Hi Everyone!

So my partner and I recently started learning to lead climb at the gym. He has a habit of pulling two arm lengths (at least) of slack before clipping (and he clips high). Usually he'll pull an arms length of rope and place it on either his thigh or his stomach, and then he'll pull another arms length to clip, leaving quite a bit of slack between his harness and the clip, but not much between me and the clip.

It's happened twice where he's taken a ton of slack to clip in, then fallen before clipping, pulling me into the air since I weight considerably less. Once he ended up 2 feet from the ground, the other time he could have stood comfortably on the ground, but luckily fell in a seated position.

It terrifies me, to be honest. Is there something, as a belayer, that I should be doing to mitigate these falls? The gym employees really discourage clipping in for some reason, (something about how it could give my legs rope burn or cause a lot of pain with the snap).

I've tried telling him that he needs to take less slack, but he's insisting he needs that much to clip. Is this his fault, or mine? I really want to fix this problem before we take this outside with real sharp pointy rocks.

Thanks!

Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance?

I think this might be part of the problem. The climbs at the gym are generally set up so the best stance possible is around waist/head level for my partner, but I think he likes the "added security" of being clipped in sooner, and will clip from less optimal stances to that end.

Maybe I could buy a weighted vest for the express purpose of lead belaying him... :)

I usually use my teeth.

Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance?

I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something.

I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall.

It's happened twice where he's taken a ton of slack to clip in, then fallen before clipping, pulling me into the air since I weight considerably less. Once he ended up 2 feet from the ground, the other time he could have stood comfortably on the ground, but luckily fell in a seated position.

Ultimately, in real-life situation, if a leader asks for the slack to clip, you give it. Even if you think it would be better to clip from a different hold, or it would be better not to have quite that much... I know that i have done it more then once, sketched out and clipping from a low hold. I would be pissed if my belayer started arguing with me instead of yarding the slack out when I asked for it.

This should have been a wake-up call to HIM, just like it was for you. But apparently he is either too oblivious to the danger/consequences of a big fall close to the ground, or he needs a more painful lesson, which won't be fun for anyone.

Hopefully over time your partner will learn to better evaluate the situation and to find optimal clipping stances. Gym climbs are, usually by necessity, pretty short, so you are in a ground fall territory for most of the climb. Climbs outside are often taller, so after the 3rd-4th bolt on most climbs you have a bit of a leeway in terms of a fall distance, even if he pulls out extra slack to clip andyou get pulled up.

Maybe next time he is climbing, you guys can try deciding which holds he would clip from, while he is still on the ground. (Ask the route-setter what he envisioned, or watch more experienced climbers to see where they are clipping from on that route). And then once he is on the route, make him stick to it. Remind him, if he starts reaching for the rope earlier, and don't give him the rope. If you are both on the same page about it before he leaves the ground-- e.i. you both agree on the reasons for doing this-- it should be good.

Ultimately, in real-life situation, if a leader asks for the slack to clip, you give it. Even if you think it would be better to clip from a different hold, or it would be better not to have quite that much... I know that i have done it more then once, sketched out and clipping from a low hold. I would be pissed if my belayer started arguing with me instead of yarding the slack out when I asked for it.

Falling while clipping with slack out isn't that uncommon. .

I have definitely never blown a clip, and I've only seen it happen 4 or 5 times. I've seen people pull up slack, then shout fuck and drop it then fall a split second later (after the belayer has reeled most of it in), but never take the full ride.

Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower.

You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct?

If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip.

You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct?

If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip.

Hmm might be common where you climb not where I climb indoor or out and not so sure that should be stated as commonplace.

Our area has walls / crags that are generally short, you're at the top by the time you get to where you could maybe afford(IMHO) a blown clip.

Personally I wouldn't risk blowing a clip below the 6th on a straight up and down body length spaced bolt line. If I don't think I can clip I generally just take the fall.

As someone else mentioned you can't really assume your belayer will be able to get much back either, especially down low. If they have a gri gri I think it's even harder to pull a bunch of slack back fast, the device will want to lock...

No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further.

GO

No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further.

GO

Crack and Red are right. Took me a minute to figure out the difference between lower and farther.

Assumptions: two bolts, 6ft vertical separation, 0ft horizontal separation
Case 1, Clipping from low stance:

Climber’s waist 3ft below upper bolt, 0ft horizontally displaced
Climber grabs ~6ft of rope to make the clip, however before making the clip there is now 9ft of rope out (3ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~6ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~9ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 3ft above the bolt, total fall distance is ~12ft, not ~18ft.

Case 2, Clipping from next to bolt:

Other situation, climber climbs up to second bolt so his/her waist is <1ft horizontally from the bolt. Climber grabs ~1ft of rope to make the clip. Before making the clip there is 7ft of rope out (6ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~1ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~7ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 6ft above a bolt, total fall distance is ~14ft.

Summary

Clipping from low stance = shorter total fall distance, yet ending up farther below last clipped bolt

Clipping next to bolt = longer total fall distance, yet ending up not as far below last clipped bolt.

The bigger issue IMO is how long to takes to make the clip during which you can only use one arm. When clipping from the waist it's not more than a second. If you need to pull up a lot of slack because you're on you're tiptoeing to make the clip then I'd guess it's more like 3 seconds. Add the fact that you will have to make a movement (pulling slack) which can be somewhat strenuous especially if you're high up and can throw you off balance or make a foot slip.

Just as I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

I didn't check your math, but you're making the calculation unnecessarily complicated by including the 1 foot of horizontal separation (which you're handling incorrectly in the calculation anyway—do the trig if you must). For all intents and purposes, the fall length will be the same whether you clip the bolt overhead, at your waist, or anywhere in between. If you actually clip the bolt below your waist, the fall will be longer.

Jay

If the quality of the stance and the handholds are the same no matter where you clip from, then you're right: the time spent clipping is important. But it is commonly the case that the stance or handholds are significantly better at one clipping stance than the other. If they're better at the lower stance then it is often better to make the clip from there than from higher.

Yikes! Sounds like a close catch. So you're blown clips are planned falls, right?

So my partner and I recently started learning to lead climb at the gym.

....

It terrifies me, to be honest.

damn you jay, i think you're right....

(Edited)

I take it back. In the second scenario, the climber has to pull 1.0827ft of rope in order to make the clip. I stand by my ~1ft and I stand by my fall distances.

Ok, I'll admit that the 1ft horizontal example (Case 2) is not good. Replace that with an example of your waist being directly in front of a bolt. Fall from this position and you're looking at a ~12ft fall, ending up ~6ft + rope stretch below last bolt.

Case 1 has you falling the same ~12ft distance, but from a position closer to the lower bolt, so you're going to end up lower.

Disagree?

I will def practice pulling in extra yardage when I see him fall though.

Keep the catch dynamic though!
You can take rope back in while he's actually in the air falling, but once that rope starts to slow him down (once the rope starts to become tight against your belay device), don't forget to lock off and maybe even give a little jump. Taking in while the rope is slowing him down has the potential to slam him into the wall and injure and ankle or two.

I'm mostly concerned about the fact that he pre-emptively takes 2 arm-lengths of slack, whether he needs that much or not.

I will def practice pulling in extra yardage when I see him fall though.

I can confidently tell you that he does NOT need 2 arm lengths. It is physically impossible to reach a clip that is 2 arm lengths away.

In my experience in all but the longest falls, you will only have time for one arms length and to sit down or move back (only do that to prevent hitting the ground/ledge/tree). If hitting anything is not a danger, then pulling in slack and/or sitting down will make the catch harder.

Does sitting down/moving back actually change the fall distance if you're flying into the air regardless? He outweighs me by a good 60 pounds.