Ignore gnat's negativity. It is true that a 5.11b top-rope climber would not have the context to know where to place the bolts on a route of that difficulty. If you are a 5.13 climber though, perhaps you should have a better understanding of the movement and the best location for the bolts. If your friend insists that he is going to bolt it, and you cannot convince him not to, perhaps you should ask him to allow YOU to do it. perhaps not as ideal as you bolting it when you are stronger, but better than option 1.

Ignore gnat's negativity. It is true that a 5.11b top-rope climber would not have the context to know where to place the bolts on a route of that difficulty. If you are a 5.13 climber though, perhaps you should have a better understanding of the movement and the best location for the bolts. If your friend insists that he is going to bolt it, and you cannot convince him not to, perhaps you should ask him to allow YOU to do it. perhaps not as ideal as you bolting it when you are stronger, but better than option 1.

How does the 11b climber know that the line in question is .14 and not .17 or 18. What if the line never goes?

Why wouldn't anyone bolt a line they can't even touch?
Did we start tracking the FB?
Can you get into a guidebook this way?

Tell your friend to buy a big rock for his backyard and drill a bunch of holes in it.

If there are no 13+/14- climbers in your area, it might not particularly be worth spending the money to do so, but certainly no one should complain: it's a service by him to the community.

If he puts bolts in the wrong place, someone can always move them or add more later. No big deal.

If there are no 13+/14- climbers in your area...

No. The rules clearly state on the bottom of page 201, and I quote, "...you must be at least a 5.11c climber before you can bolt any 5.14 routes...." Then it just goes off on a tangent about what shoes to wear, and what side you should rack up on, yadda yadda yadda. Go back and re-read pages 200-204 of your book. It's all right there.

I'm sorry but you'll really have to wait until you get to the "c" level. It's only fair to the rest of us.

Sure, why not?

Isn't this America?

Should the Rock Police tell a climber where and when he/she can try a new route?

Seems like you are really only looking for validation for your own opinion.

If you are so hot about the climb, go bolt it yourself.

Routes bolted on rappel have better placed bolts

No big deal?? In a gym it's no big deal. On a rock it's a very big deal. Again, maybe you embrace the judeo-christian song "it's all put here simply for your to pillage..." but many of us don't. Again, a little respect for the rock and self is in order in this situation -- not encouragement.

:shock: i can only NAME close to twenty... no big deal or anything. people need to hear more about Vegas i guess. :roll: sheeeesh.

why would you say that is? i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging?

bolts that are like 6 ft. off route really kill me because I have a 5 foot armspan. if you bolted on rappel wouldnt you be more likely to misjudge the range of the placements?


for clarification: I don't really care about the "style" of putting bolts up on rappel vs. lead. they are going to end up living on the rock face no matter how they get there. what I am curious about is your thought process concerning the efficaciousness of the differing methods for safe, useful bolt placement.

why would you say that is? i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging?

A friend of mine who bolts spends a tonne of time working the moves of the route on top rope marking potential bolt locations with chalk

Modern climbers more generally don't care so much about rules, and certainly not rules of a dogmatic nature. To many of them, "trad" means you are hangdogging on cams instead of on bolts. They don't care at all how the bolts got onto the rock and definitely have no real interest in who put them there. The zeitgeist is a bit different now: adherence to dogma is out---climbing for fun is in.

You talk of environmental "pillage", healyje. If you really mean what you say, and really think the impact of a bolt in some random chosspile is significant, for consistency sake, I'd encourage you to consider the difference in real environmental impact between a rap-bolted crag, and the city you live in.

Are there cliffs where the rock mostly only allows pure [bolted] sport routes, sure - but everywhere else where the rock takes pro it should be left a mixed environment with bolts only used where absolutely necessary.

So it isn't dogma - it's just a common sense approach to preserving access, ...

i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging?

Historically speaking, the standards of our sport were pushed by people who were willing to break the rules set by the previous old guards.

Don’t tell me that this guy isn’t Wolfgang, I know this, but maybe he is one of the guys who will push the standards in his area or the country one day.

I personally like that this person is willing to challenge himself, develop new lines, and push the ethical envelop forward.

Not to sound mean but your friend is as dumb as they come, unless they climb that hard how in the world is he going to knows that a true 14? Unless you can climb that hard and have climbed other 14's to know what they are like how can u call it a 14? do me a favor next time you out with you friend just do the entire climbing world a favor and push him off the top of some tall face with out any belay.

If you are drilling ground up without aid, you only get to drill when you find a no-hands stance. This results in runouts, and generally letting the route dictate where you can place the bolts instead of logic about where clips will be easy.

If you are drilling ground up, with aid, you have as much control as rab bolting, unless you arbitrarily limit yourself to hooking or something lame like that. In the latter case, you'll end up with a complete mess (like the Bachar-Yerian).

Couldn't let this slip by, Fracture. The Bachar-Yerian is a mess??? (Not a bold, visionary, ground breaking climb...?)

I think there is something to be said for putting a route up according to what the rock dictates. You don't?

No, historically speaking, the standards of our sport were pushed by innovative and extremely bold people who took risks to push those standards - little or no "breaking of rules" was involved.

Ray Jardine pushed the ethical envelop when he decided to work the Phoenix into oblivion. He put up the first 13. He was criticized for dogging the route more than for pitoning it to death.

Separate Reality in the valley was lead on preplaced gear. The gear was placed while walking across the top of the crack, and the slings hung on the bottom. Sounds a lot like pink pointing to me. The route is still done this way often.


With your standards of needing to be within reach, no new standarts would be reached. Lynn Hill worked on the Nose for over a year before getting the redpoint. You could argue that the route wasn't in her range and didn’t belong there. Is she pushing the ethics envelop in the wrong direction too.

Wofgang was criticized in “Rock Punk,” I know, I was living in Bavaria at the time, for bolting a route that "would never go free." I guess he showed them.

Instead of criticizing this guy for wanted to bolt something hard by his standards, give him some advice on how to do the job well. Whether the route is 14 or not is irrelevant anyways.

Sport routes

Wolfgang Gullich bolted a Action Direct (14+) now, before he, or anyone else in the world was ever able to climb the grade. He had vision, he failed, he designed a training regiment, and he came back several months later to do the first accent. He than rated the route 14b before any route had ever been rated 14a. When criticized for it, he held his ground.

Wolfgang Gullich bolted a Action Direct (14+) now, before he, or anyone else in the world was ever able to climb the grade. He had vision, he failed, he designed a training regiment, and he came back several months later to do the first accent. He than rated the route 14b before any route had ever been rated 14a. When criticized for it, he held his ground.

If your mate thinks that hees up to the task and willing to learn and put up a quaility route, then Id say let him go for it.

even good climbers screw up bolt jobs.. i dont know if it's been mentioned but Dave graham did a poor ass job on Bill clinton project at Rumney.. though it has been done properly now

still say u should toss TR anchors and see what it's like... or leave it

]

No, I don't. I call it contrived. But that's not what the Bachar-Yerian is, anyway: it was drilled on aid (from hooks). The runouts are completely deliberate, not "dictated by the rock". Supposedly (I don't remember where I heard this) on the FA, Bachar would climb, ask Yerian if he was scared, and if yes, go a little further before placing a hook to drill a bolt.

Ground breaking? The Bachar-Yerian is only 5.11c/d. The only "difficulty" is due to the intentionally bad bolting job. As Guangzhou mentions: Action Directe was truely ground breaking. Akira will probably eventually be seen as ground breaking. The FFA of the Nose was ground breaking. The early rap-bolted lines done at Smith were certainly ground breaking.

I don't think the BY compares with these other developments.

Nowhere have anyone claimed that ground up routes were not bold. Whether or not a line is bold is irrelevant to the question on this post.

On a different note, I have never climbed the Bachar line, I hope to get there one day.

Having not done the route, I can't say how often a hook placement was available to Bachar - but I guarantee that the runouts were not entirely deliberate. - i.e. on a steep slab he climbed upward into the unknown hoping for a hook placement before the fall potential became too enormous...

I've not heard the story you related above... sounds like rumor/myth to me, though.

As far as the grade goes... Well, it has spit off 5.13/14 cats like Kurt Albert - I was referring to it as groundbreaking in terms of mind control and style, not numerical difficulty.

I'm not disputing the historic nature of some of those other routes you mentioned... but I think it is interesting that all of the routes you name were done in a "modern" top-down style. I'm certainly not against sport climbing or "working" trad routes on a top-rope... but don't you think there is room in climbing for ground-up boldness (which I think the Bachar-Yerian is an excellent example of)? (I only ask because your list seems to indicate that you only place importance on difficulty)

To me, climbing up into difficult, unknown terrain with uncertain protection is quite admirable.

Again, none of the known people who put up any of the routes mentioned in this thread, especially Wolfgang or Fred, were attempting to put up a route 3-4 levels of difficulty above their current abilities. None were operating out of "community service", but out of all consuming self-interest.

As far as I'm concerned anyone putting up a route for any reason other than a project they are personally obssessed with (and has at least the remote possibility of doing) is in fact a poser doing themselves and everyone else a disservice. The very concept of setting routes as a "community service" outside of a gym pretty much falls under the category of abominable and abhorrent ...

If an 11b toproper thinks he is up to the task of bolting a 5.14 route, then he is delusional.

-Jay

example: who bolted Biographie?

Jean Christophe Lafaille. In 1988. Before anyone had even climbed a 14d, much less 15a. The midpoint anchors were added by Arnaud Petit, who did the FFA of the first half at 14c in '96. The full thing didn't get 'sent till 2001.

How dare they blaspheme, eh?

All you're saying is "poser", over and over, healyje. Since you maintain that your position is not religious zealotry, how about a rational argument against putting routes up as a community service....

healy J . Thats a pretty A hole statement. At sport crags you sometimes have guys that work their butts off cleaning rts, setting rts and doing trail work. to call these guys posers just because they might set a rt they are not personaly capeable of freeing is lame.

I know I set a few rts for my GF that I had no chance of freeing in my wildest dreams. One of them is a fairly populer climb now with no complaints and the other is still a project. Does that make me a poser because I put a bunch of effort and work into a project so that my Gf and a few of my other friends had a new climb to play on?.

You don't have to be a great climber to know how to run a wire brush and and a drill. I think the totaly lame a$$ ones are the rock jocks that ask me why i haven't cleaned and bolted a line yet but they wont get off their lazy arses and help clean and set the rt.

...at a grade he was could onsight solo.

Also, keep in mind that if there's any endurance aspect whatsoever, it wouldn't be a 5.11+ for the FA, because he got to rest on the points of aid.

Another (possibly rumor/myth) that I read somewhere is that hearing someone was planning to rap bolt the line is what spurred Bachar to go lead it ground up. Seems the whole excersize was an effort to prove something on Bachar's behalf.

On toprope? People fall off (and, IIRC, injure their belayer, in this case) because they are scared, not because it is hard. If you slap a toprope on it and remove the mental control aspect, many, if not most recreational climbers would be capable of climbing it (it's only 11+).

Bold? Yes, I guess. Admirable? Not to me.

Gentlemen, gentlemen... come on now, we're all climbers here, right?

To the notion of bolting a route the bolter cannot climb:

If the bolter is squeezing in a line at an already established crag where others have done most of the previous work... the squeeze bolter is more likely to do the community a disservice. All of the 'why's' voiced in this thread would jump to the fore. Why bolt a squeeze job the bolter has no hope of climbing?

Now if the bolter is doing this at a crag where the bolter herself is the primary mover of route development? STFU, its none of your business.

If the bolter is mainly a noob with just a few or handful of FA sends under her belt and can't even redpoint most moderate sport routes, what makes her think she can open a route so far above her standard?

DMT

No big deal?? In a gym it's no big deal. On a rock it's a very big deal.
---------
They aren't gyms, or canvases, they're the real world - let's attempt to retain a shred of collective self-respect and spine by not reducing them all to outdoor clip joints for the suburban hordes.
---------
The very concept of setting routes as a "community service" outside of a gym pretty much falls under the category of abominable and abhorrent - again, the domain of total posers and egomaniacs operating at the expense of the rock.
---------
Again, this notion of "community service" of putting up routes you aren't personally trying to FA is, as far as I'm concerned, a similar affliction to people simply wanting their gym clipping experience outdoors - it's perversion that has unfortunately escaped the [gym] box.

come on now, we're all climbers here, right?

By the way, he is super spcyched to give the line another go. I am sure this will push him to excell.

At the risk of taking your comments out of context, healyje (and I apologize if I am) but are you "projecting?"

Again, conceptually gyms started out as simply a way to bring the climbing experience into urban surrounds so we could climb when we couldn't get out. What has happened over time, however, was something relatively unintended - masses of climbers whose first experiences of climbing is indoors and who now simply want to have that absolutely safe [clipping] experience outdoors. And their numbers have proliferated as has relentless unnecessary [grid] bolting.

Yes, Bachar did onsight solo 5.11s. But a several pitch 5.11 face climb without knowing the difficulties? No, he would NOT onsight solo that.

To some extent, I agree with Dingus.

However, it is ridiculous to compare a 11b climber bolting a 14 to JC Lafaille bolting Realization. Every example in this thread (as has been noted) has been of someone who bolted a line that was 2-3 letter grades over their head - not 10-12!!!!!!!

This afternoon, two other climbers climbed the line and enjoyed it as well. Not one complained about bad bolt placements, and both thanked my partner for his time and energy.

Yes, Bachar did onsight solo 5.11s. But a several pitch 5.11 face climb without knowing the difficulties? No, he would NOT onsight solo that.

After placing each bolt, Bachar lowered to the start of the pitch, pulled the rope, and free climbed past the bolt to the next "stance." So yes, there was the 11+ endurance aspect for the FA.

Yes, I've also read that Bachar went and did it because the line was about to be rap-bolted. I'm not sure why this should be criticized. Instead of having just a nice 5.11 sport face climb, we have a historic mind control testpiece that can challenge generations of climbers...

But I guess it just comes down to whether or not you admire boldness...

And I do agree that a dogmatic view of ground-up is unrealistic and outdated... Sport climbing provides a high level of mental challenge as well. Memorizing every move and refusing to lose faith when you fall at the same place time and time again is not easy...

If we all had to climb like Henry Barber a lot of us would be dead.

Too bad. I for one am glad they are here. I never really liked you 5.11c R leader dudes dictating to everyone else how to climb anyway.

If we all had to climb like Henry Barber a lot of us would be dead.

Anyway, the sky is not falling down.

DMT

Healyj, you sound like a selfish little prick if you can't understand the concept of putting up a rt for you girlfriend as a gift :roll: I do put the rts up on lead so i get pleanty of thrills and the Fa even if it is not the FFA. I do not put up rts for guys that are too lazy to help themselfs. Jorge put up tons of rts for his wife and then gave a few of them to Lyn Hill and J long. talk about community service, the guy created a massive playground for all of us. No I don't think that a top ropeing wanker should be bolting 14's but a competent climber with some vision can certainly put up a good rt that is above their free climbing ability.

I'm not dictating anything to anyone, just laying out my opinions and feelings on the matter.

More importantly, should a 5.14 leader be putting up 5.11s? My neighbor and I debated this last night over snifters of Kessler, as he doesn't believe an uber-climber can remember what it's like to only climb 5.11 and will underbolt the thing.

Of course, my neighbor is a bit of a weenie. When his first wife died, he cried with his pastor. Cried with his pastor!

A few people have noted that 11b TOP ROPING is MANY LETTER GRADES below 5.14. Remember now, this bloter wannabe is NOT an 11b leader, he's an 11b top roper.

All these anecdotes about some guy, famed or not, bolting a route 2 or three or even 5 letters above his current climbing seem to miss that point.

IF this thing goes the way most bolt or don't bolt arguments go, the guy will bolt it anyway, no matter how many reasons there are against it.

Fair enough. You are strongly advocating then, strident even. Consistent, I'll give you that.

I don't believe the explosion of new climbers is ruining our sport. I think they ARE the sport, every bit as much as you or I.

Cheers
DMT

The appearance in the marketplace of both gyms and battery operated hammerdrills at the same time has enabled not so much a "ruining of the sport" as a slow [ruining] commodification of the rock.

Well, healy, all your comments including the word "gym" seemed at least vaguely derisive, and smacked of a stereotypical, dinosaur-clings-to-dogmatic views of kids these days. I do agree with a lot of your comments on this issue, but the gym-hating, 11c R hardman rhetoric is so played out... but mystifying nonetheless. There is something to be said for your consistency though!