|
ottoman
Jan 15, 2004, 4:33 AM
Post #226 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 26, 2003
Posts: 149
|
i believe some folks have done same at bubba city(new)
|
|
|
|
|
mrme
Jan 15, 2004, 4:39 AM
Post #227 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2003
Posts: 449
|
In reply to: i believe some folks have done same at bubba city(new)
yea there are safe trad climbs that have been retro bolted at the new though the retro bolting is unsafe i have seen a few and don't know the stories behinde those as for the ones at bubba it is to my knoledge that the first ascent parties gave permission to bolt them. and i have seen a bolt or to go on unsafe sport climbs in the last year.
|
|
|
|
|
mrme
Jan 15, 2004, 5:28 AM
Post #228 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2003
Posts: 449
|
there has been climbers for years that have climbed these climbs that have bolts added and climbed them without the bolt is the bolt really needed? it might make the climb "safer" but does that mean more people are going to try it now and actually not be ready for it making it unsafe in a way (no choping happening of these bolts). at the bridge butress shuts were put up to stop erosion on trees most of wich were removed or piss porly chopped these bolts are needed or are they(aparently these people don't think the enviroment is worth a bolt .and they think so porlly of the environment that they put bolts up to produce more traffic in the sport areas). i have seen trails made for easer access when it was not needed destroying a fragiale hillside by a water way why does everyone want to walk a level way that is eroding to the enviroment when the old way though hilly is better acomidations to the environment. why change someone elses progect and bring it down to your level period. find a way to get to the top of it and top rope it if you don't want to lead it. ever hear of clean aid climbing. not all climbs in all areas are for all people. i don't understand the mantality that every thing every were has to be acomidating to every ones needs at all times. people need to grow back bones. every one in this world is selfish so some kind of standerded needed to be made the first acsent rule was made so those who are bold can be bold and those with the eye to finde routes can make them weather it be a bolt climb or a trad climb.... why not make your own well bolted lines and let what others have done before you alone for the sake of tradition and selflessness.
|
|
|
|
|
whenindoubtrunitout
Mar 12, 2004, 9:40 AM
Post #229 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2002
Posts: 31
|
There will always be people who prefer routes with more bolts and those who prefer them with less bolts. As soon as someone starts adding bolts to existing routes or removing bolts from existing routes they destroy another climber's vision and values. First ascentionists are an accurate cross-section of the entire climbing community. They (as a group) are a much closer representation of our community's values than any bolting committee or individual bolt chopper/adder will ever be. It is for this reason that unilateral decisions to add or remove bolts from routes have always been met with such disdain. The incentive behind the addition of bolts to original routes comes from the same place as the chopping of bolts from original routes... pure selfishness. If you don't respect other climbers' values, how can you expect them to respect yours? A route's character is initially established by the first ascent party. If they decide they botched it, they can change it. Pressuring them to conform to a segment of the community's values is contrary to the most essential element in climbing... freedom. Furthermore, the addition of bolts to previously established routes destroys an important facet of our community's heritage and threatens to homogenize the sport. Bold routes are something some American rock climbers may take great pride in. (And even that, in itself, is not a healthy reason to destroy the object of their pride.) But for most, the diversification of routes that results from the preservation of all styles of ascent is something many climbers sincerely value in a way that transcends the ego.
Whatever the reason, there is plenty of virgin rock out there to power-rappel drill to your heart's content. And those who value highly bolted routes can gobble up the rock much faster than climbers drilling by hand, from stances, in remote regions. So please.... holster your drills in the name of peace and preservation if not mutual respect.
And if fewer people start coming to see the Mona Lisa, don't bother trying to lay a guilt trip on me to justify painting over it with some brighter colors that more people will like. Go paint a new painting and open up your own gallery. We will put the Mona Lisa in a smaller gallery, with fewer visitors, paying less money if it comes to that. And I'm confident most of us won't be doing it for our egos. We just enjoy the Mona Lisa the way it is.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 4:10 AM
Post #230 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: rockync, Threads like your come along periodically and are usually incorrect in their premise and reasoning. First of all it is not "ego" that is being respected--it is tradition. The "ownership" to a route by a first ascensionist is akin to an informal sort of copyright. There are reasons why it is not considered kosher to alter the work of another person, be it software, book, painting or route. Of course, if the creator of the work allows modification to his creation--that is another thing entirely. Curt
I agree with you as far as respecting traditions goes, although I disagree that a FFAscentionist has carte blanche to edit his or her route once it has been established and repeated. This is why:
A route, once established and ascended by subsequent parties, becomes larger than the first ascensionist and his or her initial goal. It becomes the memories and aspirations of all who's ascents come after that of the first ascentionist's. The book has been written and published, and its history subsequently belongs to everyone associated with it. That is how we are able to make it belong to all of us, without disrespecting the efforts of its author(s).
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Oct 12, 2005, 5:22 AM
Post #231 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
My .02$
This is a slippery slope in a society of greasy people.
Edited to say: good thread, discussion is always healthy.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 5:30 AM
Post #232 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: My .02$ This is a slippery slope in a society of greasy people.
Worth exactly two cents. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
oldrnotboldr
Oct 12, 2005, 2:11 PM
Post #233 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 306
|
To offer support and reiterate what many others have said:
-Bolts do alter rock. No amount of glue, dirt, dust, whatever can return the rock to its original condition. The rock has still been compromised.
-If a person cannot do a route in the same, or better, method then perhaps they are climbing over their abilities and should not be there, for their safety, possibly the safety of others, and the sport itself. There is no need to decrease a route level for others. The others need to increase their levels.
-The old guard may be on the way out. However, the new guard should consider their actions carefully as to the impact on the sport, on the environment, and increasing their skills and exploration, adventure, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Oct 12, 2005, 7:20 PM
Post #234 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
This conversation was so :deadhorse: 18 months ago.
I'm not sure what I think about all these "related thread" spawned resurrections.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 7:31 PM
Post #235 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: This conversation was so :deadhorse: 18 months ago. I'm not sure what I think about all these "related thread" spawned resurrections. GO
Stop beating that animal's crotch. Your penis envy is so transparent.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 7:32 PM
Post #236 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
Stop beating theat animal's crotch. Your penis envy is so transparent.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Oct 12, 2005, 9:56 PM
Post #237 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Say that to my face sometime, loser. Let's see, you don't know how to post, you don't know what "penis envy" means, and you don't know that a thread is long dead and gone.
Whatever.
G:roll:
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 11:37 PM
Post #238 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: Say that to my face sometime, loser. Let's see, you don't know how to post, you don't know what "penis envy" means, and you don't know that a thread is long dead and gone. Whatever. G:roll:
You have been living in Boston too long. Your angst seems to have red-lined.
First of all, it was a joke. Secondly, your neanderthal threat was uncalled for and dangerous. Don't ever threaten me unless you feel Herculean enough to do it to my face. You'll get one face-to-face opportunity at it, and I assure you it will be your last. Finally, the thread isn't dead until it is dead.
Now, go back to your cave, hominid.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Oct 13, 2005, 12:48 AM
Post #239 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: In reply to: Say that to my face sometime, loser. Let's see, you don't know how to post, you don't know what "penis envy" means, and you don't know that a thread is long dead and gone. Whatever. G:roll: You have been living in Boston too long. Your angst seems to have red-lined.
You're probably right about that one! Lousy day at work is all.
In reply to: First of all, it was a joke. Secondly, your neanderthal threat was uncalled for and dangerous. Don't ever threaten me unless you feel Herculean enough to do it to my face. You'll get one face-to-face opportunity at it, and I assure you it will be your last.
If it was a joke, fine. I've got a lousy sense of humor these days - I don't get your joke, but whatever. (My understanding of penis envy is that it's the Freundian concept of a woman's craving for a man's power). Anyway, I didn't threaten you, I simply said that if you *do* want to insult me, please do it to my face, or not at all. And as for what would come of that, I dunno, I'm not a violent guy, but I've kicked a few asses when forced.
In reply to: Now, go back to your cave, hominid.
Hey, lucky you, you get your wish. I'm stuck here in my office (read: cave) until I get this goddamn report done. It's the one and only thing I have really needed to get done at work today, and because my boss has been in my face all day, I couldn't get it started until 6. Now it's nearly 8:30, and I'm halfway there.
Ah but in three weeks I'll be climbing in Les Calanques. Having trouble getting this pic to work, but if you quote my post, you'll see the url for the pic correctly: http://www.topo-calanques.com/images/images_topo/topo_calanque_amarylis.jpg
It's sport climbing, but I've heard that between the anchors they need some gear. Should I bring along a bolt kit? ;)
GO
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 13, 2005, 5:36 AM
Post #240 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Say that to my face sometime, loser. Let's see, you don't know how to post, you don't know what "penis envy" means, and you don't know that a thread is long dead and gone. Whatever. G:roll: You have been living in Boston too long. Your angst seems to have red-lined. You're probably right about that one! Lousy day at work is all. In reply to: First of all, it was a joke. Secondly, your Neanderthal threat was uncalled for and dangerous. Don't ever threaten me unless you feel Herculean enough to do it to my face. You'll get one face-to-face opportunity at it, and I assure you it will be your last. If it was a joke, fine. I've got a lousy sense of humor these days - I don't get your joke, but whatever. (My understanding of penis envy is that it's the Freundian concept of a woman's craving for a man's power). Anyway, I didn't threaten you, I simply said that if you *do* want to insult me, please do it to my face, or not at all. And as for what would come of that, I dunno, I'm not a violent guy, but I've kicked a few asses when forced. In reply to: Now, go back to your cave, hominid. Hey, lucky you, you get your wish. I'm stuck here in my office (read: cave) until I get this goddamn report done. It's the one and only thing I have really needed to get done at work today, and because my boss has been in my face all day, I couldn't get it started until 6. Now it's nearly 8:30, and I'm halfway there. Ah but in three weeks I'll be climbing in Les Calanques. Having trouble getting this pic to work, but if you quote my post, you'll see the url for the pic correctly: http://www.topo-calanques.com/images/images_topo/topo_calanque_amarylis.jpg It's sport climbing, but I've heard that between the anchors they need some gear. Should I bring along a bolt kit? ;) GO
I was raised in Boston, so I understand the pace. Suck it up, because Beantown waits for no one. I love that town. We always referred to it as the hub of the universe.
Going to Les Calanques, eh. Bring your Speedo. More importantly, dig that sense of humor out of the closet before you leave - no frowning faces there.
Enjoy your vacation. Oh yeah, don't forget to shave all of that excess hair from your body. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
eastvillage
Oct 13, 2005, 12:16 PM
Post #241 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 262
|
Retro bolting, retro protecting, is all part of the dumbing down of our society and our culture.
The Retro bolting desire is an admission that you are weaker than your parents.
Climbing is not an amusement park ride. If its too dangerous, go back home to mother.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 13, 2005, 4:13 PM
Post #242 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: Retro bolting, retro protecting, is all part of the dumbing down of our society and our culture. The Retro bolting desire is an admission that you are weaker than your parents.
Some will argue that retro-bolting is a sign that they are smarter than their parents, although I doubt that. I think it is simply a sign of laziness and entitlement
In reply to: Climbing is not an amusement park ride. If its too dangerous, go back home to mother.
Or just leave it alone until you can deal with it on its own terms
|
|
|
|
|
nrgroscoe
Oct 13, 2005, 5:38 PM
Post #243 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2005
Posts: 28
|
16 pages of posts tells me this is a hot topic. Time for me to weigh in. I started climbing in 1979 when it was just called climbing. not sport, mixed, boulder, trad and gym climbing. It was all trad. You fell, you lowered, pulled the rope and tried again. If you wanted to repeat the classics you had to have the mind to go with the body to succeed. The mental game was part of the route and the main challenge in my mind.
RESPECT WAS ALSO PART OF THE CULTURE! You wanted to repeat the B & Y or Piece de Resitance then you had to gring your A game and step up to the plate and climb what others had climbed, it wasn't a repeat if you failed to climb it in style and respect to the FA. RESPECT is a lost word in climbing and modern culture.
1980's saw a slew of hard routes and not so hard routes put up ground up, on sight, no hangdoggin or pre protection or friggin. GROUND UP AND ONSIGHT! Does todays climber understand those two words? No! Becasue when you are raised in the gym, with pad and the short cuts to sucess then an ancient art has been lost.
When you are standing at the base of a potential FA (when ground up this is where you start!), you have no idea how hard it will be, if there is protection, where the drilling stances are (in the old days you stood on very small holds to drill, or in the case of steep rock hung off a dicey hook (B&Y, Electric Africa) to drill by hand, swinging a hammer and turning the drill while maintaining composure, calf power and gusto. When drilling off hooks (john bachar taught me this one) you immediatly lower off the bolt to the ground and started over, pulled the rope because the bolt was placed on aid therefore hanging, go to ground start over. (See black out in toulumne). When you don't know what you are in for you are scared and excited at the same time. You take what the rock and your talent gives you and you GO WITH IT> EGO is left at the car! It's only when the heart stops punding and you are at the top that you realize what you have experienced. It may be well protected or it may not, it may have gear it may not. The bottom line is YOU STEPPED UP, WORKED WITH THE ROCK AND IF YOU KEPT YOUR COOL YOU WERE REWARDED WITH A FA AND GREAT MEMORIES. NOW SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, I DID NOT PUT UP ROUTES IN THOSE DAYS WITH THE INTENTION OF SAND BAGGING AND STROKING MY EGO. I PUT UP ROUTES WITH WHAT THE ROCK GAVE ME AND WHAT THE ETHICS OF THE DAY WERE. GROUND UP!
THE END RESULT WAS ANOTHER REAL TRAD LINE, GROUND UP, NO DOGGING NO BULLSHIT, SOMETIMES WELL PROTECTED (FAREWELL TO KINGS) SOMETIMES A DEATH ROUTE (BURNING DOWN THE HOUSE).....
REPSECT WAS PRSERVED BECAUSE I WANTED TO FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF MY HEROS, JOHN BACHAR, BOB KAMPS, TM HERBERT AND MANY MORE NAMES THAT ARE LOST IN MODERN TIMES....
Now for modern times. I love to drill! I love FA's. I changed at the end of the 80's because i wanted to push my physical game as well as my mental game. I adapted to sport and it took me to some amazing places and allowed me killer fa's and memories. Clear Creek, Rifle, Mexico, El cap....
But i still believe that RESPECT of whats been done is the last thing left in climbing. LOSE THAT AND WE ALL BECOME WAL MART CLIMBERS.
The choice is yours, elevate your game, your mind and climb those old routes, or just keep walking to the grid wall of bolts... if you step up to the plate you will be rewarded with an EXPERIENCE THAT WILL STAY WITH YOU LONG AFTER THE CLIP UPS ARE GONE. MY MOST MEMORIABLE MOMENTS ARE FROM THE 80'S AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BIG NUMBERS OR EGOS, BUT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH EXPERIENCE AND THAT WHICH I SHARE WITH MY PARTNERS....
sO TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT, THE fa IS THE COPYRIGHT. TAKE THAT AWAY AND YOU ARE A LOSER AND DON'T DESERVE THE ROCK, THE RACK OR YOUR SAC! IF WE DUMB DOWN CLIMBING ANY LOWER, (SEE THE MAGS) THEN WE ALL HAVE LOST HISTORY ANDTHE EXPERIENCES IN CLIMBING THAT MAGS AND GYMS CAN'T TEACH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Find another route or step up and taste a little bit of history and adventure, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT CLIMBING IS/WAS ALL ABOUT...
one other point! Add bolts to my old routes and i will chop them! Cookie Monster was a real trad line and is now the most popular sport route in the valley! This is sad and once that door is open then DRILL up wheat thin and consider yourself a climber witHOUT RESPECT OR PRIDE. JUST ANOTHER WAL MART CLIMBER!
i WON'T HIDE BEHIND SOME LOGIN NAME... This is Kurt Smith, and climbing has been good to me and i want to see that continue with the next generation....
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Oct 13, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #244 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
Thanks Kurt for speaking on behalf of many of us, who were climbing during that period and shared many similar experiences. I hope that your words will tap the minds of those who seem to be having a hard time grasping this.
|
|
|
|
|
whenindoubtrunitout
Nov 28, 2005, 12:03 AM
Post #245 of 246
(12005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2002
Posts: 31
|
Rufus,
Your considerate response gives this thread something new and important to consider. My main point was simply to reiterte the importance of respect. Thank you for a well-thought-out response.
|
|
|
|
|
|
