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photoguy190
Feb 4, 2008, 4:59 PM
Post #28 of 48
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Here is what I have found out with the layers thing. You do not want to ware to much, just like during the day you have to keep your sweating down. I sleep in just my boxers, if its going to be really cold I will ware long underwear that is just for sleeping so that it stays dry and will wick away the killer sweat, when its cold wet kills and sweat gets you wet. The other thing is do you sleep warm or cold, I sleep warm and I can normally push my bag at lest 10 degrees lower the its rated. 45 to 30, 20 to 10. If you sleep cold you may want to get a liner, helps wick that killer sweat away, or a 45 degree bag and use that as a liner.
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redsox5945
Feb 5, 2008, 12:54 AM
Post #29 of 48
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In reply to: redsox5945 wrote: Just remember, spooning, not forking. How about 'sporking'? I travel fast and light. Wink
Whatever you do, bring protection.
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krosbakken
Feb 5, 2008, 1:33 AM
Post #30 of 48
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monkeychild wrote: I didn't know quite where to put this.... but I'm going winter camping in a few nights, and the weather report predicts it will be -10 degrees in the morning. I have a 0 degree rated sleeping bag. If I dress with a LOT of layers (so long as I don't squish the insulation in the bag), and wear a hat and maybe put a fleece blanket in there as a liner, d'ya think I'll be warm enough? Thanks -MC
MC, I just did what you are going to do. The weekend of Jan. 18 a group of me and 8 other people went camping for 3 days and 2 nights up in the Boundry Waters, MN. We snowshoed in a few miles and set up camp. It was -30 F at night and only around -15 F during the day. We slept in snow caves also which i think you said you were doing.
At night for my sleeping bag I had a 0 F bag with two summer bags rated around 30 or 40 F inside of the 0 F bag. I slept in clean fresh wool socks, my wicking layer ( under armor spandex on my legs and long sleeve under armor shirt ), and finally a nice warm hat. And don't forget to have 2 sleeping pads under you and a tarp. With that combination I was toastie warm, I used no heat packets or hat water bottles, but for sure use if you would like. And If you want anything warm or not frozen in the morning put it at the bottom of your sleeping bag.
Maybe you know all this maybe you don't, just trying to help you out.
Hope you have a fun trip.
-Krosbakken
If you want anymore tips email me, Ill try to help you out.
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Fenst
Feb 5, 2008, 4:11 AM
Post #31 of 48
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They make special pee funnels for women who use pee bottles. When you pee in the bottle stick it in you bag it will be nice and warm. Another tip I saw nobody mention is to pee if you have ANY erge whatsoever. Keeping pee warm in your bladder burns calories that would otherwise be used to heat the rest of your body.
The idea of putting a jacket over your face is not smart. Moisture will migrate it's way into your bag for sure. I've used a mosquito head net for this purpose and it breathes better. A balaclava would be a cheap way to ensure warmth. If you have no balaclava use a piece of cothing to create a neck gasket.
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lithiummetalman
Feb 5, 2008, 4:26 AM
Post #32 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: Bring two full length pads (make sure one of the is foam!), you'll sleep warmer . I only have one pad - a 1.75 inch thermarest. and a Tarp. I hope that'll be OK. I know I can build up a snow step to sleep on since that should make me warmer. Thanks, -MC
You're going to want two pads! Your ass will thank you in the morning! Can pick up a foam pad for about $10 to complement the thermarest.. If you can still find the egg shell foam 2" foam pads, even better!
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microbarn
Feb 5, 2008, 5:21 AM
Post #33 of 48
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Fenst wrote: The idea of putting a jacket over your face is not smart. Moisture will migrate it's way into your bag for sure. I've used a mosquito head net for this purpose and it breathes better. A balaclava would be a cheap way to ensure warmth. If you have no balaclava use a piece of cothing to create a neck gasket.
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antiqued
Feb 7, 2008, 8:24 PM
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In the long run, you need the experience. Bags are +/- up to 10 degrees by manufacturer and body size. Old (or dirty) bags lose some warmth. Different people range another 15 degrees or more. The same person will sleep with much less after acclimation. Factor in tiredness, food, .....
In the short run, if you are sleeping in a decent snow shelter with 6 other people, the temperature inside will get close to 32 degrees, despite the outside thermometer. A zero bag, good pad(s) and some dry spare clothing will guarantee a reasonable night.
A down bag compresses more under you, and makes the pad more critical. A synthetic bag supplies a bit more insulation underneath.
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antiqued
Feb 7, 2008, 8:32 PM
Post #35 of 48
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"Keeping pee warm in your bladder burns calories that would otherwise be used to heat the rest of your body."
Where did this myth start? Does this mean that you shouldn't drink water - you'll have to keep that warm? What's the difference between a bladder full of water and a stomach full?
The body loses heat from the surface. It is a very uncomfortably full bladder that increases your surface area. The 'physics and engineering' approach indicates no excess loss of heat from a full bladder.
Is it biochemical?
Is it psychological? (the constant thought of having to go out and relieve oneself focusses one's thoughts on that chilling experience?)
Or is it nonsense?
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Fenst
Feb 7, 2008, 8:46 PM
Post #36 of 48
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Look it up. Having excess liquid to heat in your body burns more calories. Why do you think eating a candybar in the middle of the night warms you up to an extent...it's because of the calories. Having a stomach full of water is completely different than having a full bladder. When water is in your bladder, it is not being absorbed as readily as if it was in your stomach or gastro tract. So why keep that excess water warm that is sitting in your bladder? It's physiological. Im not trying to lecture here but I am trying to pass on a valuable piece of camping/survival knowledge.
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irregularpanda
Feb 7, 2008, 8:57 PM
Post #37 of 48
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I just eat butter
then, eat more butter, and gnaw on a stick of butter all night, you'll be able to sleep naked if you want.
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irregularpanda
Feb 7, 2008, 9:00 PM
Post #38 of 48
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it's not nonsense and its certainly not biochemical.
It might be psychological, but basically just pee before going to bed.....
when you have fluid in your bladder, your body keeps it warm and thus uses (just some) energy to keep it warm.
Whether its exothermic or endothermic you physics geeks can argue about.....
then eat more butter.
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antiqued
Feb 8, 2008, 5:55 AM
Post #39 of 48
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Fenst wrote: Look it up. I'm trying - got any scientific source? .... Why do you think eating a candybar in the middle of the night warms you up to an extent I think it's because digestion is an exothermic process, and dunking candy bars in acid/enzymes generates heat ... Having a stomach full of water is completely different than having a full bladder. When water is in your bladder, it is not being absorbed as readily as if it was in your stomach or gastro tract. How is that different? It still "needs" to be kept at body temp, absorbed or not. So why keep that excess water warm that is sitting in your bladder? The urine is at body temp. The bladder walls, and the flesh outside the bladder are also at body temp. Whatever heat is lost by the bladder goes to the body, and vers vicea. It's physiological. Can you describe the mechanism of heat loss? |
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Fenst
Feb 8, 2008, 7:38 AM
Post #40 of 48
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Again, not here to lecture. Here's what I found....Jeffrey Utz, M.D., Neuroscience, pediatrics, Allegheny University says,
"Adult men, about 60% of their bodies
are water. Fat men also have less water (as a
percentage) than thin men." which most climbers are thin men/women. I also found that if you are in "elite physical shape" you retain even more of a %.
I haven't found solid scientific proof for the reason to pee to keep yourself warmer in cold weather. I am a WFR and I was taught by my instructors this technique. The point I neglected to point out is, that if you have any urge to pee and you think you will get colder by opening your sleeping bag and/or tent to pee then you will get colder vs. not peeing and holding it in all night is a myth.
I was trying to point out the advantages of "releasing" the extra fluid that is not being readily absorbed by your body versus holding in the water that burns many calories to keep it heated. Calorie retention is a crucial element to keeping warm in survival/extreme cold senerios.
If you think about it all five mechanisms of heat loss are involved by holding in pee. Radiation, conduction, convection (in some cases), evaporation, and respiration.
Analogy: Think of a 5 gallon bucket of water in a shelter and in a sleeping bag. How many calories would it take to keep that bucket at a steady 98 or so degrees?.... Now think of a 4.8 gallon bucket of water in a similar shelter and sleeping bag just next door. Which "bucket" will "burn" more calories to keep it at that 98 degrees.....the larger volume 5 gallon bucket, of course.
Water is a complex subject and is difficult to understand. Our bodies are mainly comprised of this elementary compound. Sorry I couldn't find the time to back myself up with a scientific source but I am open and looking forward to any input on this subject. Have a great trip!
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microbarn
Feb 8, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #41 of 48
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Fenst wrote: Again, not here to lecture. Here's what I found....Jeffrey Utz, M.D., Neuroscience, pediatrics, Allegheny University says, "Adult men, about 60% of their bodies are water. Fat men also have less water (as a percentage) than thin men." which most climbers are thin men/women. I also found that if you are in "elite physical shape" you retain even more of a %. I haven't found solid scientific proof for the reason to pee to keep yourself warmer in cold weather. I am a WFR and I was taught by my instructors this technique. The point I neglected to point out is, that if you have any urge to pee and you think you will get colder by opening your sleeping bag and/or tent to pee then you will get colder vs. not peeing and holding it in all night is a myth. I was trying to point out the advantages of "releasing" the extra fluid that is not being readily absorbed by your body versus holding in the water that burns many calories to keep it heated. Calorie retention is a crucial element to keeping warm in survival/extreme cold senerios. If you think about it all five mechanisms of heat loss are involved by holding in pee. Radiation, conduction, convection (in some cases), evaporation, and respiration. Analogy: Think of a 5 gallon bucket of water in a shelter and in a sleeping bag. How many calories would it take to keep that bucket at a steady 98 or so degrees?.... Now think of a 4.8 gallon bucket of water in a similar shelter and sleeping bag just next door. Which "bucket" will "burn" more calories to keep it at that 98 degrees.....the larger volume 5 gallon bucket, of course. Water is a complex subject and is difficult to understand. Our bodies are mainly comprised of this elementary compound. Sorry I couldn't find the time to back myself up with a scientific source but I am open and looking forward to any input on this subject. Have a great trip!
Didn't want your 'proof' and misunderstanding of physics to be lost.
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altelis
Feb 8, 2008, 4:37 PM
Post #42 of 48
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Fenst (et al)
You are all VASTLY misunterstanding the issues at play here
1) The MAJORITY of calories "wasted" in relation to drinking water is in warming that cold water you drank to 36.5 degrees. That is where the largest expenditure of energy comes in---once the water is in thermal equalibrium with your body it doesn't require that much energy to maintain that temp. cause where is the energy going to be lost from to allow it to cool? once in thermal equilibrium with your body it can't convect, conduct or radiate heat any more (ok, it can, but that exact amount of heat energy LOST from the water is GAINED by the body----this is def of thermal equilibrium)
2) There is a very good reason to pee when you have to but this has nothing to do with warmth. YOU ARE BEING KEPT AWAKE BY THE URGE TO PEE!!!!!!!! SO PEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you need your sleep. you just put in a massive 18 hour day. you need to put in 3 more equally long days. sleep is a precious commodity. why lay awake in denial about having to pee when you could just frickin pee and GO BACK TO BED!!!!!!!!
my guess is that there is some perception of being colder, but i think this is because you are really mostly awake and thinking about how much it sucks to have to pee and you are more aware of a slightly lower temp where as if you were asleep the only slightly lower temp would go unnoticed
3)To Summarize:
Most heat is lost when you initially heat up the cold water you just drank---this takes place in the tummy; once its warmed up (in your bladder) its really not an issue. in fact, one could probably argue that the difference in energy needed to keep the water vs urine warm is vastly different. not only does the water need to be warmed up from a cold temp, but its pure water. the urine, already warm, has lots of solutes in it----my best guess would be that the specific heat of water is MASSIVE compared to urine
JUST PEE---not about warmth but about SLEEP
TO stay warm: drink water farther away from sleeping that you may normally and keep eating that butter. this will a) mean you aren't in very deep sleep when you need to pee b)have plenty of calories to warm the WATER (not keep the urine warm
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watchmego
Feb 8, 2008, 4:57 PM
Post #43 of 48
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yogurt containers work great as a pee bottle for the ladies. get into a four-legged stance and adjust as necessary. anything with a wide enough mouth (smaller coffee ground containers work too), just practice before using it inside your sleeping bag...
for me the real key to sleeping warm is keeping my feet warm. having love socks to change into every night that stay in my bag and never leave along with booties if necessary assures that i don't wake up in the night.
silk bag liners work wonders too.
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j_ung
Feb 8, 2008, 5:05 PM
Post #44 of 48
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monkeychild wrote: In reply to: I have done it with a similar setup. You may not be toasty warm but you wont be shivering. With a hat, you may not a need many layers. One perhaps two sets of heavy weight baselayers may be all you need. A couple of things you should do- 1) Eat a hot filling meal and be hydrated before sleeping. 2) Boil and Boil some more, hot water and put it in your nalgene. Put the nalgene inside your sleeping bag it will act as a heater and will stay heated for awhile. 3) Have a piss bottle inside your tent. You loose a lot of heat going outside to take a leak. Piss in the bottle in the tent, seal it and fuhgettaboutit. Thanks, that sounds like solid advise. Only, #3 is a bit harder when you're a girl.
You're hosed. Girls are never warm. 
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Uncia
Feb 8, 2008, 6:41 PM
Post #45 of 48
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watchmego wrote: yogurt containers work great as a pee bottle for the ladies. get into a four-legged stance and adjust as necessary. anything with a wide enough mouth (smaller coffee ground containers work too), just practice before using it inside your sleeping bag...
And this coming from "watchmego".
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antiqued
Feb 8, 2008, 6:52 PM
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(I just have a fatal attraction to what appear to be pseudo-plausible reasons for particular actions.)
While I think that it is better to be lying awake all night holding it in than to be lying awake all night shivering, it is even better to be sleeping. No one feels cold while they are sleeping, but awake is a different story. Except in the "worst" conditions, go piss! My arguments are directed at the "takes energy to keep your full bladder warm" theory.
Fenst wrote: I am a WFR and I was taught by my instructors this technique. Searching the web, I have found this nugget many times - so far always traceable to outdoored.com. Calorie retention is a crucial element to keeping warm in survival/extreme cold senerios. Well, when you urinate, you are spraying calories onto the ground. The suggestion of keeping your warm piss bottle in the bag does retain calories, as does keeping it inside in the first place. If you think about it all five mechanisms of heat loss are involved by holding in pee. Radiation, conduction, convection (in some cases), evaporation, and respiration. Well, I am thinking about it, and having trouble explaining why a full bladder would affect any one of those heat loss mechanisms. Aha! - crossing and uncrossing your legs all night long disturbs your sleeping bag, convecting hot air out. Is that it? Analogy: Think of a 5 gallon bucket of water in a shelter and in a sleeping bag. How many calories would it take to keep that bucket at a steady 98 or so degrees?.... Now think of a 4.8 gallon bucket of water in a similar shelter and sleeping bag just next door. Which "bucket" will "burn" more calories to keep it at that 98 degrees.....the larger volume 5 gallon bucket, of course. I argue differently. If I have two closed sleeping bags with covered 5 gal buckets with heaters and thermostats in them, water at 98F, and one bucket is slightly less full, then the rate of heat loss will be almost identical. The bag is the primary insulation. So the heat flow from the bag inside to the outside is governed by the bag thickness. The water in the full bucket has a greater surface area, so it will lose heat a little faster to the inside of the bag. This will be a small effect, because the temp difference between the water and the sleeping bag interior will be very slight. This effect is not relevant to the full bladder, because that does not change the body's surface area. Second order effects - does the heavy bucket compress the bag/pad more, lowering the insulation beneath it? |
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wnclizard
Feb 14, 2008, 7:45 PM
Post #47 of 48
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I agree with all of the comments made, but, nobody has mentioned the ''Fire Mattress". I use this method just to see if I could get it right or even if it worked. Much to my dismay, I burnt my ass!! haha. But if you can get it right, you'll wanna sleep naked. Dig a hole out where you plan to lay, about 12-18'' deep. and hot coals, cover back up with dirt,(sand is best). But,this method can be dangerous .
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irregularpanda
Feb 14, 2008, 8:28 PM
Post #48 of 48
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I like the fire mattress idea.
It sounds like instead of climbing and hiking all day, you'd be tending coals, awesome!
seriously, chew on a stick of butter, it's easy, cheap, and a great way to gain weight! The women are more attracted to a guy who eats pure fat. Don't believe me, ask my friends who've tried the same and experienced the fatty taste of success @ www.eatastickofbutter.com/
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