|
zeke_sf
Dec 1, 2008, 5:41 AM
Post #26 of 63
(8506 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
Goo wrote: it has all been said already.
ipso facto, pc++
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Dec 1, 2008, 6:34 AM
Post #27 of 63
(8494 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
IFPC++FTPTFTW!!!
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 1, 2008, 9:10 AM
Post #28 of 63
(8475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
zeke_sf wrote: Goo wrote: it has all been said already. ipso facto, pc++
Preservation of evidence...
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 1, 2008, 9:11 AM
Post #29 of 63
(8475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
zeke_sf wrote: IFPC++FTPTFTW!!!
...for future banzing.
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Dec 1, 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #30 of 63
(8460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
zeke_sf wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Another reason is so you have a dedicated draw biner and rope biner. Wouldn't want that notched biner cutting/abrading your rope. >Cam Personally, I don't buy that argument.* *Another reason for Rockie not to climb with Zeke is he doesn't abide by the rope biner / pro biner practice taught by lead climbing course instructors everywhere.
What he said is correct. When you fall on quickdraws the hanger cuts into the top biner leaving a sharp hanger scar. If the rope runs over this hanger scar under tension the biner can damage the sheath. I have personally seen such scars damage a rope's sheath.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Dec 1, 2008, 3:59 PM
Post #31 of 63
(8429 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
angry wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I was going to say that. The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal.
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Dec 1, 2008, 9:21 PM
Post #32 of 63
(8408 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
USnavy wrote: zeke_sf wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Another reason is so you have a dedicated draw biner and rope biner. Wouldn't want that notched biner cutting/abrading your rope. >Cam Personally, I don't buy that argument.* *Another reason for Rockie not to climb with Zeke is he doesn't abide by the rope biner / pro biner practice taught by lead climbing course instructors everywhere. What he said is correct. When you fall on quickdraws the hanger cuts into the top biner leaving a sharp hanger scar. If the rope runs over this hanger scar under tension the biner can damage the sheath. I have personally seen such scars damage a rope's sheath.
Huh. I've taken some decent whippers on bolts and never noticed such a sharp hanger scar on the bolt side of the carabiner. I'm still not convinced of that being a common occurence I should worry about. Never heard of rope / webbing failure or otherwise related to it either. Anecdotal evidence like yours will, however, cause me to examine my biners more closely after such falls. Are there some cases reported out there I am missing?
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
Dec 1, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #33 of 63
(8395 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
Sharp hanger scars do happen quite frequently, I have seen them several times on my bolt end biners, but after clipping a few more bolts the sharpness wears off. I haven't personally seen any rope damage due to this, but I have seen sharp enough burrs on biners to know that it would be possible. That said, I do use bolt side biners on the rope sometimes when I need more biners. i just check to see that there is no sharpness on them.
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Dec 1, 2008, 10:21 PM
Post #34 of 63
(8389 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
kennoyce wrote: Sharp hanger scars do happen quite frequently, I have seen them several times on my bolt end biners, but after clipping a few more bolts the sharpness wears off. I haven't personally seen any rope damage due to this, but I have seen sharp enough burrs on biners to know that it would be possible. That said, I do use bolt side biners on the rope sometimes when I need more biners. i just check to see that there is no sharpness on them.
I'll definitely look out for it. To take a little bit of the fun out of this, I'll admit that I generally do adhere to a bolt side / pro side. For the simple fact that curved or wire-gated rope side biners are easier to clip, if nothing else. But I also swap my biners between my 24" slings for trad and my dog bones for sport and I know that some bners have seen both bolt and rope because of this. If you guys can get something more conclusive than some anecdotal evidence, I'll gladly use that as ammo aganst my wife to convince her my very life is at stake, and, yes, I really do need that dedicated rack of Wild Country Helium sport draws. Help a brother out, rc.com!
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Dec 1, 2008, 10:21 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Dec 2, 2008, 7:20 AM
Post #35 of 63
(8362 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
zeke_sf wrote: USnavy wrote: zeke_sf wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Another reason is so you have a dedicated draw biner and rope biner. Wouldn't want that notched biner cutting/abrading your rope. >Cam Personally, I don't buy that argument.* *Another reason for Rockie not to climb with Zeke is he doesn't abide by the rope biner / pro biner practice taught by lead climbing course instructors everywhere. What he said is correct. When you fall on quickdraws the hanger cuts into the top biner leaving a sharp hanger scar. If the rope runs over this hanger scar under tension the biner can damage the sheath. I have personally seen such scars damage a rope's sheath. Huh. I've taken some decent whippers on bolts and never noticed such a sharp hanger scar on the bolt side of the carabiner. I'm still not convinced of that being a common occurence I should worry about. Never heard of rope / webbing failure or otherwise related to it either. Anecdotal evidence like yours will, however, cause me to examine my biners more closely after such falls. Are there some cases reported out there I am missing?
Well it depends on what type of bolts you’re climbing on. If you’re climbing on glue-in bolts then this does not apply because they don’t have a hanger with a sharp edge. Some hangers are rounded off to help reduce the occurrence of these scars such as those manufactured by Mad Rock. However most hangers such as the popular Fixe 304 and 314 stainless steel 30 and 40 kN 4 mm stock hangers will leave a scar if you fall on them. Every single one of my quickdraws has these scars. Some are worse then others but all of them have it.
It ultimately depends on what hangers you’re climbing on, how hard you fall on them, and how long it’s been since the last fall. If you often hangdog routes you will find that the hanger will slowly grind down the carabiner reducing the sharpness of the last hanger scar.
Nonetheless hanger scars, whether you realize it or not, are extremely common and unavoidable. However they are not extremely dangerous. It’s very unlikely they will physically cut the rope in half however sharper hangers scars can damage the sheath of the rope in a fall reducing the life span of the rope or in extreme cases requiring you to retire the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
Parkerkat
Dec 2, 2008, 10:01 PM
Post #36 of 63
(8330 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2008
Posts: 263
|
I can vouch for this...my biners too have a little scarring.. not to bad yet, but I can see it getting worse over time.. if you use a grigri..take a look a the locking biner and you may find the same thing...but not sooo bad.. just some slight notching.
Kinda makes sense...huge forces pushing two metal pieces together? How could it not scar..even just a little?
Cheers!
|
|
|
|
|
donald949
Dec 9, 2008, 5:19 PM
Post #37 of 63
(8285 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2007
Posts: 11455
|
angry wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I guess I should not have said "much more dynamic" but do they really do nothing for the forces applied to the biners and the bolt? Doesn't just having the dogbone there spread the force out between two biners and the dogbone instead of having it all go onto one biner? No, they are inline, not parallel.
Which is to say the force of the fall is loaded from the rope biner to the draw to the bolt biner to the bolt to the rock.
Also, it would be more correct technically to say the dog bones/runners do not strech much. The climbing rope does most of the streching and lowing of shock loading in the system.
|
|
|
|
|
ptlong
Dec 9, 2008, 6:03 PM
Post #38 of 63
(8272 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2007
Posts: 418
|
I've used a single locking carabiner instead of a QD on the first bolt when I was worried I might deck getting to the next one. It shortens the fall by a foot or more and adds a little bit of rope drag.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Dec 9, 2008, 6:48 PM
Post #39 of 63
(8253 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
zeke_sf wrote: kennoyce wrote: Sharp hanger scars do happen quite frequently, I have seen them several times on my bolt end biners, but after clipping a few more bolts the sharpness wears off. I haven't personally seen any rope damage due to this, but I have seen sharp enough burrs on biners to know that it would be possible. That said, I do use bolt side biners on the rope sometimes when I need more biners. i just check to see that there is no sharpness on them. I'll definitely look out for it. To take a little bit of the fun out of this, I'll admit that I generally do adhere to a bolt side / pro side. For the simple fact that curved or wire-gated rope side biners are easier to clip, if nothing else. But I also swap my biners between my 24" slings for trad and my dog bones for sport and I know that some bners have seen both bolt and rope because of this. If you guys can get something more conclusive than some anecdotal evidence, I'll gladly use that as ammo aganst my wife to convince her my very life is at stake, and, yes, I really do need that dedicated rack of Wild Country Helium sport draws. Help a brother out, rc.com!
I also switch my biners between draws and longer slings, and I know some have seen both ends of a sling. If I've been sport climbing, I check the biners for any burrs and file them down. I've occasionally had to do the same to a roughed up hex. It's something to be aware of, but isn't something I lose sleep over.
|
|
|
|
|
apeman_e
Dec 12, 2008, 2:54 PM
Post #40 of 63
(8182 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2008
Posts: 212
|
In reply to: rtwilli4 wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I guess I should not have said "much more dynamic" but do they really do nothing for the forces applied to the biners and the bolt? Doesn't just having the dogbone there spread the force out between two biners and the dogbone instead of having it all go onto one biner? wow i am shocked that anyone would believe this. anyone could have a mistaken belief, but after being corrected you are still clueless. with 500+ posts, you have probably dispensed some terrible advice
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Dec 12, 2008, 2:57 PM
Post #41 of 63
(8180 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
You're on a biner roll this morning Apedude! Hey! Go to the clove hitch on two biners thread now! NOW!
|
|
|
|
|
pmyche
Dec 12, 2008, 3:44 PM
Post #42 of 63
(8162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 1160
|
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Dec 12, 2008, 5:59 PM
Post #44 of 63
(8124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
Yeah, rope drag increases fall factor, as it reduces the amount of rope able to freely move and stretch to absorb energy. Quickdraws reduce drag, so therefor reduce the fall factor and hence the peak force applied to the pro.
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Dec 14, 2008, 1:58 AM
Post #45 of 63
(8077 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
sungam wrote: Yeah, rope drag increases fall factor, as it reduces the amount of rope able to freely move and stretch to absorb energy. Quickdraws reduce drag, so therefor reduce the fall factor and hence the peak force applied to the pro.
More specifically it reduces impact force. Fall factor is simply a ratio. A fall factor is the dividend of the total fall distance over the amount of rope out. ;) Rope drag in itself has no effect on fall factor for it’s only a ratio not an expression of actual impact force. ;)
(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 14, 2008, 2:00 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Dec 14, 2008, 1:31 PM
Post #46 of 63
(8050 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
USnavy wrote: sungam wrote: Yeah, rope drag increases fall factor, as it reduces the amount of rope able to freely move and stretch to absorb energy. Quickdraws reduce drag, so therefor reduce the fall factor and hence the peak force applied to the pro. More specifically it reduces impact force. Fall factor is simply a ratio. A fall factor is the dividend of the total fall distance over the amount of rope out. ;) Rope drag in itself has no effect on fall factor for it’s only a ratio not an expression of actual impact force. ;)
Reduces impact force? Surely it increases impact force (as measured from the climber side). Rope drag reduces the effective amount of rope stretch and increases the braking force on the climber thus increasing the climbers impact force.
In contrast rope drag reduces the impact force felt by the belayer because the drag takes much of the force.
Finally the impact force felt by the top piece is increase when there is increase rope drag. However it should be noted that the force is already reduced by ~20% in the case of minimal rope drage due to pulley friction.
Sometimes there is a distinction made between the fall factor and the effective fall factor. This is what sungam was referring to. Rope drag increases the effective fall factor.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Dec 14, 2008, 2:31 PM
Post #47 of 63
(8038 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
USnavy wrote: zeke_sf wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Another reason is so you have a dedicated draw biner and rope biner. Wouldn't want that notched biner cutting/abrading your rope. >Cam Personally, I don't buy that argument.* *Another reason for Rockie not to climb with Zeke is he doesn't abide by the rope biner / pro biner practice taught by lead climbing course instructors everywhere. What he said is correct. When you fall on quickdraws the hanger cuts into the top biner leaving a sharp hanger scar. If the rope runs over this hanger scar under tension the biner can damage the sheath. I have personally seen such scars damage a rope's sheath.
I have a story. Some one I know was using a quickdraw to "tram" down a steep sport route to clean it. He used the bolt end of the carabiner on the rope and he noticed when he was on the ground that it sliced he sheath all the way down the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 14, 2008, 2:34 PM
Post #48 of 63
(8037 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
patto wrote: USnavy wrote: sungam wrote: Yeah, rope drag increases fall factor, as it reduces the amount of rope able to freely move and stretch to absorb energy. Quickdraws reduce drag, so therefor reduce the fall factor and hence the peak force applied to the pro. More specifically it reduces impact force. Fall factor is simply a ratio. A fall factor is the dividend of the total fall distance over the amount of rope out. ;) Rope drag in itself has no effect on fall factor for it’s only a ratio not an expression of actual impact force. ;) Reduces impact force? Surely it increases impact force (as measured from the climber side). Rope drag reduces the effective amount of rope stretch and increases the braking force on the climber thus increasing the climbers impact force. In contrast rope drag reduces the impact force felt by the belayer because the drag takes much of the force. Finally the impact force felt by the top piece is increase when there is increase rope drag. However it should be noted that the force is already reduced by ~20% in the case of minimal rope drage due to pulley friction. Sometimes there is a distinction made between the fall factor and the effective fall factor. This is what sungam was referring to. Rope drag increases the effective fall factor.
You folks are funny.
Dongbones don't stretch. The rest of this shit is just supposition that is pretty much meaningless in the real world.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Dec 14, 2008, 4:45 PM
Post #49 of 63
(8017 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
critterdude542 wrote: hey there, i'm a fairly new climber and i was just wondering what is the main reason to use a quickdraw instead of just a carabiner through the bolt.
I wondered this myself once..Here is what I found out
Taken from my post in dumbest things you have ever done thread.
"Most of my climbing career learning stages were defined by having good background reading and some fantastic mentors...unfortunately sportclimbing wasn't one of those areas..Sport climbing had just started to take off in the US when I got into climbing and most of my mentors were crusty mountaineers and ground up trad ethicists..
One of my early sport leads I didn't have quickdraws and was just using a single biner. It was a very short route 3, 1/4" bolts on a route with a couple low end .10 moves ending with a right-hand traverse to the anchor.
After the second bolt I heard my belayer gasp looked down to see that one of the biners had come un-clipped. Made me a bit nervous but I could see the moves and felt better finishing than trying to downclimb...
Eventually got to the rap anchor looked down and saw that ALL THREE BOLTS had come unclipped!!! Woulda been a 30ft deck onto boulders!!!
Belayer simply shaking his head obviously pretty scared for me ..yelled up that he didn't warn me because there was no point scaring me if I couldn't do anything about it.
I had to agree and thanked him for not mentioning it when I got down.
Learned about draws the hard-way that day..Well almost the hard way.."
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Dec 14, 2008, 4:46 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Dec 14, 2008, 6:22 PM
Post #50 of 63
(8085 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
patto wrote: USnavy wrote: sungam wrote: Yeah, rope drag increases fall factor, as it reduces the amount of rope able to freely move and stretch to absorb energy. Quickdraws reduce drag, so therefor reduce the fall factor and hence the peak force applied to the pro. More specifically it reduces impact force. Fall factor is simply a ratio. A fall factor is the dividend of the total fall distance over the amount of rope out. ;) Rope drag in itself has no effect on fall factor for it’s only a ratio not an expression of actual impact force. ;) Reduces impact force? Surely it increases impact force (as measured from the climber side). Rope drag reduces the effective amount of rope stretch and increases the braking force on the climber thus increasing the climbers impact force. In contrast rope drag reduces the impact force felt by the belayer because the drag takes much of the force. Finally the impact force felt by the top piece is increase when there is increase rope drag. However it should be noted that the force is already reduced by ~20% in the case of minimal rope drage due to pulley friction. Sometimes there is a distinction made between the fall factor and the effective fall factor. This is what sungam was referring to. Rope drag increases the effective fall factor.
A lack of rope drag reduces impact force over an abundance of rope drag. You knew precisely what I meant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
