Wasn't climbing invented by guys so they could impress women?

Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious."
It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others.

Climbing, a more sociable & challenging sport.

Grigri's were invented?

Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms.

Curt

Grigri's were invented?

Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah.

Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms.

Curt

Uhhh... I'm going to go ahead and chime in for curt; he's climbed very diversely throughout the US in the last 30 years– Gunks, South Dakota, NE Washington, Colorado, Joshua Tree, AZ, to name a few places. He's in a good position to offer views of how climbing has changed on a national level over the past generation.

(end of ballcupping)

So all over America then? I'm just saying. Not trying to argue here. Anyway, if women haven't been into climbing until more recently in America, I think its because their hobbies were mostly grocery shopping and cleaning the house (like in the 50's and 60's). Guys have always been free to do whatever the hell they wanted. All I am saying is sometimes this shit sounds like patronization. "Oh look. A girl finally climbed a hard grade. Its amazing" No, you are just now taking notice. I don't want any guys welcoming me into the boys club of climbing, because its not a boy party to begin with.

I think gyms are much less intimidating than outdoor rock, in general, so a lot of people (men and women) who might not otherwise get into rock climbing get into it through plastic climbing. But one big reason I think more women have gotten into the sport of rock climbing most recently is because of developments in protective gear, and probably more bolted routes as well. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few daredevil ladies out there, but most of us tend to be conservative when it comes to life and limb.

So all over America then? I'm just saying. Not trying to argue here. Anyway, if women haven't been into climbing until more recently in America, I think its because their hobbies were mostly grocery shopping and cleaning the house (like in the 50's and 60's). Guys have always been free to do whatever the hell they wanted. All I am saying is sometimes this shit sounds like patronization. "Oh look. A girl finally climbed a hard grade. Its amazing" No, you are just now taking notice. I don't want any guys welcoming me into the boys club of climbing, because its not a boy party to begin with.

Speak for yourself. This is a groundless blanket statement. I don't consider myself as risking life and limb, and I know a lot of men who would never get mud on their shoes or dirt under their fingernails.

I'm really not sure what you're getting defensive and confrontational about. You stated that you "don't think that more women are getting into climbing recently," then when Curt gave reason to believe otherwise, you both imply that he lacks sufficient depth, and make excuses for why women might be under-represented in the sport, even though you still swear that they're not? I'm confused.

Here are some given facts I don't think anyone would disagree with: women are significantly under-represented in climbing; i.e., WAY fewer than 51% of climbers are female. This is across the world, regardless of nation.

Numbers of women climbing are rising, especially since the gym/sport revolution of the early 90s.

For the same reason that women have always been even MORE underrepresented in the more bold, heady styles of climbing (extreme highball bouldering, headpointing, alpinism, r/x routes, or elite level trad-climbing), we have seen the greatest gains of female climbing in competition, sport climbing, and some bouldering.

Here's another question to keep it going: why aren't more women putting up sport route FAs?

Speak for yourself. This is a groundless blanket statement. I don't consider myself as risking life and limb, and I know a lot of men who would never get mud on their shoes or dirt under their fingernails.

I'm doing a paper on how the rock climbing community has adapted to women's needs...my ideas are clothing/equipment, events/workshops, books specifically for women/websites...I interviewed climbers, and I also got the response, "when women used to climb hard grades, they would immediately be downgraded...now, they are treated more equal and taken seriously"

If anyone has any ideas or information about how the community has adapted to women, it would be very helpful! Thank you!!!

Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)...In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world.

Also, I do recognize that you climb waaaaaay harder than me . . . so, I don't know. Maybe you are way bold and don't consider stuff I consider wild and crazy as dangerous. It still freaks me out to watch Steph Davis free solo and talk about it so calmly, as if she didn't realize that a couple pieces of crumbly rock or a fast-moving cloudburst could be the end of her. :)

*facepalm*

pulling the Lynn Hill card in any discussion about numbers of women climbing is useless, and has reached levels of cliche on these websites. It is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence."

(Person A: Hey guys, I've noticed that there aren't too many black climbers.

Person B: OMG MIKE FREEMAN!!! YORE WRONG!!! AND RACIST!)

Here's just a list, off the top of my head, no wikipedia links:

Women who have climbed 5.14 trad:
Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden.

Males who have climbed 5.14 trad:
Caldwell, Honnold, Trotter, Favresse, Pringle, Segal, Macleod, Berthoud, Ouillet, Haston, Randall, Whittaker, Pou, Edl, Houlding, Kamitses, Haas, Hirayama, Pearson, Jorgenson...

While I'm flattered that you think that I climb hard, I know several women who climb a lot harder than I ever will. I don't think this has anything to do with gender. I think it has to do with the desire to climb and push personal limits, which can apply to either sex.

You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises...

Hmm... having an earlier statement proven objectively wrong? Check.

Misinterpreting "anecdotes" as "data?" Check.

Sarcastically and angrily lash out when backed into a corner? Check.

I think we've got enough evidence here. Mods! Ban karmiclimber, it's actually reno under an alternate id!

You are right. Neither of them count and they have secret penises. And I qualified what I said about lynn with "Now not all female climbers are Lynn Hill." But when I got into climbing that is what I saw...the possibility of what I could be as a climber. She really inspired me. And made me feel like I naturally belonged in climbing as a female. Unlike rockclimbing.com...the only place in the world it has ever felt like a battle to be a female climber.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm explaining my perspective. Mine is more limited, obviously. I haven't been climbing for 30 years. I've been alive for 30 years. So, I have seen less. Its true. I think that is where the confusion comes in....what someone who has been climbing for 30 (and alive for much more, obviously sees as recent is going to be different from what a 30 year old thinks is recent). I never said Curt lacked depth. I don't know him at all. But I myself have lived and climbed all over the country. Some places, just once (Garden of the Gods and some places in Lake Tahoe and the desolation wilderness, for example) some places more of a frequent crag (Consumnas, Smith, RRg and NRG among others)....what you see at your home crag contributes more to your perspective on what goes on in the climbing community, in my opinion. I guess when I go into the sport it seemed pretty much 50/50.

I'm pretty surprised your impression is that it's been 50/50 at any time in the last 10 years. Maybe in the gym, but never at a crag I've seen.

It is all about where you look. There are definitely more women in the gym now than there were several years ago. BUT... if you look in the bouldering cave, especially in smaller gyms, it is still a man-zone, primarily. In the gym where I climb it is still unusual to see more than a few women in the bouldering zone, sufficiently so that last week, when there was an influx of new women (who, hopefully, would stay), every single guy had made some sort of a comment about how happy they were to see the ratio shifting towards more even.

At a risk of sounding grade-ist, that makes a difference, too. If you go to crags where the climbs are in 5.8-5.10 range, the ratio is closer to 50/50. If you go to crags where the climbs are in 5.12-5.13 range, the ratio of men/women is much more skewed towards men, and even more so if you take into account women who are there, but only belaying or sitting around.

Even at the Red, where grades are relatively soft and strong women climbers are found in larger numbers than at many crags out West, I had an experience back in March, where I realized at some point of the day that I was the ONLY woman at a crowded crag, with over 20 climbers present.

That was unusually extreme, but I have never seen women represent more than about 20-25% of the population in places like Motherlode, Midnight Surf, Sanctuary or Darkside@RRG; Colliseum, Cirque or Glory Hole @NRG; Pipedream Cave@Maple; Waimea Wall@ Rumney, etc. etc. And this is a noticeable improvement over 10 years ago.

since karmi mostly climbs in the gym, maybe I'm less surprised than you.

Act like a little boy when a woman speaks her mind and experience? Check

Edit to add..."angrily lashing out"? I'm not angry or lashing out. Anecdote as data, yourself, bro.

I DO mostly climb in the gym. Now anyway. I make maybe 1-3 climbing trips a year outside. I have a little girl and in the last couple of years, its been really hard to get outdoors on a consistent basis. But I know the day is coming when I will be back outdoors more often (maybe when the kids are in college?). I suppose that makes me *not count* as a climber nowadays. To me? I am still a climber.
I will say that I climbed for 2 years straight before setting foot in a gym. Did I keep a clicker counter and click every time I saw a female at the crag? No. But I guess since you and caughtinside say its not possible that what I saw was 50/50 (approximately. not literally. duh) then it can't be true. But maybe you guys have different standards for judging what constitutes of a female climber (at least from what curt is implying)? So if you saw a female hangdogging up a 5.8....DOESN'T COUNT. And if you saw a female flashing a 5.13 d....SECRET PENIS. :)

I think gyms are much less intimidating than outdoor rock, in general, so a lot of people (men and women) who might not otherwise get into rock climbing get into it through plastic climbing. But one big reason I think more women have gotten into the sport of rock climbing most recently is because of developments in protective gear, and probably more bolted routes as well. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few daredevil ladies out there, but most of us tend to be conservative when it comes to life and limb.

one more....

I'm temped to make a crack here about women being bad at math, but I feel like l_c would probably cut my rope next time I'm on the sharp end.

Gender isn't irrelevant in climbing because your body isn't irrelevant in climbing. More men climb harder than more women, and the strongest men climb harder than the strongest women, and a woman who has been climbing 10 years and redpoints .12a will frequently get passed by in a couple of seasons by an 18 year old boy who is just learning for the first time.

the craziest feats and the hardest grades are disproportionately populated by men.

The crazy awesome thing about climbing is that in climbing, UNLIKE almost any other sport, it is POSSIBLE for women to do basically anything men can do.

...

So no, it's not a boy's club in that it's someplace women don't belong, but how can you say that it's not a boys club in that the environments are predominantly male? I mean yeah, you can do whatever you want, and nobody is going to tell you this crag is only for ppl with a penis, but sure seems like women have to search harder for female partners, ect. The environments do seem to have a masculine vibe.

For serious?

one more....

I'm temped to make a crack here about women being bad at math, but I feel like l_c would probably cut my rope next time I'm on the sharp end.



Gender isn't irrelevant in climbing because your body isn't irrelevant in climbing. More men climb harder than more women, and the strongest men climb harder than the strongest women, and a woman who has been climbing 10 years and redpoints .12a will frequently get passed by in a couple of seasons by an 18 year old boy who is just learning for the first time.

the craziest feats and the hardest grades are disproportionately populated by men. The crazy awesome thing about climbing is that in climbing, UNLIKE almost any other sport, it is POSSIBLE for women to do basically anything men can do.

And unlike almost any other sport, where the bulk of people live, it makes almost no difference. the differences among moderately talented male and female climbers, say in the 5.10 to 5.12 range, or V4 and under, are not that great. But there are still more men.

And overall, there are still more men.

So no, it's not a boy's club in that it's someplace women don't belong, but how can you say that it's not a boys club in that the environments are predominantly male? I mean yeah, you can do whatever you want, and nobody is going to tell you this crag is only for ppl with a penis, but sure seems like women have to search harder for female partners, ect. The environments do seem to have a masculine vibe.

Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast?

I agree. But this discussion keeps flopping from women in climbing in general to men climbing harder than women. Almost like, "If I can't argue that women haven't been climbing, then I'll switch topics to women can't climb as hard as dudes!" And since when do you post outside of campground anyway Drivel?
(random)

You can call bullshit on my 50/50 if you want, but its what I saw and experienced. My group was mostly myself and one other (that is how I roll. 2 people per group. 4 max and not often). My favorite (anecdote as data) was the 70 year old husband and wife duo at Smith. I've seen at least one woman at pretty much every place I've climbed (except for the desolate places where we saw no one)...and not everytime I go to the same place....exp. sometimes at Consumnas, I only saw guys...same for some parts of the RRG...The only thing I can think is that you guys were someone seeing the women at the crag and if they were momentarily perched on a rock or giving a belay, they weren't climbers?

Yes.

I was going to say a bit more, but based on what others have already told you, it's fairly clear that no additional amount of factual information will have any impact on your preconceived notions.

Curt

whenever i feel like there's sufficiently interesting bullshit. like you attempting to call out curt for lack of breadth of experience. that was some funny shit. we live in the same city. i climb outside 20-30 weekends a year, at basically one of two climbing areas, teh new or the red. and we've never met. so yeah, i question the depth and breadth of your climbing experience.

people are bringing up proportions of women climbers because you fucking said it's been 50/50 for ten years, which is spit-taking ridiculous. proportions are relevant because the experience of a minority group in an activity-based subculture is interesting when it's juxtaposed with non-minority status outside of the subculture.

People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right?

I guess this is it. Everyone I have met while climbing has seemed so friendly and encouraging and cool...especially guys. I guess its hard to know what they are actually thinking til you come to a website like this.

I remember that when I started almost 12 years ago, Fiveten only made one women specific shoe, and it was black (imagine wearing that on a hot summer day on a multiptich climb). I don't don't if they eve made a women specific harness back then. Now there are many choices to choose from.

Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing!

No. Tell me. I'm listening. Don't pidgenhole me and say its my fault that you won't elaborate.

You can call bullshit on my 50/50 if you want, but its what I saw and experienced. My group was mostly myself and one other (that is how I roll. 2 people per group. 4 max and not often). My favorite (anecdote as data) was the 70 year old husband and wife duo at Smith...

No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.

...I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.

No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.

Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious."
It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others.

No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.

Aw, don't leave!

The other change is cosmetic (brighter colors, more color options). I think it would be pretty safe to say that pink glittery chalkbags were not on the market 30 years ago! But then again, there wasn't really a "market" for chalkbags 30 years ago, period.

No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.

While the point you're trying to make about the fashion element in climbing gear and clothing is undeniably true - manufacturers now need to appeal almost equally to women and men - the example you chose is poor. Gear and clothing is actually much less colorful (read garish) now than it was 30 years ago, during the sport craze in the 80s.

I have an old nylon draw I cleaned off a route that was made back then. It's day-glo pink! And don't make me break out that picture of Curt in tights - no-one needs to see that again!

G

what a defensive wreck you are in this thread. who here has tried to tell you that you don't deserve to be a climber? who here has said that you don't belong?

I've been meaner to you than anyone in this thread, by saying that your one trip to Smith for that year, 10 years ago, where you saw a total of 4 climbers including yourself is not good data for saying it's been 50/50 for ten years. But nowhere in there did I saw you don't deserve to be a climber because you have a vagina, christ.

People pretty blithely stated that women's experiences as climbers are still interesting because they're still a minority, albeit a growing one. You jumped all over that and said no, it's 50/50 and has been for a long time, and are fighting that to the death, as if it being 50/50 is the only way for women to be "legit" climbers, which is stupid. Women can be real climbers even if they make up a minority of climbers. And just because they're in the minority doesn't mean the sport is hostile.

I think climbing, as others have stated, is one of the few sports where at the amateur level the gender abilities are not that different and effort can trump talent a lot. YOU brought up Lynn hill and YOU brought up pros (and secret penishes), which is how the conversation derailed in that direction.

I never said that. First of all, when i started out climbing, I went every weekend to Smith. Sometimes even with day trips during the week. I said there were 4 (max) in my group. I don't think I have ever been to Smith in life and seen less than 60 people there (this is an approximation with my bad math skills of course).

You said you didn't know what kind of experience I could have (I'm paraphrasing) if we never met at the Red or new and that I only climb in the gym. And then I, honestly, admitted that yes I do mostly climb in the gym and people keep giving me these 1 star ratings. No one agrees with me. Everything I say gets challenged a million times and then I get a background check into my climbing history to see if what I have to say can be trusted or not. Which is understandable, to a certain degree. The only thing I can think is that I was counting females sitting around at the crag as climbers and maybe other people weren't. Or maybe we climbed at different places. I don't know. Or maybe I was too into climbing (or maybe you were too into the climbing you were doing) to pay very close attention to exact numbers. Maybe in truth it was more like 40/60. I don't know, overall my feeling (I motherloving know that my FEELING doesn't count for anything...I'm just SHARING it) was that it was at the least fairly close to even...never enough to make me feel like what am I doing here in this boys only land.
Anyway, If I can figure out with my dumb blonde hair how to delete my account, then I'm off RC.com. I thought it would be a fun place to talk to other climbers about climbing. But its not fun for me. I just feel like people here don't like me. And I don't like feeling picked apart all of the time. And I mean how do you think I would I would feel if I ran into at the Red or New now? I would probably want to hide. Esp. since i feel like all of the awesome hard heady climbers are laughing at the chick who sometimes flails up 8's.

And I mean how do you think I would I would feel if I ran into at the Red or New now? I would probably want to hide. Esp. since i feel like all of the awesome hard heady climbers are laughing at the chick who sometimes flails up 8's.

Aw, don't leave!

Sheesh, let it go. It's clearly not even productive anymore.

Really? Please elaborate. Since I use double ropes most of the time, I rarely use a grigri.

Come now. NA doesn't think women are incompetent belayers, nor are the comments on this thread meant to discourage women from climbing!

Grigri's, like most great inventions, were born of necessity. Women were just unable to maintain control of the rope.

Since you use doubles, I'm sure you use a device with a "high friction mode". They were invented to address that specific scenario. That and to keep you from killing yourself on rappel.

People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right?

I thought grigris were invented so that when you brought down a shower of rocks on your belayer and knocked him or her unconscious, the device would still catch you.

Gee, you sure read a lot into something that nobody ever said.

after all the shit you said to me on the ladies forum about a simple harness question your one to talk. you made alot of wrong assumptions about me and my wife without knowing what the fuck you were talking about.

Mmrow.

after all the shit you said to me on the ladies forum about a simple harness question your one to talk. you made alot of wrong assumptions about me and my wife without knowing what the fuck you were talking about.

umm no she was bangon!

No, I know about N/A. I am just so sick of being judged as a climber. I just do it because I like it. And everyone is making me feel like I don't deserve to like it or talk about it or share my experiences and they don't count because I don't go every weekend. Or even every other weekend. Or because I can only lead 5.8 at most.
I'm outta here. I feel like maybe its time to give up climbing. I'm sick of telling myself I do deserve to be a climber, with everyone telling me I don't.

Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)...In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world.

People will say things on the internet what they would unlikely say to your face. For instance, NA's comment about the grigri being adapted for women. This comment implies that NA believes women to be incompetent belayers. I doubt that he would openly say that to a woman's face. But thanks to the internet, we know what he really thinks, right?

the butthurtz is strong

Probably ruining his evil plan, but having climbed with him and knowing him personally, I'm betting his comment was 99% on the troll-with-hopes-of-derailing-the-thread side and 1% on the actual-belief-that-his-comment-is-true side.

I mean, this is RC.com and it's not like this is a new topic or anything.

I don't understand this mentality, either. I liked karmi's participation in RC.com. I don't know why folks go around slapping each other on the back when somebody leaves out of frustration.