ca,Mg)CO3, MagnesiumCarbonate MgCO3, ...
React most effectively with a cool dilute solution of HCl, not strong/concentrated solutions. Calcite (ie. the mineral that Limestone is composed of) is the most reactive mineral to HCl. The most effective concentration for diagnostic and identification purposes (ie, that concentration which produces the best reaction) is 0.1mol/L HCl, and reaction is near complete is very short order resulting in the acid being neutralized.
Higher concentrations typically result in a sludge.
Carry on
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dynosore
Sep 18, 2010, 7:11 PM
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blondgecko wrote: dynosore wrote: Diluted muriatic acid (say 3-5%) should work well, just wear the right protective clothing and rinse the rock when done to get rid of the residual. Realistically, you're not going to dissolve even a small fraction of a mm of rock with a solution like this. The acid will preferentially attack the calcium carbonate over almost any rock type. ... Unless that rock is calcium carbonate (ie. limestone). And no, a 3-5% muriatic acid solution is not "about as acidic as a can of coke". Diluted from typical hardware stores concentrations, that's still around 0.5M, or below pH 1. That's overabout a thousand times more acidic than Coke (pH 3-4, iirc). As to the original question, why not experiment with one of the more "creek safe" detergents?
I should have worded that better. 3-5% muriatic acid in water i.e. 97 parts water and 3 parts muriatic acid solution will give you a safe solution to use, and a pH of about 1.5, which is close to what I recall coke being, 2.5ish. I was trying to keep it simple for non chemist types and confused the issue, my bad.
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mojomonkey
Sep 18, 2010, 8:44 PM
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Nick864 wrote: I realize its a quarry, but lets not jump onto dumping chemicals into the watershed.
Another item to consider about the location is that the area is also a reservoir. Some of the walls are fairly close to the water, thought they are not the most chalked.
Good luck with the cleanup and thanks for organizing it again. I will be out of town for it this year.
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