Hey people,
I'm a new lead climber (got into trad a few months ago), and I still have a crazy fear of falling. In the gym, it's much less of a problem because chances that I'll hit something are minimal. Outdoors is when the problem really begins. I'm not sure what it is: the act of falling or the fear of hitting some rock on the way down scares me more..

Because of this, I just refuse to lead anything past 5.7 outdoors (even though I can climb much better on TR). Maybe my gear will pop - who knows! This is a huge limitation for me.

Does anyone have any advice on this? Is it just a matter of inexperience?

Thanks everyone!

Practice falling more and trust your skills. Also, they say if you dont trust your gear, dont climb on it.

...Maybe my gear will pop - who knows!...

Hey people,
I'm a new lead climber (got into trad a few months ago), and I still have a crazy fear of falling. In the gym, it's much less of a problem because chances that I'll hit something are minimal. Outdoors is when the problem really begins. I'm not sure what it is: the act of falling or the fear of hitting some rock on the way down scares me more..

Because of this, I just refuse to lead anything past 5.7 outdoors (even though I can climb much better on TR). Maybe my gear will pop - who knows! This is a huge limitation for me.

Does anyone have any advice on this? Is it just a matter of inexperience?

Thanks everyone!

Buy this book. They have it for Kindle which you can download for free and have the book faster than you can read this post. The book "Performance Rock Climbing" by Dale Godard and Udo Nueman does the best job of giving you the information on how to deal with the fears incurred in climbing. It breaks your fears down into real forms of emotion and then prescribes many ways with which to address them. Its scientific but by climbers.. I don't know but these guys really have the answers to the hundreds of different things (both mental and physical) that can effect your climbing. They help diagnose the problem and then provide real and usable methods to overcome the problems. I kind of bought it by mistake but it's now one of my most referenced climbing books. Hope it helps, good luck.

Thanks for the replies guys. Everyone is basically correct here: my experience level is waaaay too small.

Nevertheless, when I did climb with guides, they all said my equipment placement is very good - they would trust my gear - but I don't trust it myself haha. I definitely don't want to push myself on trad in the near future.

Has anyone here taken a huge fall? Does anyone remember their first big fall and how it felt? What about gear popping out? Just wondering if anyone has a personal account.

Has anyone here taken a huge fall? Does anyone remember their first big fall and how it felt? What about gear popping out? Just wondering if anyone has a personal account.

A common rule is to lead only a route you have TRd clean ten times..

'...A common rule is to lead only a route you have TRd clean ten times....
.

I am practicing lead as well, and I just run a TR, place gear on the way up and jump on it as much as I can. I am surprised at how little pro I can get in, even at easy levels, which essentially tells me I need more practice. (And I guess that's "mock lead")

<snip particulars about backing up a gear fall>Take a fall on the gear. It's a win/win. If your piece holds, your trust in your gear will increase tenfold and so will your confidence. If it doesn't hold, you know that your fears were founded and you can either go back to the drawing board, or more seriously consider not exploring that particular discipline of climbing.

Actually, I really don't think this is a very good idea. That's not to say that it won't work. It almost certainly will. The trouble is that I'm not convinced that what the OP wants is something he should have right now. Taking a shortcut may hurt him in the long run.

GO

Cracklover has seemed to nail this answer down better than everyone else has. I'll add a coupl eof things to to this. Humna have a built in fear of falling. It's evolutionary. No one is REALLY comfortable doing it, particularly on gear that you've placed. A little bit of wisdom here...there is a VERY strong likelyhood that you will never get over your fear of falling off a route. I haven't. It's what keeps us alive. You obviously enjoy what you're doing or else you would not come back to it over and over. You've only been climbing what....a few months? Cut yourself some slack. As Cracklover said, you shouldn't be falling on your gear right now anyway. Place hundreds of nuts. Place them sideways, oppose them, stack them, back them up. Place cams, place hexes, place tri-cams.

At some point you will find yourself above your gear and about to fail. You'll look around frantically, you'll feel like shitting your pants, but then you'll remember to get the rope out from your leg. You'll fall as soon as you do this, and the fall will be safe. When you open your eyes, you'll realize that maybe you won't feel like you're going to die the next time. Just maybe!!! It's a just a process we all have gone through, and one day you will be belaying some new kid as he yells and screams before his first fall..and you'll smile and chuckle at yourself.

If you want something interesting, go with Nine out of Ten Climbers Make the Same Mistakes.

Nothing will make more of a difference than this book.

1. You don't want to get rid of your fear of falling; you want to get rid of your irrational fear of falling when it is safe to do so or the risk is acceptable to you (sprained ankle, bruised pride/ego etc - determined by you)

2. Experience in trad gear placement is essential before you voluntarily ping onto it, but experience can come from falling on it with a top rope backup.

3. Look up Graduated Exposure / Exposure, response prevention and make sure you understand every part of the technique - this is the key to reducing your fear.
- Begin by practising on bolted routes at your gym, first from below then at then above, and then with slack out.
- Next lead routes at the gym you may not be able to top rope clean (if the start is dicey pre-clip the first two bolts)
- Boulder on routes with difficult and committing moves - this will increase your confidence in sticking or going for those moves on a route instead of freezing up and not extending.

4. Trusting your belayer is most important - YOU must be in control of everything and know that your belayer will do what you ask whether they agree or not. A bad / inattentive / unsympathetic belayer will do a lot of damage to your confidence.

5. Never be afraid to admit fear before during or after a climb - false bravado is the first step to a serious accident - this is different to becoming consumed by irrational fear. Good climbers know when there is a real or potential risk and talk about it with their belayer so they have a plan.

6. Forget the audience - whoever you think they might be.

7. Fall a lot. All the time. Falling confidence and competence comes with practice and disappears with time if not maintained like any other skill or ability.

There's probably more, this is what I can think of while my 2 year old runs around making a ton of noise while I try to concentrate.

Cheers

Adam

Gonzo, what I meant is that climbers, especially sport climbers, seem to be more comfy falling on bolts than gear. Weren't you pretty scared the first time you were about to let go above a nut or cam that you placed?

I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves.

I do feel a bit of fear when I am placing a bolts on lead while hanging on a hook, but that's a different story all together.

Because the bolt is more reliable.

HTH

Jay

my view

- gear pulls ... even in "good" placements ... weve all seen or heard of it happening

- try not to depend on a single placement between you and the ground or a ledge if possible ... if the stance is good and you dont need the pro later ... plug it in ... its much more important to protect the start of a pitch generally than the end

- develop a very clear sense of when you can or cant fall ... falling is part of the game .. except when you cant

- dont accept shiet gear if another placement is better .... place the gear as best you can ... just because shiet gear held you once, doesnt mean it will again

- if yr gear blows theres a very decent chance of flipping over ... most climbers know to avoid getting the leg behind the rope above the last piece ... but if that piece blows, especially on a traverse or slab, you really have to watch out for the rope ... wear a helmet

- dont try to be a tough guy or a showoff and run it out on sketchy gear at yr limit or beyong where a fall will get injured ... if yr going to run it out, do it because you have no choice or yr out of gear ... or the climb is so well within yr limits it doesnt matter ... unfortunately this means you wont get to show off in front of gurls about how big yr balls are ... or be the best most bad ass climber in the world ... but then youll likely live longer and yr partner wont have to rescue you

- ultimately you wil fall ... just do the best you can about mitigating the risks

- oh and if yr the whipping type of person ... do it on yr own rope and gear ... dont destroy other peoples gear for your enjoyment ...

and the only solution is to climb more, place better gear, and fall ... just be aware you can still get hurt or die

heres a death that should never have happened IMO ... the climb is my favorite warm up and takes perfect gear ... yet the accident stil happened on a "practice fall"

http://squamishclimbing.com/...c.php?f=1&t=1922


peter croft on the route

[image]http://www.mountainproject.com/images/8/5/105910805_medium_ba15e5.jpg[/image]

Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too.

Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too.

X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection.

Jay

X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection.

Jay

Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment.

Curt

Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment.

Somehow I doubt they are statics on this. If you mean all failed gear placements compared to all failed bolt placements, it's not a fair comparison. An unskilled person is more likely to place removable gear than a bolt. I have also seen bolts fail and replaced bolts that were unsafe.

So, let's compare well placed gear to well placed bolts. Both hold equally well. When I climb new areas, especially well established areas, I am more comfortable on gear routes because I know the gear will hold when I fall, I can't say that about bolts. I can inspect my placement, I can't inspect a bolt.

Compare bad gear to bad bolts, both could hold or go. At least when I place the gear, I can evaluate the quality of the placement, when I clip a rusted out bolt, I can't.

With that said, I fall on both on a regular basis. I am comfortable with both the removable gear and bolts in general, I just don't agree that a bolt is safer than removable gear.

Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment.

Well, rangerrob's comment concerned a bolt of unknown origin and quality vs. a solid piece of placed gear. I certainly hope you don't believe that your reply, "because the bolt is more reliable" is always a true statement. Perhaps you didn't mean to be this overly broad. I doubt you really think a 1/4" spinner is more reliable than any well placed nut or cam.

Curt

This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about—even more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts.

Jay

I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer.

I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid.

Jay

First of all, a 1/4-inch spinner isn't of "unknown origin and quality," unless you define "unknown" very narrowly. The fact that it's one-quarter inch and spinning gives us considerable information about its origin and quality.

Secondly, it depends what we mean by "solid." If we mean "won't fail," then, by definition, the "solid" piece of gear will be at least as reliable as any bolt. However, I think it's more realistic to define "solid" as a judgment made by the climber—a judgment whose reliability itself is imperfect. In that case, the average "solid" piece of removable protection is less reliable than the average bolt. This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about—even more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts.

Jay

Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall?

And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUGHeq3SoI

And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUGHeq3SoI

And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...

And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not.

while nice in theory ... what first piece you can get in is sometimes dictated by the placement options available ... and how hard the climb is at the bottom

sometimes fiddling with an upward pull nut at a low crux is a worst thing than just climbing above yr gear ... the belayer just needs to be spot on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ854rwQZUI

Ever seen the rock break/crumble around a bolt causing it to fail? No? Yeah, me either. It's happened to me on gear though...

While well placed gear is as solid as it is built to be I find it hard to believe that trad gear is more reliable than bolts for the average climber. I have to assume that the number of falls taken on bolts is significantly higher than the number taken on gear, but I hear about failed gear placements more often than failed bolts. Maybe trad gear is more reliable than bolts for a well skilled trad climber, but not for everyone. Whether it could be is a different issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUGHeq3SoI

And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...

Travel to more climbing areas, you'll see it.

Ah, but how many bolts have you climbed on that have been placed by newbies?

Not many I'm guessing, so are we comparing like with like?

I would back my bomber placements 100% against an unknown bolt placed years ago by some unknown.

Not all that long ago there was a death here in the Blue Mountains when someone fell on a shiny new bolt placed by people who had no idea what they were doing - the bolt pulled and the rope then sawed across a sharp edge.

Upon inspection several of the other bolts on the route pulled with hand pressure.

Also, if I have placed a piece of gear that is dodgy, I know it is dodgy and look to place another piece as soon as I can. Harder to do on a bolted route wouldn't you say?

So... really? More reliable? Not when you compare like with like.

Cheers

Adam

First of all, a 1/4-inch spinner isn't of "unknown origin and quality," unless you define "unknown" very narrowly. The fact that it's one-quarter inch and spinning gives us considerable information about its origin and quality...

JT, my point still remain, climbers are trusting people they don't know to place bolts correctly.

*snip*

Ok, lets compare like with like.

nOOb bolt VS. nOOb gear = Total crap shoot. Chances of injury or death are high in both cases.

Bolt placed by someone experienced in the craft VS. Gear placed by someone experienced in the craft = Bolt being more reliable, hands down. The are truly multidirectional and have strength ratings twice that of your average piece of gear.

Thanks again for the replies everyone.
People are right, maybe trad is not for me. However, even taking into account my fear of falling and fear of the unknown (as someone pointed out correctly), I still keep coming back to trad climbing, and putting myself in these situations. Every time I'm about to make an iffy move, or place pro that I think may not hold, I tell myself: "never again!" but when I succeed in these climbs I just find myself in love with trad once again.

I do appreciate the personal accounts - they help me out a lot - and that is why I ask questions on these forums.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it happens significantly less often, making bolt more reliable. Post a video, or even a accident report, of three in a row failing in that manor and I'll reconsider.