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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 1:07 PM
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Sometimes I take mid-late day breaks to down cold ones, then feeling a good glow we go back out climbing. I feel great after a few beers, seems to take the edge off, less hesitation, less fiddling with gear, seems to make me climb better. Seriously, anyone else feel the same?
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clymber
Jun 21, 2003, 1:24 PM
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note to self never climb with vtposter....now think about the goverment made it illeagle to drive a car after a few drinks because it impairs your judgement....so you think its safe to climb and place gear with a buzz on...thats pretty damn scarey in my opinion and stupid.....might have a winner here for the Darwin Award
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fearless1
Jun 21, 2003, 1:46 PM
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I agree with clymber.....definitely a Darwin award for next years edition. Definitely would not want to be the one belaying or following your gear placement....save the beer for after climbing....if you have so much hesitation placing gear, than perhaps you are climbing above your skill level?
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wildtrail
Jun 21, 2003, 1:54 PM
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In reply to: Sometimes I take mid-late day breaks to down cold ones, then feeling a good glow we go back out climbing. I feel great after a few beers, seems to take the edge off, less hesitation, less fiddling with gear, seems to make me climb better. Seriously, anyone else feel the same?
Personally, I think that's a terrible idea. Nothing like having slowed reactions and dulled thinking when engaging in an activity with fatal possibilities.
Granted, everyone has the right to do what they want to do, but on this site I see a lot of irresponsible people. Drinking and smoking pot (both of which I enjoy) while climbing. Plain stupid in my book, but that's my opinion. I save the partying for after the climbing. I guess I just want to be safe.
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ninjaslut
Jun 21, 2003, 2:05 PM
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The state of mind one gets in when one drinks (even just a little) is deceptive. Remember, all the judgements you're making about how climbing is better after a few beers are based on observations made after a few beers. Would you trust a UFO siting, or testimony in a crimal trial attested to by someone who admits to having had a few beers at the time? Likewise, you should understand your recollection of bomber pro placement was judged while impared. You really have no way of knowing now whether any of that stuff could have held you in a fall, as you were in no condition to detirmine that at the time. Even if you did fall once or twice, you may have just fallen on of the few that worked well enough.
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 2:08 PM
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Im not saying I get drunk while I climb, there is a big difference between a drunken stooper and a warm glow. I guess its just being able to know your own limits. What about smoking herb and climbnig? I suppose you guys frown upon that as well. Dont knock it till you tried it.
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ninjaslut
Jun 21, 2003, 2:20 PM
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In reply to: Im not saying I get drunk while I climb, there is a big difference between a drunken stooper and a warm glow. I guess its just being able to know your own limits. What about smoking herb and climbnig? I suppose you guys frown upon that as well. Dont knock it till you tried it. |
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weaselman
Jun 21, 2003, 2:21 PM
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vtposer said:
In reply to: What about smoking herb and climbnig?
the more man smoke herb, the more babylon fall
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treeman
Jun 21, 2003, 2:27 PM
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are you able to find a partner to climb with after a few beers? beer just makes people sloppy, just look at people in a bar.
i climb tree's for a living, and i prefer pot over beer. but the 2 do not mix. yes i have gotten stoned a few times before climbing, but it made me slow as $hit. i was too busy second guessing myself. plus i do not want the added burden that i hurt myself or my partner because i was stoned.
save the beer / weed for after the ropes are coiled. climbing is dangerous enough. can you live with yourself if something happened to your partner after you had a few?
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overlord
Jun 21, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: I've tried them both, so now I can knock it. And I will. It's dumb. Period.
me2. it sucks. even one beer dulls your reflexes and precision. i only tried once after a beer and once after a little grass, and it SUCKS. i could climb only about 1 grade lower than my level and that was pushing it. not to mention the secutity issues.
now, a cold one AFTER climbing. and maybe some pizza... mmmmmmmm
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 21, 2003, 3:33 PM
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For me the climbing is so much fun and so special that I don't need to drink and I don't smoke anymore anyways. The climbing itself is my drug. I do tend to get blistered after a scary climb though. One of my best partners smokes a ton of weed and usualy does a hit or 2 before climbing. He is very solid and never overdose it on multi pitch but can get carried away while craggingor spurt climbing. I have seen him do some pretty stupid stuff after burning one. He is the rope gun though so what do you do :roll:
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 3:35 PM
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My partner is the one who buys the beer and packs the bowls man! One time I had him tie beers to the haul line so I wouldnt loose my buz as I aided over the crux roof. all you guys who say you get tippsy after one beer are either quears or lightwieghts or both. I can have at least a three and my fine motor skills arent effected, period. As for mixing pot and beer, I find that after a few chokers the beer really helps with the cotton mouth.
"Drinking!" "Drink on!"
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sirtis
Jun 21, 2003, 3:45 PM
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:arrow: your lucky when ever I try to down a few cold ones Im sent to my room...damn laws...
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pehperboy
Jun 21, 2003, 3:48 PM
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Oh man, when I see sh*t like this going on at the crag I prefer to find somewhere far, far away. I bring my first aid kit, pullies and static line for myself and the people I climb with - just in case. Don't want to have to assist in rescuing some drunk/stoned dimwit. If it's just you and your buddies, climb on. But you put other climbers in a situation where when you have an accident they forced to take responsibility for your drunken (sorry "glow on") screw ups. And I for one don't want to witness a fatality - under any circumstances.
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climbjs
Jun 21, 2003, 3:49 PM
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I've done it. Of course, I've done many stupid things. In hindsight, I wouldn't do it again- although it seemed fun at the time!
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 4:00 PM
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Oh, Jeez. thanks pehperboy. I can sleep easier knowing you have your pully and static line with you at all times. ready to save the day. and FYI we prefer Mentaly challenged, not dimwit. :roll:
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sauron
Jun 21, 2003, 4:07 PM
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I think people should do what they want at the crag, be it grass, alcohol or harder drugs..
Look at it this way - once they kill themselves, there'll be one less person to deal with at our already overfilled crags...
- d.
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treeman
Jun 21, 2003, 4:09 PM
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some years back i spent a season ski patroling in VT. it was interesting how after lunch most of the people that needed help had alcohol on their breath. did alcohol cause this? can;t say for sure but i bet it made them ski a little more reckless.
didn't some one in CO get charged with man slaughter after killing a man by skiing into him after he had a few.
why not just drink vodka out of a flask? humping them beers to the crag must get heavy. then you could keep the flask in your chalk bag for mid climb nips. do you pack out your empty's? with all that drinking do you have to piss at hanging belays?
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fieldmouse
Jun 21, 2003, 4:13 PM
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whats the big deal? I know about a hundred people here in flagstaff who got soused as fuck and still crank. as for puffing down before climbing-I know about 2 people who dont. Get over it. now climbing on acid-thats sketch.
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beastmaster
Jun 21, 2003, 4:35 PM
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"Whats the big deal ?!°?!?"
Now my 12 year old son wants to take beer on our next trip.
Thanks, RC:com !!!1
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: why not just drink vodka out of a flask? humping them beers to the crag must get heavy. then you could keep the flask in your chalk bag for mid climb nips. do you pack out your empty's? with all that drinking do you have to piss at hanging belays?
Hauling beers is good trainning. besides we bring cans which are much lighter and can be crushed for easy carry out.
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calamity_chk
Jun 21, 2003, 4:42 PM
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i'd sport climb and boulder with a buzz on. trad is scary enough as-is though.
then again, it's lunch time and i'm still recovering from the hangover from last night .. doh.
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pehperboy
Jun 21, 2003, 4:46 PM
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Hey, no problem VT. Don't think I'd want to waste my precious resources on someone like you though. Prefer to let nature take its course . . .
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pehperboy
Jun 21, 2003, 4:50 PM
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BTW VTPoser, have considered going to AA to get help with your substance abuse problem? Do us all a favour and check it out - before you kill or injure yourself or someone else.
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fieldmouse
Jun 21, 2003, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: "Whats the big deal ?!°?!?" Now my 12 year old son wants to take beer on our next trip. Thanks, RC:com !!!1
you let your 12 year old look at these forums?
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jefffski
Jun 21, 2003, 5:40 PM
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hey vtposer,
i think i saw you at the crag. you're the kewl dude whose dog sh*t on my rope! actually we all know you-you're the one with the boom box blasting awy while you and your friends top rope the hell out of the first pitch of the best multi pitch climb, beta your way up through the 5.11 crux with 10 hangs and then when you come down brag about how you 'sent' that one.
we don't like you vtposer because you give climbers a bad name.
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alpinestylist
Jun 21, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Ya'll sound like a pretty stodgy crowd.
Noone else has gone climbing blitzed before???
I believe it has a well documented history. My highlight list of stupid things I've done...
Drunk as shet passed out halfway up after six after having a gladiator solo race up it.
Soloing marathon on Lumpy ridge on mushrooms.
The herb comes and goes in my life, at times I've puffed every pitch (yes, multipitch). Others only back at camp. Pretty much don't know that it has ever slowed me down. Best memory is sitting on Awahnee ledge, totally vegatative, my sober partner laughing at my giggle as he handed me the rack for the top block. CTC 7 hours.
Not everyone is the same in regards to attentiveness with a buzz. We all know you get better with practice. To paint the climbing community as straight laced and sober is to suggest you aren't well traveled or experienced. Name me ONE campground where people aren't drinking beers in camp and burning at the crag?
I'm not advocating getting sloppy and dropping your partner. Or soloing and dropping the rack. But come on...
VTPoster, very much like your experience I remember having a few at the end of a day in Vedauwoo. As the sun was going down we rolled over to the Cupcake boulder with a nice buzz, steady nerves and good times.
Lighten up folks.
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grayhghost
Jun 21, 2003, 6:20 PM
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"Downward Bound" (the greatest climbing book ever) gives tips on how to haul wine up the Nose. Now how can you deny that climbing and drinking are not paired for eachother?
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 6:21 PM
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I love all these holier than thou people who say "you give climbers a bad name" FU buddy! I give a F*CK weather or not you like me? I've met some great friends through climbing and most if not all drink and smoke and climb and we all have a blast giving climbers a bad name. what a joke. its people like you Jeffski that give climbers a bad name, quick to judge and care to much about what others think about you. and if I did have a dog I'd train him to sh*t on your rope.
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psych
Jun 21, 2003, 6:24 PM
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vtposer and others who admit to climbing blitzed, you're just doing yourself out of potential partners here, you realize this, right?
I personally love the 1 beer buzz, it's my salvation from work...but there's no WAY I'd do that before climbing, even just one beer. First off, halfway up I'd have to take a leak and I can't even imagine how that'd work. But secondly, my judgements would be just a bit off, not a lot, but enough that if I took a fall, would I do the right things?
Mike...
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alpinestylist
Jun 21, 2003, 6:53 PM
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If you folks are so quick to condemn me, or generalize and paint these conservative views of life, then dare I say sir "I would choose not to climb with you".
As far as "outing" myself to potential partners...there are very few of you whom I would enjoy getting out with. And any of them, while they maybe sober, aren't pompous pricks.
Besides...I doubt you could keep up. Take a look around, midnight lightning, the problem you'll fall off the first holds of if you ever make it to camp IV, was concieved while not "high on life".
Harding is a perfect example of living life and climbing.
If you people can't be COMPLETELY responsible for yourself and your actiions, yes even in a climbing situation, after just ONE beer,
then your noone I would count on with MY life.
I know there are times when you need to be completely sober when climbing.
As an example of NOT needing to be sober I offer the following...
I was soloing the Shortest Straw in 2000. I just climbed the pitch going into the grey circle when a rope snaps down at the bottom of the pitch. Some dudes on Zodiac had whipped, busted his wrist and needed help off. They offered some of life's finer pleasures if I helped. I joined their team (cuz when climbers ask for help, YOU HELP).
They fed me King Cobras, and filled my lungs with vile things. About three in the afternoon, completely wasted, I decide that enuff is enuff and we are topping out that day. I hop on lead, lead all the pitches to the top while they haul, and we top out at 11...but darn it by then I was sober.
Again, maybe in the world you live in, alchohol ruines you and any ability you have to function. In mine, it is sometimes just part of life and doesn't ruin me.
I don't drive drunk (but would if it weren't illegal.). I have climbed in all areas of climbing. I'm sure at one point or another I have enjoyed a buzz while doing all of them.
Soloing and herb go together like yin and yang.
I do not mean to insult or flame anyone, I just think to say anyone that drinks or smokes while climbing is a worthless climber is foolhardy.
I could go on and on, but I won't.
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flamer
Jun 21, 2003, 7:38 PM
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Alpinestylist,
I'd climb with you anywhere anytime....
Not because you drink/smoke or not....
Because you're a fun cat to hang around!
And I know that stoned or not, you'd never drop me.
josh
P.S.
I have an Idea for something NEW at Lumpy...thought you might want to come along for some "rehab"....I'll carry the beer!
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fieldmouse
Jun 21, 2003, 7:46 PM
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a lot of the more grievous lines on el cap and half dome were put up by tripping, coked-up, drunk ass potheads.
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jefffski
Jun 21, 2003, 7:47 PM
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we don't have a responsibility to each other? think about the camp 4 proposal in the valley. many respected climbers got on that one for us and kept the development away. i would think that if the 'establishment' believed that we were all drunken a*holes, their pleas would have been ignored.
vtposer--it's the likes of you that do us no good in the efforts to keep crags accessible.
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addiroids
Jun 21, 2003, 8:49 PM
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Geez, I didn't know there were this many climbers who didn't climb inebriated at least a few times a season. I don't smoke la buen hierba (good herb) but do drink occasionally mid day. Most of the time this is at Josh when we have climbed hard crap all morning, then just don't need to climb hard anymore, so just start drinking and start slab climbing. No, I never have nor never could climb at my level while drinking, but do climb below my level after a few beers. I don't get "drunk" but do get a good buzz. I also don't solo drunk just incase something happens I am not found with any BAC. The funniest time was when I showed up at HVCG at 7am, in February this year, it was cold as hell, so I started drinking a bit, and my friends started blazing. By 9am it was warm, and they were high as hell. Needless to say, I did the leading that day since they could barely even think. I am safe and don't get too impaired to affect my true judgement and respect the danger of stuff and when it comes to serious stuff, I don't screw around.
But we don't need these holier-than-thou people who say drugs and climbing don't mix. Again, a lot of our heros from the 1970's (you better respect them!) were wasted more than not. And they climbed harder then many of you or I could ever dream of.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 8:56 PM
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Right on! thats usualy what we do, after pushing the grades all day we chill for a bit in the shade, tie one on and then tie in and do some slab climbing. makes for a great ending to a perfect day of climbing.
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pehperboy
Jun 21, 2003, 9:23 PM
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No disagreement about booze and herb being in the mix of the climbing lifestyle, and no one's saying climbers should be Mormon-like. The reality is that goofs like vtposer, who think it's a hoot to climb drunk or stoned, are putting themselves and others at risk.
Drink and drug and party to your heart's content - after the climbing is all done. Climbing requires a 100 per cent commitment to safety - something that's not all that easy to practice at times. But going about it while impaired pretty much wipes out the commitment - never mind getting to 100 per cent.
And if someone like vtposer makes that choice to climb drunk or stoned, then I don't want to be around to witness the carnage or have to assist in a rescue. If I see him at the crag drunk and stoned with boom box blaring, I'm leaving to find another crag or coming back another day. :evil:
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teagueblue
Jun 21, 2003, 9:47 PM
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Yeah. What he said. No one should smoke cigarettes or drink coffee either. I actually prefer a high colonic before climbing. Then I may be a bit extreme.
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stickclipper
Jun 21, 2003, 9:53 PM
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I don't think this thread was about getting absolutely hammered or dropdead stoned and then going climbing. Climbers make their own decisions. If you can handle a beer at lunch or a couple of tokes and continue on, and if your partner's cool with it, then by all means, please don't go asking everyone at the crag if they're ok with it. Go ahead. Just know your limits. It affects all people differently.
You people who think that you can't climb because you've downed a cold one are pretty close-minded. You probably think soloing should be outlawed too, becasue "it endangers you and everyone else" and "it gives climbers a bad rep". Would you pass up having sex because you've had a drink or two? Oh, that's right, it probably makes you flacid. Here, let me see your girlfriend for a sec, I think I know what to do...
I think we all know that beer and weed have been with climbers all along. I wouldn't say that either substance HELPS. But in moderation, I don't think it hurts either. It's you and your partners' choice. Climbing is as safe as you make it. If you're not a reckless asshole, then you're doing fine. Climb on.
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jefffski
Jun 21, 2003, 10:24 PM
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In reply to: My partner is the one who buys the beer and packs the bowls man! One time I had him tie beers to the haul line so I wouldnt loose my buz as I aided over the crux roof. all you guys who say you get tippsy after one beer are either quears or lightwieghts or both. I can have at least a three and my fine motor skills arent effected, period. As for mixing pot and beer, I find that after a few chokers the beer really helps with the cotton mouth.
does this sound ok to you?
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smiley
Jun 22, 2003, 9:25 PM
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Well, all I can say is this: a friend of mine lost her brother because he was drinking while climbing, zipped his bivy all the way shut, and well, you know how it ends. The saddest part is, this is the kind of thing that we tend not to think about too much. It won't happen to us, that's the important thing. But she'll never have her brother back, an who knows but he was just one of the masses that figured it wouldn't happen to him.
I'd want to figure out what is happening that is creating the edge that the drinks are removing. I'm in agreement that maybe you're climbing above your skill level. I always harp on the same thing, but there *is* a difference between confronting fear and suppressing your natural self-preservation devices. If you need to increase your risk of injury through drinking in order to decrease the perception of risk, it's time to step back and realize this climb doesn't need to be done today. IMHO
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roninthorne
Jun 22, 2003, 10:59 PM
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In reply to: Oh man, when I see sh*t like this going on at the crag I prefer to find somewhere far, far away. I bring my first aid kit, pullies and static line for myself and the people I climb with - just in case. Don't want to have to assist in rescuing some drunk/stoned dimwit.
Hilarious... and pehperboy, please understand in advance that I am not singling you out, but simply responding to all the sanctimonious crap I've read here so far...
Why are you contriving this connection between drinking a beer or two (or burning some fat dank) and climbing, and accidents at the crags, when it is in fact the stone-sober folks who fall to the ground and go "boom" 99.999% of the time? (Buzzer sounds) Sorry, nice try, wrong answer.
In reply to: If it's just you and your buddies, climb on. But you put other climbers in a situation where when you have an accident they forced to take responsibility for your drunken (sorry "glow on") screw ups.
Oh, re-a-a-a-al-l-llly? If its just me and my buds, then we don't put anyone in any situation, do we? We choose to place ourselves in different perceptual context, is all, and accept the consequences, confident (from past experience rescuing other, sober people) that we can deal with them.
In reply to: And I for one don't want to witness a fatality - under any circumstances.
And again I say that you better stop hanging around with that non-drinking, non-pot-smoking crowd, bro... they seem to be the ones that die by the dozens, while climbing, rapping, and hiking in or out, every year, from Iowa to Everest.....
BTW- you folks ever heard of Warren Harding? Top the final drilling efforts on the mega-epic FA of the Nose before you go bashing someone who drinks and climbs, 'kay?
(No, I am not advocating getting housed and sending your testpiece... but I am a practicioner and a survivor of years of killing one 16 oz Guiness between three people, usually to cure the smokey burning in our throats, before going on to climb for another two or three hours, usually while putting up new routes for all you teetotallers to enjoy. No sweat off my belay device... to each their own.... but judge not and be ye not judged, as De Man sez....)
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roninthorne
Jun 22, 2003, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: If I see him at the crag drunk and stoned with boom box blaring, I'm leaving to find another crag or coming back another day. :evil:
Wow... talk about making it up from whole cloth... now, apparently, drinking and smoking at the crags automatically creates a boombox in your location, which is automatically and irrevocably set to max volume! Incredible!
And all this time I had no idea we possessed these powers....
And, BTW, jeffski- about 90% of the folks making decisions about your public lands and mine have drug habits (caffeine/nicotine/sugar) and livers that look like sea coral....
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mhr2000
Jun 23, 2003, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: If you people can't be COMPLETELY responsible for yourself and your actiions, yes even in a climbing situation, after just ONE beer, then your noone I would count on with MY life.
I'm going to assume you didn't actually mean this the way it sounds. This has to be the most idiotic statement I've ever heard so it can't possibly mean how it sounds. And I'm not trying to slam you, just begging for clarification here.
I'm going to assume this statement does not include people who don't or never have drank? Please tell me it doesn't include them.
Even so, alcohol affects everyone different and it's quite possible for even the most brilliant sober person to become a complete dumbass after one beer yet some people have no problem. I don't drink and when around people who are drinking it's very easy for me to see how they change even after one beer.
In any case, I won't be climbing with anyone who is smoking pot, drinking or intoxicated while actually climbing, but any other time it's none of my business they can do what they want.
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corpse
Jun 23, 2003, 12:55 AM
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Some ppl really are affected differently. One girl I knew couldn't study without being high - she smoked EVERY morning b4 school, and was deans list honor roll all 4 yrs. Although I enjoy some - I can't see belaying or any serious climbing while on anything. It would be fun to get a bit hammered or sumtin and do some top-roping.. There is LITTLE room to get hurt on a top rope. The key there I think is a sober belayer. Therefore, ya just need to maintain a nice ratio of nighttime db'ers - the Designated Belayer :-) Then again, it's all about exposure and risk - some ppl like the risk I guess - or maybe it brings them more peace in climbing with the rock if they are stoned.
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teagueblue
Jun 23, 2003, 12:57 AM
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Breath-a-lyzer and piss tests at the crags might not be a bad idea. I'm actually thinking about starting a new movement HWJC (How Would Jesus Climb?) I'm thinking of whole line of merchandise, chalk bags and stuff with HWJC emblazoned. Anyone interested? Let's all join hands....
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weaselman
Jun 23, 2003, 1:04 AM
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it seems like the safest way to climb while drunk would be unroped bouldering, as there is no ropework or knot tying.
but still, being drunk hugely impairs your judgement, so it's probably not smart.
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styndall
Jun 23, 2003, 1:25 AM
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In reply to: Breath-a-lyzer and piss tests at the crags might not be a bad idea. I'm actually thinking about starting a new movement HWJC (How Would Jesus Climb?) I'm thinking of whole line of merchandise, chalk bags and stuff with HWJC emblazoned. Anyone interested? Let's all join hands....
WTFWJD???
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overlord
Jun 23, 2003, 8:15 AM
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In reply to: it seems like the safest way to climb while drunk would be unroped bouldering, as there is no ropework or knot tying. but still, being drunk hugely impairs your judgement, so it's probably not smart.
but it includes spotting. maybe indoors with a noce thick crashpad.
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redpoint73
Jun 23, 2003, 11:05 AM
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Is this thread a f_cking joke?
If you need to ask fellow alcoholics for reassurance, then its obviously not OK.
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gretchino
Jun 23, 2003, 2:45 PM
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In reply to: Is this thread a f_cking joke? If you need to ask fellow alcoholics for reassurance, then its obviously not OK.
I am in agreeance with Redpoint73. Would you people actually read what you're saying? Getting stoned and drunk while climbing?! Knowing your limits?! I don't care if you do know your 'limits', this is just plain rediculous and stupid....take your death wish somewhere else
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mr.shortround
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Jun 23, 2003, 2:51 PM
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I see nothing wrong with a drink or two while climbing. Personally I'll only have 1 drink before I climb, and even then it must be top rope or sport climbs. (then again, trad still scares the crap outa me) Ironically I've found that I can actually climb better with a drink in me, it helps me to calm my nerves. (I'm also terrified of heights) I say if you AND YOUR PARTNER are comfortable with having a drink before climbing, go for it. The risk is yours to take.
The exception to this is bouldering. I say bring on all the booze you want. As far as spotting goes, the amount of spotting you need while sober is alot higher than when drunk. The more drinks you have, the crappier you will climb. I find that as I get more and more intoxicated I will move to vertical, then to slab problems. By the time you are really affected, you will only be climbing about 3 feet off the ground, and unless you wandered onto a v0 with a really crappy landing, you will be fine.
just my .02
-Stu
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dingus
Jun 23, 2003, 2:53 PM
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In reply to: vtposer and others who admit to climbing blitzed, you're just doing yourself out of potential partners here, you realize this, right?
So are all you Puritans. You do realize this, right?
(sheesh! like HE wanted to climb with YOU. Right! LOL!)
DMT
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dingus
Jun 23, 2003, 2:55 PM
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In reply to: we don't have a responsibility to each other?
No. I have no responsibility for you, none whatsoever. Nor will I accept any. That's the world right there. Better get used to it.
DMT
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dingus
Jun 23, 2003, 2:59 PM
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Me and a few good friends went deep into the wilderness to attempt an FA. We were armed with every known piece of climbing equipment, and even a few top secret gadgets being deployed for the first time. We had a well stocked base camp with a folding table, lawn chairs and fresh meat cooked over a warm fire. Mmmmm. We also freighted in about 6 cases of beer, 2 quarts of Ta-Killya and a Mini-keg. At first we worried we'd layed in too much alcohol. I mean, you can't get much climbing done on a hang over, right?
Well, all too soon we worried we hadn't brought nearly enough.
Know what I mean?
DMT
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crack_head
Jun 23, 2003, 4:17 PM
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i feel like i do everything better after 3-4 especially speaking french, and talking to girls hahahaha, i have yet to try it while climbing though i dunno about that
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alpinestylist
Jun 23, 2003, 4:22 PM
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I reeeaallllly reaaaallllyy realllllly try not to play the elitist prick card...but this thread is too much.
I look over the location of you uber-experienced climbers who live in meccas like Evansville, Indiana. Used to go to school there. Go Mater Dei wrestling. Climbing??? Me thinks not.
I think this thread just reveals a dichotomy within climbing. People who can hack life, and people who run. Which is which is the paradox?
Whoever tried to call me out about the one drink thing...quite literally YES, if you can't keep your poop in a scoop after just one drink, then NO you wouldn't ever find yourself tied in with me. Does this mean we have to always drink (and in reality rarely do) before climbing. Heck no. But it does say something about your character.
I recant that statement and amend it for my friend Scott Decapio. Sober fella...rarely ever drinks...has soloed more Grade VI ice in the Canadian Rockies than anyone else I know...him I trust.
You punters are the people that retro bolt bold routes too, because they aren't up to your 9 to 5 standard.
The Valley Plan...ever heard of J. Middendorf? He was an advocate...but he never drank or played with anything, eh?
Go back to your hypothesizing about real climbing and what it takes, rub your carpel tunnel, snap one of in the bathroom after you read someone else's trip report, and ....
Stay near the little rocks, they offer your only sanctuary.
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jefffski
Jun 23, 2003, 8:14 PM
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In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak for me.
MARTIN NIEMOELLER
(German theologian imprisoned throughout World War II)
As cited in Influencing Minds by Leonard Roy Frank
In reply to: In reply to: we don't have a responsibility to each other? No. I have no responsibility for you, none whatsoever. Nor will I accept any. That's the world right there. Better get used to it. DMT
i'm not telling you how to behave. however i am saying that your behaviour may have immediate consequences for people around you and and long term effects on all of us. So i'm speaking out against your behaviour. What you do does matter to me.
if you don't like living in a society where people have responsibility to one another i would suggest afghanistan or iraq. in those places there is lawlessness and anarchy. perfect for you (apolgies to people in those place--he'd only make your lives worse).
nor is this to say that i am perfect. i behave in ways that are 'bad', but i don't brag about it, i would like to stop doing those things, i don't rationalise the behaviours and i'm not proud of them.
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dingus
Jun 23, 2003, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: if you don't like living in a society where people have responsibility to one another i would suggest afghanistan or iraq. in those places there is lawlessness and anarchy. perfect for you (apolgies to people in those place--he'd only make your lives worse).
Hehe, I don't believe you know the first thing about either place you haven't seen on the 700 Club or read in the Limbaugh Letter.
DMT
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sticky_fingers
Jun 23, 2003, 8:28 PM
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Can't do it cuz of my teeth.
I always end up wacking the bottle against the wall when I hold it in my teeth when I dyno.
gaffaw
gaffaw
lame topic
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anothertucsonclimber
Jun 23, 2003, 8:53 PM
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Unfortunately dude - I don't think you have a long climbing career ahead of you if you keep that crap up. Been there, done it - ITS DUMB!!!!!!!
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czarcastic
Jun 23, 2003, 9:10 PM
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Ok, I think we can all agree to disagree...I think most people will look at the "other" side and shake their heads and know that the others particular behaviour is not what they want to do themselves. It just comes down to a judgement call by the people involved and I don't think anyone can generalize or make assumptions regarding it, especially if they have never tried it. It obviously works for some people, occasionally for me, but probably would be a bad thing for a lot of people. Does it make you dangerous? Yes it most definitely could, but so could not tieing your knot correctly, getting in over your head on a climb or deciding on ignoring the weather. It comes down to a judgement call and sometimes people make the wrong calls and pay for it. Some people have said that they would hate to be around to deal with an accident involving someone who is drunk, but personally I would hate to deal with some of the unsafe people I have seen at the crag. Would I help them after they did something stupid and I was in the area and could provide assistance. Hell Yes! Would I possibly find somewhere else to climb before something happened, or offer helpful advice? Maybe, but I doubt I would care either way if the person was drunk or stupid or both when an accident does happen, because either way, an accident was most likely a bad judgement call and who am I to blame.
People who like to have a few while climbing, Great! People who don't, Great! Just don't climb with one another and things will be fine. We have too many historical examples in climbing that can prove it can help certain people either way, so why bother arguing who is right and who is wrong, because regardless of whats said here, I still like to puff before some climbs and my belayer does too. If that makes me stupid in your eyes thats fine, I'll leave my judgement of you until when I actually know you.
If you feel the need, flame at will, I'm high anyway and don't even know what I just said...holy crap, what am I doing high at work!! :lol:
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rockmx
Jun 23, 2003, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: i'm not telling you how to behave. however i am saying that your behaviour may have immediate consequences for people around you and and long term effects on all of us. So i'm speaking out against your behaviour. What you do does matter to me. if you don't like living in a society where people have responsibility to one another i would suggest afghanistan or iraq. in those places there is lawlessness and anarchy. perfect for you (apolgies to people in those place--he'd only make your lives worse). nor is this to say that i am perfect. i behave in ways that are 'bad', but i don't brag about it, i would like to stop doing those things, i don't rationalise the behaviours and i'm not proud of them.
AMEN!!!
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anothertucsonclimber
Jun 23, 2003, 9:37 PM
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I agree - BUT , when those actions impact others - you need to think a little more. If you want to drink and climb - fine with me. Just keep it to yourself and make DAMN sure that it doesn't drag anyone else into it.
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mhr2000
Jun 23, 2003, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: I look over the location of you uber-experienced climbers who live in meccas like Evansville, Indiana. Used to go to school there. Go Mater Dei wrestling. Climbing??? Me thinks not.
How does my location have to do with anything? Whatever man!
In reply to: Whoever tried to call me out about the one drink thing...quite literally YES, if you can't keep your poop in a scoop after just one drink, then NO you wouldn't ever find yourself tied in with me. Does this mean we have to always drink (and in reality rarely do) before climbing. Heck no. But it does say something about your character.
Yes I called you out about the one drink!
How does ones character have anything to do with something they cannot control like alcohol once it's in the body? Again... whatever man!
My main point was to find out if you extended your "get lost" attitude to include non-drinkers in with those who can't handle as much as you.
Party on!
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czarcastic
Jun 23, 2003, 9:49 PM
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Anothertucsonclimber: So are you saying that if someone is stupid enough to tie their knot wrong, then climb and hurt themselves, its wrong drag you into it? Personally I agree with not wanting other peoples problems dropped in your lap, expecially when you don't agree with the behaviour that got them there. But you feel just as strongly about people drinking as I do about people not climbing safely, but yet I wouldn't expect those inexperienced people to not drag me into it if something happened. Again its a judgement call and if I you don't want people involving you in their bad judgements, you might want to give up climbing, or find a crag thats in a bubble. (if you find that crag, please let me know as the rain the weekends has been crap)
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alpinestylist
Jun 23, 2003, 9:55 PM
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MHR...I used your geographic location to indicate you can't climb too much...go ahead and tell me how you get rad at the red. In the world I live in people bag pitches every day, lots of them, strictly for training benefit or maybe just for fun. Everyday people I know are crushing things, everyday busta! This is the point of view I write from, climbing isn't something you do when you can get someone to sit for the kids, you want to look cool for your new girlfriend, or finally get one weekend out of two months, it is a way of life practiced everyday.
My perspective is probably drastically different from yours. I scare people like you at the crag. We are both allowed to go on living.
I think the one drink and composure analogy tells a lot more about your point in life than it does about your climbing.
One beer man?? come on...maybe if you are virginal and holy and what not then you can say you don't drink beer. But anyone I know worth their mud can drink one beer and do ANYTHING...I learned this when I was sixteen.
Any 2 bit climber that has gone more than a week without a shower, rode tripped, made their own retreat anchor, lead a pitch or whatever can flipping drink one beer.
Eminem says it best "you little girls, why do you act this way?"
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gretchino
Jun 23, 2003, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: This is the point of view I write from, climbing isn't something you do when you can get someone to sit for the kids, you want to look cool for your new girlfriend, or finally get one weekend out of two months, it is a way of life practiced everyday. My perspective is probably drastically different from yours. I scare people like you at the crag. We are both allowed to go on living."
Good grief man...no need to get snippy. This thread obviously irked you pretty well, we get it. :shock:
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hammer_
Jun 23, 2003, 10:08 PM
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This thead is great reading keep it up! LOL
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thedesertnomad
Jun 23, 2003, 10:20 PM
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It seems that I am finally in the majority on something... lol I find it to be a rather bad choice of what to do. First... the dieretic factor alone is a bad thing. Especially in the summer, you get dehydrated and it clearly will hurt your climbing. Secondly, ONE beer (or drink) most assuradly lessens your reaction time. I want to be at my BEST when I am climbing and don't want ANYTHING to slow me down or confuse me. I know lots of people who climb high. Just not for me... with some of the stupid things I have done buzzed (in one way or another) I would NOT want to be hanging 200+ feet off the ground when those mistakes caught up with me. To each their own I suppose, but damn !!!!!
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watersprite
Jun 23, 2003, 10:27 PM
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it's affected, not effected, dumb ass!
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fredbob
Jun 23, 2003, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the climber who likes to have a beer at lunch while at the crags, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a beer drinker.
Then they came for the climber who likes a puff or two while at the crags, and I didn't speak up cause I don't smoke weed.
In reply to: Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak for me.
In reply to: if you don't like living in a society where people have responsibility to one another i would suggest afghanistan or iraq. in those places there is lawlessness and anarchy.
Seems that the US brought lawlessness and anarchy to Iraq. And exactly what is the relationship between the state of affairs in those countries and people being responsible to one another?
BTW, some climbers seem to relax a bit and climb more "fluidly" with a beer or two. Powered By Old English (11c/d) at Josh was apparently only redpointed after a can or two of that somewhat vile brand (IMHO) of malt.
To each their own.
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apolobamba
Jun 23, 2003, 11:33 PM
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Climbing is something you do when
1. You can get someone to sit for the kids
2. You want to look cool for your new girlfriend (I have done stupider things so why not)
3. Get one weekend out of two months
During one part of your life, you can climb everyday. The next part of your life, you are making the most of the time you got. There is no need for that elitist crap.
Someone out there right now is feeling superior to you because of his doily collection.
“………a hero to most/ But he never meant sh!t to me”
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crazeeclimber
Jun 24, 2003, 12:21 AM
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i witnessed 2 very serious accidents that occured at a climbing gym i worked at... :(
1) a friend of mine was having a party there and was drunk and soloed the back overhang, fell and nearly broke his neck. he came out with a jarred back and knee. had to have physio for 4 weeks.
2) these guys came in and had been drinking, the belayer had more to drink than the climb (who i knew and only had one beer) and the climber fell and the belayer (being tipsy) didn't catch him in time and the climber broke his wrist and now has a perminant plate in his wrist.
so i'd save the drinks till after climbing as it is a terrible thing to witness and an even terrible thing to be involved in. if something little goes wrong it can end up as a major accident.
climb safe and rock on.
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curt
Jun 24, 2003, 12:36 AM
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Well, from my personal perspective there is a huge difference between:
1) Having a beer or two and then climbing.
and
2) Being drunk and then climbing.
The first I do on a regualar basis--and the second I would never do. It appears as though many of the responses here do not make any differentiation between these two quite different situations.
Curt
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onelung
Jun 24, 2003, 1:08 AM
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That is indeed a point that so many are missing.
Damn I hauled 120 Tecate's up to the base of Zodiac. Then my bud rapped, hitched a ride to the village and back then jummared 7 pitches with a case on his back. Hilarious! and thirst quenching.
Its all good, Lets keep the thread alive!
bill
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muncher
Jun 24, 2003, 1:20 AM
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Just to keep things going.
What bugs me is how many people say they smoke a few spliffs at the crag or boulders. Why the f would you want to do that, bongs are so much better.
I frequently, but not always have a few puffs before getting on a climb or going surfing. As has been stated before, noone is trying to say that that it is great to get totally wasted and going climbing but that just having a little can be fine. I rarely drink these days and it has never crossed my mind to drink at the crag but if people can do it sensibly then so be it. as to smoking pot before climbing, if I can go surfing after having a few bongs I can certaily climb safely. Surfing fast sucky waves requires much faster reflexes and reaction times than belaying.
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whistleblower
Jun 24, 2003, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is the point of view I write from, climbing isn't something you do when you can get someone to sit for the kids, you want to look cool for your new girlfriend, or finally get one weekend out of two months, it is a way of life practiced everyday. My perspective is probably drastically different from yours. I scare people like you at the crag. We are both allowed to go on living." Good grief man...no need to get snippy. This thread obviously irked you pretty well, we get it. :shock:
Gretchino, if you knew how tough and good a climber AlpineStylist is, you'd understand.
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whistleblower
Jun 24, 2003, 1:57 AM
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In reply to: Why are you contriving this connection between drinking a beer or two (or burning some fat dank) and climbing, and accidents at the crags, when it is in fact the stone-sober folks who fall to the ground and go "boom" 99.999% of the time? (Buzzer sounds) Sorry, nice try, wrong answer.
And...
In reply to: And again I say that you better stop hanging around with that non-drinking, non-pot-smoking crowd, bro... they seem to be the ones that die by the dozens, while climbing, rapping, and hiking in or out, every year, from Iowa to Everest.....
This is the most absurd logic I've EVER heard. Hilarious!
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mhr2000
Jun 24, 2003, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: Gretchino, if you knew how tough and good a climber AlpineStylist is, you'd understand.
I know that remark was not aimed at me, but I will respond. I don't give a crap how good a climber AlpineStylist is because it still doesn't make him a better person then anyone else. I could care less if he drinks an entire keg of beer before he climbs that's his business. I'm just absolutely shocked at his idiotic statements that just because somebody can't handle one beer or chooses not to drink makes them some kind of loser. I think only a true loser would say and believe such a thing.
AlpineStylist... party on busta, you da man homy!
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whistleblower
Jun 24, 2003, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gretchino, if you knew how tough and good a climber AlpineStylist is, you'd understand. I know that remark was not aimed at me, but I will respond. I don't give a crap how good a climber AlpineStylist is because it still doesn't make him a better person then anyone else. I could care less if he drinks an entire keg of beer before he climbs that's his business. I'm just absolutely shocked at his idiotic statements that just because somebody can't handle one beer or chooses not to drink makes them some kind of loser. I think only a true loser would say and believe such a thing. AlpineStylist... party on busta, you da man homy!
LOL... You're right MHR, I recant. I happen to have a lot of respect for AlpineStylist's ascents... however, I wouldn't climb with him - I just wouldn't feel safe =)
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ronamick
Jun 24, 2003, 2:11 AM
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All boulderers in the know are aware that beer is a valuable training aid.
Beer hydrates, provides nutrients and carbohydrates, and when taken properly gives one the gumption to make it up problems otherwise impossible.
Please note that beer applications for bouldering are not the same as for roped climbing!! Best to be on your toes when handling the rope, and the brewer's advice to "drink responsibly" is the rule of thumb for climbs involving ropes and gear.
San Diego boulderers have always made a six pack as much a part of their essential gear as their chalk bag, and beer has figured in the first ascent of many, if not most of our best problems!
I attribute my 150-odd FA's in San Diego County to a hearty regimen of beer and hostess fruit pies. Often, while working out a difficult new problem, deep in some god forsaken and brush choked ravine, I have rested for one final hurrah- and to give that 5th beer a chance to kick in- then topped out on that baby and sent it home to mama.
Now, even the most experienced boulderer doesn't just slam a sixer and go jump on the rock. Everyone will develop their own beer and bouldering protocol, but here is how I ride the beer train to glory.
The first beer is the quencher. It is consumed only after you get to where you are going to climb, and never on the way. The second beer is the primer. It is typically opened after the shoes and chalkbag are on, and the clothing adjusted for climbing. This beer may be carried along as you boulder, but be aware that a carried beer quickly loses its fizz! Best to finish it while it still has its zip, and the empty can be tossed back to the vicinity of your packs.
Beers 3 & 4 are the "meat and potato" beers, the ones that will propel a cagey climber to glory, but their consumption must be metered carefully!
Drink them too quickly and you will be worthlessly alcohol impaired, as well as winding up short at day's end.
Me and my friends space the beers by declaring that a certain number of problems must be climbed before cracking another cylinder, unless it's a hot day, when one sweats out the effects of alcohol almost immediately.
If done properly, beer #4 should put you near the end of the day, and with a full head of steam. A fistfull of asprin at the beginning of the day will make sure that any minor tweaks and aches go unnoticed at this point
(an 800mg dose of asprin or ibuprofin is perfect for me, younger climbers will want a little less).
Now is the time to tackle that nemesis- not in a drunken stupor, but riding the crest of a carefully tuned alcohol swell. Still in full control, but unimpeded by paranoia and mental clutter, unhampered by minor physical dings, and with a tank full of guts and muscle just rarin' to go.
Beer 5 is the secret weapon. Blown out and still can't turn that V6 mantle? Got a palm slap that keeps on slipping when it needs to be sticking? Take a breather and savor big #5; the boulderman's boost. Drink it slowly and get recovered in the shade. Clean your shoes and visualize the sequence of the problem. Center your chi, and give it everything you got... with cylinder 5 as your co-pilot.
Beer 6 is the end of the day refreshment. Sun's nearly down, tips are fried, forearms are throbbing with 200psi of lactic acid and you are scraped from the bushes and covered with chalk. Enjoy it as you remember the day. There ya go.
Tips from the pros:
* Don't expect to beg beers from fellow climbers out in the field! Those babies are solid gold out beyond the Liquor stores' domain, so bring your own if you want 'em.
* Forget coolers and fancy crap. Learn to love 'em warm.
* Go by the "tip & guzzle" rule. Knock over a beer and you are required to grab it and chug it down ON THE SPOT. Keeps tip-overs to a minimum, and keeps tipped ones from being wasted.
* Don't let an open beer sit around! It'll go flat and collect bugs. If you aren't ready for it, don't pop the top.
* Pack out every can. Don't litter.
* Fer chrissakes finish the thing. Don't put it down with a little left. It's only backwash if you nurse the last inch too long. Drain that punk as part of a hearty tug.
* Go for the gold.
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curt
Jun 24, 2003, 2:17 AM
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Ron,
That's exactly what I wanted to write above, but just didn't have the energy.
Curt
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hammer_
Jun 24, 2003, 2:34 AM
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I too climb more than I work and yes,it does become a lifestyle. Every once in a while i'll run across a guy like you ,Alpinestylest, and have to give a little chuckle. After all their experience and mini-epics they still don't truely know what climbing is all about. As for the drinking thing, sure I don't see the harm in having a swig or two of whisky and a colt at the top of a long a difficult route in celibration, moderation is the key thats all.
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oldandintheway
Jun 24, 2003, 2:40 AM
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Drinking while climbing? No thanks except while ascending Barstool Mtn. Back at camp fine. On route? No way.
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dingus
Jun 24, 2003, 4:00 AM
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In reply to: All boulderers in the know are aware that beer is a valuable training aid.
Ron, that was beautiful man. I almost had a tear in my eye as I read that. I have a lone bottle of some mexican beer in my fridge, left over from the weekend. Reckon I'll go drink it and think of fond bouldering days gone by.
Here's to your 'better bouldering through beer' regime.
(don't forget the bic my man)
DMT
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jefffski
Jun 24, 2003, 4:28 AM
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Although some comments here have been less than helpful, others, even from those i don't agree with motivated me to do some research on the effects of light drinking--as has been described.
i've included all the websites i've visited. all of them are bonafide sites.
First of all you might want to calculate your BAC, that is blood alcohol concentration. this is related to your weight. Then consider at which point impairment kicks in. it's not .08. If you climb soon after a full beer,enter 0.5 hours.
As well consider tolerance, as so many of you claim to have. but functional tolerance, as you may read below, is not the same as measurable motor impairment.
finally does alcohol reduce stress? The conclusions here are surprising.
The results can be seen as slightly ambiguous. So i ask you--since climbing is an inherently risky activity, i hope we would all agree, why potentially (i use that word carefully because some of you will argue that the studies don't appply to you-but they might!), add to that risk by consuming any alcohol?
My conclusion is that even if you are a "good" drinker, and can put away lots before you get "drunk", in all liklihood you are impaired well before you feel its effects.
To measure your BAC
http://inquirer.philly.com/specials/2002/dui/bac.asp
Specific Effects(related to the Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC)
http://www.indiana.edu/~adic/effects.html
The effects of alcohol intoxication are greatly influenced by individual variations among users. Some users may become intoxicated at a much lower Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) level than is shown.
0.02-0.03 BAC: No loss of coordination, slight euphoria and loss of shyness. Depressant effects are not apparent.
0.04-0.06 BAC: Feeling of well-being, relaxation, lower inhibitions, sensation of warmth. Euphoria. Some minor impairment of reasoning and memory, lowering of caution.
0.07-0.09 BAC: Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgement and self- control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired.
0.10-0.125 BAC: Significant impairment of motor coordination and loss of good judgement. Speech may be slurred; balance, vision, reaction time and hearing will be impaired. Euphoria. It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle at this level of intoxication.
0.13-0.15 BAC: Gross motor impairment and lack of physical control. Blurred vision and major loss of balance. Euphoria is reduced and dysphoria is beginning to appear.
0.16-0.20 BAC: Dysphoria (anxiety, restlessness) predominates, nausea may appear. The drinker has the appearance of a "sloppy drunk."
0.25 BAC: Needs assistance in walking; total mental confusion. Dysphoria with nausea and some vomiting.
0.30 BAC: Loss of consciousness.
0.40 BAC and up: Onset of coma, possible death due to respiratory arrest.
Functional Tolerance
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa28.htm
Humans and animals develop tolerance when their brain functions adapt to compensate for the disruption caused by alcohol in both their behavior and their bodily functions. This adaptation is called functional tolerance (2). Chronic heavy drinkers display functional tolerance when they show few obvious signs of intoxication even at high blood alcohol concentrations (BAC's), which in others would be incapacitating or even fatal (3). Because the drinker does not experience significant behavioral impairment as a result of drinking, tolerance may facilitate the consumption of increasing amounts of alcohol. This can result in physical dependence and alcohol-related organ damage.
However, functional tolerance does not develop at the same rate for all alcohol effects (4-6). Consequently, a person may be able to perform some tasks after consuming alcohol while being impaired in performing others. In one study, young men developed tolerance more quickly when conducting a task requiring mental functions, such as taking a test, than when conducting a task requiring eye-hand coordination (4), such as driving a car. Development of tolerance to different alcohol effects at different rates also can influence how much a person drinks. Rapid development of tolerance to unpleasant, but not to pleasurable, alcohol effects could promote increased alcohol consumption (7).
Motor skill impairment
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa16.htm
Motor vehicle crashes. While there is some evidence to suggest that low blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) bear little relationship to road crashes, impairment of driving-related skills by alcohol has been found to begin at 0.05 percent BAC or lower, with rapidly progressing deterioration as the BAC rises (22). A man weighing 140 pounds might attain a BAC of 0.05 percent after two drinks
Does Drinking Reduce or Induce Stress?
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa32.htm
Some studies have reported that acute exposure to low doses of alcohol may reduce the response to a stressor in animals and humans. For example, low doses of alcohol reduced the stress response in rats subjected to strenuous activity in a running wheel (3). In humans, a low dose of alcohol improved performance of a complex mental problem-solving task under stressful conditions (3). However , in some individuals, at certain doses, alcohol may induce rather than reduce the body's stress response (16).
Much research demonstrates that alcohol actually induces the stress response by stimulating hormone release by the hypothalamus, pituitary, and adrenal glands (4,6,17,). This finding has been demonstrated in animal studies. In one study with rats, the administration of alcohol initiated the physiological stress response, measured by increased levels of corticosterone (19). In addition to stimulating the hormonal stress response, chronic exposure to alcohol also results in an increase in adrenaline (20).
More on motor skills and impairment
http://www.silcom.com/~sbadp/effects/bac.htm
In a reveiw of studies of alcohol-related crashes, reaction time, tracking ability, concentrated attention ability, divided attention performance, information process capability, visual functions, perceptions, and psycho-motor performance, impairment i n all these areas was significant at blood concentrations of 0.05 percent. Impairement first appeared in many of these important areas of performance at blood alcohol concentrations of 0.02 percent, substantially below the legal standard in most States f or drunkenness, which is 0.08 percent.
conclusions
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa25.htm
Results of epidemiologic and experimental studies permit certain conclusions to be drawn. First, the degree of impairment depends on the complexity of the task involved as well as the BAC (1). Second, the magnitude of alcohol-induced impairment rises as BAC increases and dissipates as alcohol is eliminated from the body. Third, at a given BAC, some skills are more impaired than others (12). Finally, investigators have not found an absolute BAC threshold below which there is no impairment of any kind. Certain skills important for driving are impaired at 0.01 to 0.02 percent BAC, the lowest levels that can be measured reliably by commonly used devices (17).
hope this has been helpful information. btw, i love good beer-especially after a hard day of climbing or a week on a cold mountain.
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jefffski
Jun 24, 2003, 4:30 AM
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note: all comments below web addresses are direct quotes from those sites.
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cologman
Jun 24, 2003, 4:30 AM
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Ahem... I'm one of those who has drank more than I've worked, worked more I've climbed, climbed more more than I drank, and partook more than I worked. Anyway you get the picture. After all this and and a good many other vises not PC I find I'm still alive. One of the more recent manifestations of the current day Rock-No Phobe is the everpresent sense of responsibility for every one elses safety. F**k I do this to be on my own and take control of my own moment. I really don't need someone else telling me they think I'm out of my mind to have a beer before coffee or place that alien in that flaring pocket. Now while I don't in my current regime imbibe or partake I do relish the many fond memories of past odysseys. So give it break folks and get back to climbing, with or without your PBR and Red Bull! :roll:
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climbzdrunk
Jun 24, 2003, 5:01 AM
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I've got news for you amateurs:
Beer Ain't drinkin'!!
8)
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pehperboy
Jun 24, 2003, 5:07 AM
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As said in a previous post, this isn't about Mormonizing climbing. To repeat what a good number of others have said, imbibe/partake if you wish - moderately before or get wasted after - but climbing drunk/stoned creates a whole lot of potential problems.
Sure cologman, enjoy the moment on your own. But if some drunk and/or doped up dufus causes a serious injury to him or herself or someone else there are inescapable consequences. Someone (usually the sober ones at the crag) have to assist in in a rescue and then THEY are put at some risk. And then if it's particularly serious, like a fatality, The Man comes around and starts asking questions. That can have a serious outcome.
To list a few: possible closure of a good crag, criminal charges, a big fat lawsuit, new laws get passed about climbing, life insurance for anyone involved in climbing becomes either more ridiculously expensive or impossilbe to get, publicity makes all climbers look like drunk/stoned irresponsible yahoos and I'm sure there are others.
So, if a climber wants to drink that's his or her business. If they want to climb drunk or stoned that DOES become the business of the sober people they are climbing with. There are too many good reasons not to climb with someone all messed up on drink or dope.
There's been talk about the "good old days" when before big walls became popular climbers would hoist up loads of drink, get gunned, have a more than a few splifs on the home made portaledge, puke it all out and the finish the routes we all now take for granted. Have to wonder where climbing would be now if that's the sort of activity that defined the sport.
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rockclimber_gurl
Jun 24, 2003, 5:09 AM
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you should have an edge when you climb! :wink:
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onelung
Jun 24, 2003, 6:25 AM
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Hey there has been some barely decent points made by all..... but as I read I started to ask ....How many non-juice boys are trad or aid climbers? I will bet that most all non drinking/climbing folk are sport climbers? and thats fine...its our own choice to make.
Am I wrong?
Boulder folks do some pretty awesome crap, Sport fellas are safe. I'll bet most anti juice posters on this thread are sport fellas. Sure there may be one that isnt.....naw I doubt it.
Its all good,
bill
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sharpender
Jun 24, 2003, 7:07 AM
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Ya gotta love it. Drinken and climben, smoken n climben. My experience is limited here, The only time I've ever mixed the two was.... woah right there - the beers stay in the cooler till the craggin's done. Back in the good old days there were two climbers we called the AA boys on accounta they both had last names that started with A, but I kinda wondered if Alchoholics Anonymous didn't figure in somehow cause on a hot day they'd set their cans of Anheiser Bush down and power over some 5.11 mantle. Awesome. But the funniest thing I ever saw was the two guys on top rope that took a toke break. They went back to climben and the guy on the line suddenly went, "Woah, I forgot to tie back in." He He. Dumb stoned shits. Lucky, he was only two moves off the ground. Chemical impairment is about as smart on the rock as it is on a motorcylce - that killed my brother in law. I'm a trad guy but I hold my water for after climbing :roll:
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ajkclay
Jun 24, 2003, 2:32 PM
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I don't think that this is a thread about tee-totalling, it's more about knowing when [brown]it's appropriate to drink etc. [/brown]
There is a time and a place for [cyan]everything, and climbing isn't the time to drink.[/cyan](not before or during anyway)
If you have to drink then climb, maybe you aren't getting the same levelof enjoyment from it as those who don't have to.
Or maybe you are scared sh*tless, [brown]and need the Dutch courage, [/brown]dunno, it's just a theory...... :roll:
PS If you aren't seeing[cyan] this in black,[/cyan] are not in a sober or straight enough state of mind to reply to thisor any other topic :P
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cologman
Jun 24, 2003, 3:16 PM
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Well, pepherboy the sermonizing doesn't play well here. I wouldn't personally put myself in a position of climbing with someone I suspected of being less than sharp. This doesn't mean I wouldn't take the assistance of an Alpinesytlist or any number of other Blokes who may or may not have had a beer/s in the last 12 - 24 or less and feel far safer than 90% of the posters on this site. That doesn't mean those 90% aren't capable it just means some people are exceedingly capable. Personally one of the things I think our society has faltered on in the last 50 years or so and certainly the last 25 is the need to take every issue to an extreme. Resulting in over regulation, over litigation and less personal freedom. By simply beating the bandwagon on issues of this type we as a people have brought nearly every issue we have confronted to the point of legislation, simply because the fervor of the moment carries away our desire to protect our personal freedoms in the supposed name of everyone elses greater good. Sure having a beer or two while climbing isn't the smartest move but then I suspect there are any number of you naysayers who have stepped across one of our societal lines at one time or another. Are you ostericised because of it, hell no. Get a life, and I'll hang with the BBR.
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flamer
Jun 24, 2003, 3:24 PM
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forget it....
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pehperboy
Jun 24, 2003, 3:28 PM
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And just who's preaching to who here?
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czarcastic
Jun 24, 2003, 3:40 PM
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Ron that was the funniest post I have read in awhile, thanks for taking the time to make me laugh my a__ off. We have a pretty similar ritual when my friends and I boulder, too fuuny!!
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cologman
Jun 24, 2003, 3:49 PM
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You're right, touche'
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bdawg
Jun 24, 2003, 3:52 PM
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Ron, you have an awesome style of writing, that post was awesome.
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watersprite
Jun 24, 2003, 5:33 PM
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and please DO patronize the micro breweries - Boont is good, Red Hook - Fat Weasel, anything with an eagle or a bear on it...
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socalseeker
Jun 24, 2003, 6:27 PM
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CHICKEN SOUP FOR THE BEER DRINKER
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel shamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
~ Jack Handy
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"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. "
~Frank Sinatra
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"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."
~ Henny Youngman
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"24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? I think not."
~ Stephen Wright
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"When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asleep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. Sooooo, let's all get drunk and go to heaven!"
~ Brian O'Rourke
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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
~ Benjamin Franklin
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"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza."
~ Dave Barry
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BEER: HELPING UGLY PEOPLE HAVE SEX SINCE 3000 B.C.!!!
~ "Unknown"
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Remember "I" before "E", except in Budweiser.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To some it's a six-pack, to me it's a Support Group. Salvation in a can!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And saving the best for last, as explained by Cliff Clavin, of Cheers. One afternoon at Cheers, Cliff Clavin was explaining the Buffalo Theory to his buddy Norm. Here's how it went:
"Well ya see, Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers."
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alpinestylist
Jun 24, 2003, 9:57 PM
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I have little more to say in regards to this...
Ron...classic, preach the word
anyone that has an opinion about me, my proficiency or lack there of is totally entitled to it.
Who was the dude that said I haven't figured out climbing????
Anyone who has please enlighten me.
I firmly stand behind my personal partner standard of holding it together with one beer in you.
Anyone out there ever heard of Jim Belcer, first american to climb V10.
He could write an encyclopedia on drinking and climbing.
I'm curious for someone else to try and tell me how to live my life.
I would like to say I'll see you out there, but with few exceptions I doubt I will meet any of you.
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dingus
Jun 24, 2003, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: I'm curious for someone else to try and tell me how to live my life.
Have a good time all the time.
DMT
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photon
Jun 24, 2003, 10:21 PM
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"Anyone out there ever heard of Jim Belcer, first american to climb V10.
He could write an encyclopedia on drinking and climbing. "
was Jim Holloway a commie or something? Yeah I heard o him and saw him in Hueco about 8 years ago or so, never saw him drinking while/before bouldering though.
While it's no secret that people often drink before/during aid climbing and "perform" well (80 year old guys have done el cap) I have yet to see anyone FREE climb better after drinking. So from a performance aspect it's a joke if your trying to push yourself.
I don't personally climb with people who drink before/while climbing-- never met anyone that wanted/needed to that I deemed partner worthy.
Afterwards is another story.
As for weed -- is that still considered a drug?
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alpinestylist
Jun 24, 2003, 11:05 PM
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cheers DMT!
indeed, words to live by
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vegastradguy
Jun 24, 2003, 11:18 PM
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good lord, that's just what I need from my belayer, slow reaction time.
:roll:
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flamer
Jun 25, 2003, 1:02 AM
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photon,
Dude! Jim Belcer is the king of climbing after drinking! And I'm not talking about one beer.....
Keep talking trash to Alpinestylist....you guys (who have no clue) are making me laugh my ass off!!
Carry on Brent....
josh
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photon
Jun 25, 2003, 4:44 AM
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like i said he didn't get drunk before bouldering when I WAS around him . If you are assuming I'm talking about now, I have no freaking clue if the guy has a liver or not? Haven't seen him/heard anything about him in years. I have no trouble believing he drinks and then climbs most likely at a high level in both senses. A while ago, before now, in the past, priorly, he was trying (it seemed) to climb as hard as he could. Drinking a lot of beer and sustained athletic performance go together about as much as this site and Lox.
But anyway, pick a few words out of a post and then arrange them in your head however you like, make some assumptions, then have a beer or six, things are start making sense now huh
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 25, 2003, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why are you contriving this connection between drinking a beer or two (or burning some fat dank) and climbing, and accidents at the crags, when it is in fact the stone-sober folks who fall to the ground and go "boom" 99.999% of the time? (Buzzer sounds) Sorry, nice try, wrong answer. And... In reply to: And again I say that you better stop hanging around with that non-drinking, non-pot-smoking crowd, bro... they seem to be the ones that die by the dozens, while climbing, rapping, and hiking in or out, every year, from Iowa to Everest..... This is the most absurd logic I've EVER heard. Hilarious!
Absurd, hilarious and for the most part True
For one thing there is a difference between drinkers that climb and climbers that drink.
For another I agree with not wanting to rope up with someone who couldn't climb safely after drinking a beer, they don't have to drink but they do have to be capable of behaving responsibly after a drink.
As far as Jim being a role model of drinking and climbing, hardly, he would be better off if he didn't drink at all. He can drink and climb hard but he still climbs harder when he is not drinking. Besides that he is probably the safest person I have ever climbed with.
I find it amusing that so many "actually unsafe" sober climbers get on a high horse and object on principle to people that can climb and drink/smoke safely. A big part of climbing safely is being able to cope with less than ideal circumstances, in that sense drinking and climbing is good practice.
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jefffski
Jun 25, 2003, 7:18 AM
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earlier someone said that having a beer helped him climb routes that he would not have been able to climb without that beer. he's probably right. beer might help.
alcohol works on our brain by reducing inhibition. fueled with alcohol we are more likely to strike up a conversation with the babe over there, or to try a move on a problem that we would normally would be afraid (inhibited) to try. it helps break down our resistance. much research is currently ongoing into the cause of these effects.
for some of us, and i don't mean all, one reason we revel in climbing is doing something hard, maybe barely possible for us. to do that hard move may require getting past a fear or a hangup or a belief that we are not capable of pulling it off.
beer can help overcome that inhibition.
but, for me, climbing is about many things, one of them being putting myself in a hard place and succeeding. i don't want any help doing that. i want to be completely present, learning about my potential. if i don't succeed it is because i am not ready, either mentally or physically.
for those of you who 'need' to climb with a little 'glow on', i would suggest that you are missing one of the greatest parts of climbing.
thanks for this, mostly, interesting thread.
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overlord
Jun 25, 2003, 12:27 PM
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but it is a proven fact that alcohol increases your reaction time. i was on a presentation where you could play a computer game. it was basicly a driving game, you get to drive a car on streets, but the catch is they can alter the reaction time of the controls.
so first you try with controls lag=0 and you can drive just fine. than they alter it to gat the treaction time you have WHEN UNDER THE LEGAL LIMIT and suddenly you cant drive at all. oh, jeah you still can drive the staight line and noncomplicated manuvers, but as soon as something unpredictable happens, you cant really react. i could also drive when im drunk, but if somebody happened to jum on the street or something... i would be unable to react in time.
and there was also a german study of how alochol affects driving skills. they took a group of 10 males and 10 females and drove them through the obstacle course (some zigzaging, emergency braking, car control on slippery grounds). they made their firs run when sober, nobody had any problems. note that they didnt know the course. when they were done, their results were recorded.
then each got to drikn a beer and wait 10 mins for it to kick in. and theygot to drive through the same course again (note that they knew the course now). their reactions were considerately lower, they couldnt brake in time, they couldnt control their car on the slippery course, but they could still zigzag just fine. and after 3 beer none of them could zigzag any more.
so if alcohol lowers your reaction time and coordination (zigzagin, partially car control) how can it possibly improve your climbing. yes, it gives you the courage to make that move.
but if you dont have the guts to do the move sober, you shouldnt be doing it. like you dont have the guts to talk to that attractive female.
dont get me wrong, i drink, but i never drink before climbing or driving, it has got something to do with responsibility. to yourself and to everyone around you. and try to reason that youre not resposible for that kid you ran over or you partne whose brain is all over the rocks because you were druk.
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dead_milkman
Jun 25, 2003, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: so first you try with controls lag=0 and you can drive just fine. than they alter it to gat the treaction time you have WHEN UNDER THE LEGAL LIMIT and suddenly you cant drive at all.
I recently attended a conference in which Kurt Dubowski, the "father" of breath alcohol analysis, gave a couple of talks... As I understand it, the reason that US and Canadian courts set .08 (or .10) as legal limits is due more to prosecution issues (as the prosecution is bound to show evidence that an *individual* was impaired at time of arrest). That is, since alcohol uptake... and impairment... follows a roughly Gaussian distibution over a population, ca. half of the population will actually be impaired at .04 and on up to 99% of the population at .08. That said, some people (some!) can have remarkably high blood/breath alcohol levels and *not* be impared, while others... well, not so much. All told, when it comes to climbing anyhow, is that one should know one's limits. Must of us can function just fine after a couple of beer... Those of you who jump on people for imbibing have a simple choice: climb with them or don't.
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catra
Jun 25, 2003, 6:38 PM
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I don't agree with it......Don't drink and drive, so I wouldn't drink and climb!!!!
Well I must admit...I don't drink or do drugs at all....Yesterday it was 8 years since I touched either..
Just my opinion...
Cheers,
Catra
http://www.rocknrun.net
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ronamick
Jun 25, 2003, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: I love all these holier than thou people who say "you give climbers a bad name" FU buddy! I give a F*CK weather or not you like me? I've met some great friends through climbing and most if not all drink and smoke and climb and we all have a blast giving climbers a bad name. what a joke. its people like you Jeffski that give climbers a bad name, quick to judge and care to much about what others think about you. and if I did have a dog I'd train him to sh*t on your rope.
I gotta throw in with my man here. Climbers a bad name? Foolish youth.
Climbers began wuth a bad name. Back in the day we were a fringe element, puzzling and scary to the average Joe. Ask any icon of our sport, from Royal Robbins to our own Mr. John Gill. Pillars of society? Absolutely. Were they viewed as such back in their climbing heyday?
Ask 'em your self.
Make sure that's a big dog Jeff-o, and feed him well.
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ronamick
Jun 25, 2003, 10:57 PM
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correction: make sure that it's a big dog that squats on Jeff-o's rope!
Haw haw haw! You want to see a body give climbers a bad name? Hang around with some real climbers for once!
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ronamick
Jun 25, 2003, 11:01 PM
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In reply to: I don't think that this is a thread about tee-totalling, it's more about knowing when [brown]it's appropriate to drink etc. [/brown] There is a time and a place for [cyan]everything, and climbing isn't the time to drink.[/cyan](not before or during anyway)
If you have to drink then climb, maybe you aren't getting the same levelof enjoyment from it as those who don't have to.
Or maybe you are scared sh*tless, [brown]and need the Dutch courage, [/brown]dunno, it's just a theory...... :roll:
PS If you aren't seeing[cyan] this in black,[/cyan] are not in a sober or straight enough state of mind to reply to thisor any other topic :P
what in hell he sayin? I say he queer!
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retrock
Jun 26, 2003, 12:49 AM
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My personal experence with climbing is that it provides an enviorment that gives me a high. I don't know if I would ever trust the imparied abilitys of someone who is under the influence.
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ajkclay
Jun 26, 2003, 1:09 AM
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what he be saying (with some humour thrown in) be this:
I drink.
I climb.
I do not drink and climb.
Drinking reduces sporting performance. don't give any bullsh*t about it affect people differently, we all have the same physiology, so you are affected to a significant degree, whether you are affected as much as someone else is immaterial, the effect is significant for all people.
Drinking also reduces reaction time. Same story.
Drinking can give a false sense of courage.
If you drink and it helps yiou to get up a route you couldn't do before, then it is probably because you are scared and couldn't get up it without the "Dutch Courage" in which case, alcohol is a performance enhancing substance for you and as far as I'm concerned, you aren't doing it on your own merits.
Not queer, just talking on a level you couldn't understand.
Drink up, then reply. :)
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jefffski
Jun 26, 2003, 7:06 AM
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IT’S NOT ABOUT THE BEER
Later this summer I will attempt to climb the Split Pillar on the Grand Wall in Squamish. It is the quintessential climb on the Chief (imho). Rated 10b, many climbers say it has a feel at least two grades higher. The climb consists of 40m of strenuous laybacking and jamming with no rests. Only the very best climb it without a hang.
Will I be ready for this? When I get to its base I will be trembling with fear and excitement. I await the moment, but I’m nervous.
Do I have the strength, the endurance and the skill to send it? What if I fail? Will I fall and maybe get injured? Will I have to hangdog my way up, thereby losing the essence of the climb?
When I have finished the climb, I will gasp my way onto the top, clip the bolts, call secure and then let out a sigh of relief, of joy and of satisfaction. I will gaze out across Howe Sound and down to the ant sized people below who will never get to that magical place. The moment will be mine. I will have had the strength, the endurance and the skill to have sent it. I will have kept my fear and doubts at bay by having focused on the task at hand at each and every moment. I will have lived and been more alive than at other time in my life.
It will be my moment.
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gjdesormeauxii
Jun 26, 2003, 11:22 AM
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In reply to: Im not saying I get drunk while I climb, there is a big difference between a drunken stooper and a warm glow. I guess its just being able to know your own limits. What about smoking herb and climbnig? I suppose you guys frown upon that as well. Dont knock it till you tried it.
Climbing intoxicated is excessively stupid. Poor judgement, bad reactions, reduced control, etc., etc., etc.. Now, as far as not knocking it till I tried it, well, I've never shoved a crampon up my A$$ and I don't plan to just so I can say it's a bad idea.
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ajkclay
Jun 30, 2003, 1:48 AM
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Got it right in one Jeffski.
Good luck with the Split Pillar, sounds awesome!
As you said, who needs booze to enjoy climbing?
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roninthorne
Jun 30, 2003, 2:05 AM
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So we shouldn't enjoy anything, while climbing, that affects our judgement or impairs our reason?
Damn... gotta get the time machine going, here... better head back and tell Warren to get on the wagon.... Bridewell, Long, and Westbay are gonna have to skip that whole Nose in a day thing, no "beans" allowed.... gotta get Greg Child outta his portaledge on the N Am wall... Oh, and Layton, what will we do with Layton... up there eating all that LSD and doing all that irresponsible, cutting edge aiding..... OBVIOUSLY the drink and the drugs are holding these fellows back.....
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ajkclay
Jun 30, 2003, 2:53 AM
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That's a little like saying that we shouldn't have a crack at the truckies that take drugs to stay awake while they drive for days on end because so many of them are still ok. Or that drink driving is ok because you got home last friday night while blotto.
People surviving stupidity is not a recommendation to follow suit, unless you are even more stupid.
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jefffski
Jun 30, 2003, 5:19 AM
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anybody notice that the pro-glow people have not made one cogent argument to back up their claims?
all they do is resort to anecdotal evidence.
go ahead flame away--you're just proving our points.
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rockram
Jun 30, 2003, 5:36 AM
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hmmm...i have not read one reply agreeing with vtposter retarded idea to climb while drunk. i believe it is very likely they are all dead. vtposter, you are very inconsiderate. if you want to risk your own life, light yourself on fire and jump off a bridge while holding onto a bed sheet, but don't climb drunk. that endangers not only yourself, but everyone around you. please reconsider your theory that "buzzing" helps you climb better. if you want to climb better, eating healthier and exercising more ought to do the trick.
everyone out there, climb on, and climb SAFE
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micahmcguire
Jun 30, 2003, 6:29 PM
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ever seen jackie chan's legend of the drunken master? Alcohol gives you powers! Everyone knows that!
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micahmcguire
Jun 30, 2003, 6:31 PM
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seriously though, I never climb drunk. I usually reserve that for when its wintertime and I'm confined to a bouldering gym. Then, being slightly drunk can improve my performance somewhat.
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curt
Jun 30, 2003, 6:36 PM
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In reply to: hmmm...i have not read one reply agreeing with vtposter retarded idea to climb while drunk.
Curt
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dead_milkman
Jul 1, 2003, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: anybody notice that the pro-glow people have not made one cogent argument to back up their claims? all they do is resort to anecdotal evidence.
As I previously mentioned, and perhaps you chose to ignore it before posting, there is a very predictable dose/response for individuals who imbibe alcohol. When speaking of real, measurable - not imagined by people responding to this thread - impairment, each individual will be able to take a certain dose before any takes place. Of course, this is largely dependent on body type, ingestion of food, etc. - roughly individual physiology... But the fact remains that what might affect one person to a great extent (i.e. exhibiting obvious signs of impairment) will not affect others at all. For some people, this means that they might be able to dose themselves with extremely large amounts of alcohol with no measurable physiological response. Not many people are arguing that climbing *drunk* is a good idea, but the fact remains, from a toxicological standpoint anyway, that drinking before climbing *may* have absolutly no effect, depending on the dose, of course. Since alcohol dose/response is, luckilly, extremely predictable, one might effectively predict the amount of alcohol one needs to imbibe before efficacy is shown... Not that I recommend this. Now, ethanol's euphoric effects are only one, if the most well known, of a large number of measurable effects that it produces. Ethanol is also known to have a locomotor stimulant effect as well, and this is being increasingly studied - in particular by Phillips at Oregon Health Sciences University, IIRC. At very low doses alcohol *might* act as a locomotor stimulant more than anything else (and I think this effect has been recently used to explain why some people wake up spontaneously very early in the morning after a night of drinking). For all you people listening: this is not a call to use alcohol as the new caffiene! Long story short: individual's results will vary. Now carry on...
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 6:04 AM
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In reply to: dead_milkman As I previously mentioned, and perhaps you chose to ignore it before posting, there is a very predictable dose/response for individuals who imbibe alcohol. When speaking of real, measurable - not imagined by people responding to this thread - impairment, each individual will be able to take a certain dose before any takes place. Of course, this is largely dependent on body type, ingestion of food, etc. - roughly individual physiology... But the fact remains that what might affect one person to a great extent (i.e. exhibiting obvious signs of impairment) will not affect others at all. For some people, this means that they might be able to dose themselves with extremely large amounts of alcohol with no measurable physiological response.
The research clearly shows this is wrong. while the person may feel and act soberly they do in fact show impairment in fine motor skills at the same level everybody else!
http://www.intox.com/physiology.asp.
Tolerance is the diminution of the effectiveness of a drug after a period of prolonged or heavy use of that drug or a related drug (cross-tolerance). There are two types of tolerance at work with alcohol. The first is metabolic tolerance in which the alcohol is metabolized at a higher rate (up to 72% more quickly) in chronic users. Because of the higher metabolic rate for alcohol lower peak blood alcohol concentrations are achieved by chronic alcohol users than the average drinker when the same amount of alcohol is ingested. The second is functional tolerance in which there is an actual change in the organ or system's sensitivity to the drug. Studies have shown that chronic alcohol users can have twice the tolerance for alcohol as an average person. It is important to note however that even in light of these tolerance factors, it has been shown conclusively that even in heavy alcohol users functional impairment is clearly measurable at the blood alcohol concentration levels that are currently used for traffic law enforcement and safety sensitive job performance.
there are many studies that show the same results. thanks for your anecdotal evidence.
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northshorebuds
Jul 1, 2003, 6:07 AM
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do yu visit intox.com often jeffski?
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 6:20 AM
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no, but i have read people's opinions here then went to look for information on the effects of alcohol. i visited dozens of sites, read scores of reports. I reported what i read.
If you, and others, were curious, you could easily do the same research.
I've never said that people should not drink. i have said that drinking and climbing can be dangerous and i've backed that claim up.
can you do the same for your claim? I've been looking for studies that can show it but have yet to find even one.
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northshorebuds
Jul 1, 2003, 6:21 AM
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did i have a claim???
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curt
Jul 1, 2003, 6:25 AM
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Well, I will just add this. I have been climbing for almost 25 years and have found a number of regular partners that I trust implicitly to belay me when I am climbing. I trust them if they are totally sober, if they have had a few beers, or if they have partaken in other more illicit recreational drugs. Why? Because experience tells me that I can trust them as partners. And, I am not dead yet.
I know some idiot that has learned everything they know about climbing from limited experience, books, or statistics found on the internet will comment that I have merely been lucky so far. However, good judgement comes from experience in my estimation.
A number of people have commented in this thread that they would never climb with anyone who had consumed a few beers. OK, fair enough. These people are entitled to follow their instincts. However, I am absolutely positive that these same people unknowingly put themselves at far greater risk by trusting themselves to total grommets with little experience and poor climbing judgement and they think nothing of this.
Curt
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northshorebuds
Jul 1, 2003, 6:30 AM
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very good point curt, im out, and thanks for the info 8)
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 6:35 AM
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curt, i don't deny that your partners are safe. i am saying that they are less safe when they drink and climb and that these effects are measurable.
to say that a safe climber who drinks is safer than an unsafe climber who doesn't drink is a specious argument.
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 6:38 AM
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curt, i'm sure that yur partners are all safe. but to imply that a safe climber who drinks and climbs is safer than a sober unsafe climber is a specious argument.
it's like saying that although you drink and drive and have never had an accident makes you a safe driver
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 6:41 AM
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oops. gotta stop drinking and posting
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curt
Jul 1, 2003, 6:45 AM
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In reply to: curt, i don't deny that your partners are safe. i am saying that they are less safe when they drink and climb and that these effects are measurable.
I doubt very much if what you really need to quantify in this regard is truly measurable. I have seen no alcohol related climbing safety data published.
In reply to: to say that a safe climber who drinks is safer than an unsafe climber who doesn't drink is a specious argument.
By specious, I think you mean an argument you can't win. Anyway, feel free to choose your climbing partners by whatever criteria you feel is best. In the final analysis your life depends on your judgement.
Curt
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dead_milkman
Jul 1, 2003, 6:51 AM
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In reply to: It is important to note however that even in light of these tolerance factors, it has been shown conclusively that even in heavy alcohol users functional impairment is clearly measurable at the blood alcohol concentration levels that are currently used for traffic law enforcement and safety sensitive job performance. there are many studies that show the same results. thanks for your anecdotal evidence.
I have previously said that BACs used in traffic law are the level at which, by Gaussian distribution, >>99% of the population *is* impaired, making this comment redundant. The whole reason the levels were set in the manner that they were (in the US and Canada) is this is the level that you can "prove" impairment in a court. Nevermind that there are some that exist outside this range - an issue also well-addressed in the literature - one beer will push very few people to functional impairment, fine motor skills and all. Really.
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 7:22 AM
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some studies have shown impairment starting at .03 BAC.
low bac's are said to impart mild euphoria, sociability, talkitiveness increased self-confidence; decreased inhibitions, diminution of attention, judgment and control, beginning of sensory-motor impairment and loss of efficiency in finer performance tests.
so, if you're feeling a 'glow', you may be impaired.
As i quoted earlier, you may not be able to tell by simple observation.
Even trained observers are usually unable to detect the effects in people who have tolerance, but the effects are there. like last week in a town nearby where a group of grads had a party at one of their homes. the parents, who were present, did not supply any alcohol but were aware that kids were drinking. dad drove a bunch of kids home. one of the kids, who claimed he had not been drinking (and i guess did not appear to be drunk) turned down the offer of the ride home and drove himself and some others home. his passenger was killed in the subsequent accident. he was quite drunk.
"specious": a deceptive argument
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sharpender
Jul 1, 2003, 7:58 AM
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In reply to: Anyway, feel free to choose your climbing partners by whatever criteria you feel is best. In the final analysis your life depends on your judgement.
I think your life might depend on the judgement of the person belaying you, the person whose judgement may be impaired by alcohol. While, I might be comfortable with someone whose skills I know well, I don't want some newby or some stranger belaying me, beer in hand. Ironicallly, my partners never drank while climbing but my regular partner and I would stop in the market after a days climbing, tired and hungry grab a beer or two and drive down the mountain sucking em down. And his comment was always that the most dangerous part of the climbing day was the drive too and from. But damn those cold MGD's were good afte climbing.
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dead_milkman
Jul 1, 2003, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: some studies have shown impairment starting at .03 BAC.
Indeed, about 40% of people *will* be impaired at BAC = 0.03. What's your point?
In reply to: so, if you're feeling a 'glow', you may be impaired.
No shit... but the point is, was, and always has been just *how much* one can drink before being impaired. One beer - no dice for *most* people. Two beer - ditto. Three beer - probably pushing it for *most* people. And so on.
Red Herring - something which distracts attention from the issue at hand.
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jefffski
Jul 1, 2003, 6:30 PM
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the point is that there is a time and place for everything. drinking and climbing do not mix.
since some people may be impaired at .03bac and people are very poor evaluators of level of impairment, be they observers or the drinker in question, you cannot determine whether or how much that one drink makes you or your partner impaired.
if that one drink makes you feel better (glow), then you are impaired.
how much of an edge do you want to take off before you start to make errors in judgement?
if you don't understand this point, then are you intelligent enough to set up an equalized, redundant, bombroof anchor with gear, evaluate whether your cam placement is solid, know whether you haven't backclipped your draw, have your rope running under you properly to avoid being flipped by it when you fall or whether you have placed pro to protect your second?
safe climbers are prone to making errors in judgement with sometimes dire consequences (how many of us have gotten away with it--new thread?). why add alcohol to the mix?
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dead_milkman
Jul 1, 2003, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: if you don't understand this point, then are you intelligent enough to set up an equalized, redundant, bombroof anchor with gear, evaluate whether your cam placement is solid, know whether you haven't backclipped your draw, have your rope running under you properly to avoid being flipped by it when you fall or whether you have placed pro to protect your second?
Ooo... invective. And backhanded, too. Very nice. To put this simply: yes, if I can do all the things you describe after 20+ hours on the move in horribly frigid conditions with little water and no food then I'm not terribly worried how I'll perform at a crag after a beer. Not even the same sport, champ.
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vtposer
Jul 2, 2003, 2:08 AM
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Ok, no one ever said anything about needing to drink to take the edge off while climbing. The fact is I find that having a few beers and/or taking a few puffs and climbing well within my limits is totaly relaxing and enjoyable. For those of you who can't understand that I'm sorry but you need to open your eyes to the fact that you don't know sh#t.
I never NEED to drink to calm my nerves in order to ba able to climb a route that would be otherwise unclimbable for me.
We all know are own limits and should respect that fact that just because we don't feel comfortable doing something that its the same for everyone else. Its not. I don't solo 10's but some people do. Do I call them reckless and irresponsible? Tell them they shouldn't solo because there is a higher rate of risk involved and can get themselves hurt or killed. NO.
And all this talk about putting others at risk is nonsense. you all have watched to many climbing movies. I read the GUNKS.COM accident reports all the time and never hear about a climber getting hurt or killed because he was smoking pot or had a BAC of .03. Give me a break.
All this talk about climbing while impared is rediculous. the effect of a few beers and a bowl has never compromised my ability to establish a solid anchor or judge a solid placement. I have seen the effects of High Altitute and Icy cold weather be 10X more debilitating than that of a little alchohol and weed. Try Ice climbing in a blizzard when you cant feel your hands or your feet and cant see sh%t two feet in front of you.
Anyway, my intention wasn't to encourage getting drunk and climbing. It was simply to see if others out there shared in the some of the same experiences as I have. One of the best things I like about climbing is the great people I have met and climbed, smoked, and drank with.
I would take a half drunk and stoned partner who can handle his or her sh#t when the going gets tough over some sober wannabe crybaby any day.
In the words of the great Peter Tosh: LEGALIZE IT! AND I'LL ADVRATIZE IT!!
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coldclimb
Jul 2, 2003, 2:32 AM
Post #149 of 159
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wow, now I know what subject to use if I ever want a troll that will be bitten and bitten hard. :shock:
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mutant
Jul 2, 2003, 4:35 AM
Post #150 of 159
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Climbing while intoxicated is up to the judgement of the individual who is impaired. He/She should know thier limits at all times. If you climb with somebody who doesn' t know the limits of substance, then they should not partake. Further more you should not be hanging with this cat. Know your partners limits and understand each other. I agree with Curt in all aspects that if you are climbing with a gumby you should reconsider who you are with. Climbing with those you know and understand are very important in life...and climbing.
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offwidthclimber
Jul 2, 2003, 6:25 AM
Post #151 of 159
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you should never climb with people who are sober. belaying is a dangerously boring activity, only to be undertaken by people who are fuckerd up so much that they find belaying to be fun and engaging.
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overlord
Jul 2, 2003, 8:20 AM
Post #152 of 159
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In reply to: you should never climb with people who are sober. belaying is a dangerously boring activity, only to be undertaken by people who are f___ up so much that they find belaying to be fun and engaging.
belying is not really boring. its just a part of climbing. i usually dont get bored. but i only belay sports. and ma and my partners usually dont hangdog.
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dingus
Jul 2, 2003, 3:41 PM
Post #153 of 159
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In reply to: Ooo... invective. And backhanded, too. Very nice. To put this simply: yes, if I can do all the things you describe after 20+ hours on the move in horribly frigid conditions with little water and no food then I'm not terribly worried how I'll perform at a crag after a beer. Not even the same sport, champ.
But that is a given milkman.
DMT
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hunter
Jul 2, 2003, 4:48 PM
Post #154 of 159
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I'm one of those nasty straight and sober folks at the craig! :)
I've been on both sides of the fence though. IMO that if you imbibe frequently then the effects are limited and calming (not reckless, at least in moderate quanitity). I used to consume startling quanties various substances and still maintain a normal life (if that's what one could call it). A six pack would not even phase me at the time. Now however, 3 beers and I'm not fit to be doing anything potentially life threatening. It's all about built up tolorances.
Be respectful of others. Live your life as you see fit. Know your limits.
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robbovius
Jul 2, 2003, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: wow, now I know what subject to use if I ever want a troll that will be bitten and bitten hard. :shock:
uhhm, what? Chicks and Boobies?
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veggieclimber
Jul 2, 2003, 6:22 PM
Post #156 of 159
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Registered: Jun 25, 2003
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I've read this entire thread, and DAMN, I can't believe this discussion has gone on this long. Just thought I would add my two cents.
I question anyone who believes that drinking in any capacity does not effect them. The reason people use drugs is because it alters your state of mind. Most drugs(including alcohol) do this by adversely affecting your brain, impaired judgement and poor motor skills, however they also happen to release endorphins, that happy little chemical that makes you feel good. So despite the fact that you believe you are unaffected, that is just the endorphins in your brain covering for the damage being done.
Also I am slightly insulted by many of you assuming I am some sort of mormonizing jesus freak who is trying to rain on your party. I've made a decsion to stay clean. This decision was based on the fact that things like drugs, even caffeine, destroy your body, and that doesn't make me climb better. It just seems logical to me, there is no religous influence. Being that drugs impair your ability to preform and many climbers wish to perform better, it would seem logical for them not to use.
If you want to use mind altering substances, go for it, please don't bring them to the crags, and please don't tell me I am ruining your life by not using them, and asking you not to use them in public places.
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dingus
Jul 2, 2003, 6:57 PM
Post #157 of 159
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In reply to: If you want to use mind altering substances, go for it, please don't bring them to the crags, and please don't tell me I am ruining your life by not using them, and asking you not to use them in public places.
Hey Zeus Crime in Italy, you sound like some sort of mormonizing jesus freak! Don't tell me I'm ruining my life. Don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me what to bring to the crags.
Or I'll do the same for you.
DMT
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mewalrus
Jul 6, 2003, 5:36 AM
Post #158 of 159
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Registered: Jun 11, 2003
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In reply to: The reason people use drugs is because it alters your state of mind. Most drugs(including alcohol) do this by adversely affecting your brain, impaired judgement and poor motor skills, however they also happen to release endorphins, that happy little chemical that makes you feel good. So despite the fact that you believe you are unaffected, that is just the endorphins in your brain covering for the damage being done.
I would venture to say that most of us here climb because we enjoy the DRUGS climbing releases into our brains. We're all druggies, thats how i see it.
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apollodorus
Jul 6, 2003, 5:44 AM
Post #159 of 159
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Registered: Feb 18, 2002
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Note to self: NEVER stay up most of the night on a wall, drinking whiskey to stay warm by the campfire (don't even ask about that one) instead of getting into the sleeping bag. The next day you will still be drunk, and getting a hangover that starts at noon and lasts until you can finally get settled and asleep at the next bivi is not fun. At best, you will be hurting. At worst, you could cause a serious accident.
Beer is for after the climb, not during. I won't comment on using pot, LSD or mushrooms while climbing because I've always been too scared to try that. I've seen it work for others, but was scared just watching them.
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