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chilli
Feb 6, 2009, 7:19 PM
Post #26 of 76
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i agree with many of your points, but there is a gradient across the board from truly supportive environments to those that are standoffish to downright disrespectful, but you'll find that anywhere there are humans around.
the climbing discipline battles exist just as do disciplinary battles in any activity. surfing, foir example has all the same problems that climbing does and worse. longboarders think shortboarders are a bunch of cocky punks and shortboarders think longboarders ar lame lazy assholes taking up their waves and calling rank just because they have a few years on them.
i think that the 'climbing community' loses a lot of its communal feeling online. my advice simply put: just ignore the haters and be real. there are always going to be obnoxious people in the world; it just seeems to be human nature for some reason. that's only amplified online. it may have something to do with anonimity, or lack of instant feedback with non-verbal communication, or simply that it's harder to get a good ass-kicking for flaming comments. who knows... what i do know is that i can try to make my interactions with those online reasonable and logical with some level of respect. if the sentiment is not returned, that's fine with me - i don't feel any longing for the input of some trite little f**kers anyway. keep in mind too, that people state their opinions like they're fact, but they're still just opinions.
sorry that your gym experience is so bad. ours is the other end of the spectrum. everyone is super-supportive. i'm no bouldering expert either. hell V5 is a good day, but i still have kids sending V8s cheering me on and helping out. i don't know what to tell you about that one. you might be letting yourself get a little hypersensitized to it. i find if you just talk and joke around with a lot of those guys/girls they're really nice and welcoming... then again AZ could be full of gym-rats who are just dicks (i don't know - never been to your gym).
people who spray are annoying, there's no way around that fact. just remeber that ratings are guidelines to tell you whether something is going to be easy or frustrating or a fun challenge. i like to gently remind sprayers of that by stating my opinion on the matter, while trying to be diplomatic and not dismissive about some need they have to make themselves sound good to others.
overall, i've found that simply being friendly and approachable to anyone regardless of the preconceived notion i have of them from some dick-less interaction i saw them have before helps. if they're still jerks, i just check them off my list of people to bother with in the future.
i guess it could all be simply stated by saying that being consistenly in a state where you climb for the love of the rock, talk for the love of listening to others, and let the rest go, then interactions become a little more fun.
and for those of you that think i'm suddenly sounding all optimistic and sappy, i still think humans shouldn't be breeding ;)
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teo916
Feb 6, 2009, 7:24 PM
Post #27 of 76
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I felt this way when I first started climbing a while back. I came to think that if you climb, then on some level you are out to prove something. Wheather its to yourself, or to others, that is the difference. To some climbers, it seems to be more of a competition amongst other climbers. Whereas with other climbers, its more of a competition to better one's self, and to appreciate the challenge of climbing for what it is.
I've climbed with some amazing climbers who were way out of my league, but were willing to be patient with folks (me included) who could not climb at their level, and teach them about climbing and help them improve, without all the ego. I've also climbed with climbers who are out to prove to the world that they can be good at something, usually because they aren't good at anything else and are insecure about it.
Avoid climbing with the latter types of people, and you will improve not only your technique, but your peace of mind. Keep in mind though, it is a sport, and has evolved into more of a competitive sport in the last few years, especially around the gym culture. So along with that, (as with any sport) you are going to find more of the competitive attitude that you are talking about. Hang in there though, try to relax and just have a good time, which it seems is all you really want to do.
By the way, I appreciated what you said about the relationships you had with your fellow climbers, and can relate to that. For me its always been a great way to hang out with good people, outside, getting exersise, and feeling the rush of trying and failing, only to try again and maybe if I was lucky enough, succeed. Then being able to share those moments with my climbing buddies afterwards over a beer. Good times! That's what matters right?
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zeke_sf
Feb 6, 2009, 7:38 PM
Post #28 of 76
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If you're climbing's Rodney King, then I say no; no I don't think we can all get along, but we can choose our own actions.
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nthusiastj
Feb 6, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #29 of 76
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Why was there ever a Bud Bowl?
I mean, Bud and Bud light are really the same beer! They BOTH taste like old urine.
Really, did it matter who won? The people that had to drink that swill lost either way.
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hafilax
Feb 6, 2009, 7:45 PM
Post #30 of 76
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The climbing community is pretty friendly and inclusive here in Vancouver. Most outsiders that I meet climbing in Squamish comment on how friendly everyone is here. Discipline rivalries are largely just friendly teasing much like the snowboard/alpine/tele.
Online arguments can come off as hatred but a lot of that is the fact that you don't have body language to gauge the true sentiment.
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petsfed
Feb 6, 2009, 7:46 PM
Post #31 of 76
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Just to be clear, there is no "climbing community" any more than there is a "camry owning community".
Yes, we all climb. But that's pretty much all we're guaranteed to have in common.
The days where the total number of climbers in the country numbered in the 1-2 thousand are long since dead. There are simply too many of us, and we've become highly factionalized as a result.
There will be conflicts between climbers when they factionalize like that. And not just between gym climbers and "outdoor" climbers. Not just between trad climbers and sport climbers. But simply between people.
Please realize that climbing doesn't attract exclusively the conflict free personalities. The act of climbing doesn't make you a good person. An asshole who starts climbing will still be an asshole, no matter how much he "gives back to the community" in the form of route development or volunteer time. I've seen it way too often. Some people really are just jerks.
Remember that real respect, not just basic human decency, is earned, not given. So if you find the Tuscon gym climbers to be standoffish, do something to earn their respect. Be friendly with them. Don't just walk in expecting that they'll treat you as an equal. Nobody owes you that right out of the gate.
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zeke_sf
Feb 6, 2009, 8:04 PM
Post #32 of 76
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petsfed wrote: The days where the total number of climbers in the country numbered in the 1-2 thousand are long since dead. There are simply too many of us, and we've become highly factionalized as a result.
I don't know, I'm not buying the halcyon days depiction of climbing. Any history I've heard of climbing included a lot of disputation for first ascent glory, verbal and physical confrontations, and egos run rampant. I don't think climbing became "factionalized," it, in fact, has a time-honored tradition of iconoclastic cliques and the individual vs. everybody else.
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joek
Feb 6, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #33 of 76
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petsfed wrote: Remember that real respect, not just basic human decency, is earned, not given. So if you find the Tuscon gym climbers to be standoffish, do something to earn their respect. Be friendly with them. Don't just walk in expecting that they'll treat you as an equal. Nobody owes you that right out of the gate.
Yes, real respect has to be earned. But in a pursuit as selfish and trivial as climbing (especially in the gym...) I see no reason why someone shouldn't be treated as an 'equal' right out of the gate.
(This post was edited by joek on Feb 6, 2009, 8:16 PM)
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jcrew
Feb 6, 2009, 8:19 PM
Post #34 of 76
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i'm getting this.....
i was first introduced to technical climbing as a high- schooler in colorado. being from so. cal., i was kinda in awe of the "mountain people", all climbers, skiiers, mtn. bikers, hang glider pilots, etc.. everyone seemed so alive, yet humble from their experiences with the powerful Rockies. The climbers seemed so real, Charlie Fowler being the epitome of this culture. I wanted in.......
Now i find myself back in SO. Cal., climbing short routes with the prana-set....
to make a long story short.....i think that when the danger was removed from climbing, some of the perspective of mortality, greater forces, and basic lust for just living was lost. that's my thesis.
(This post was edited by jcrew on Feb 6, 2009, 8:21 PM)
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dingus
Feb 6, 2009, 8:20 PM
Post #35 of 76
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Not gonna happen.
DMT
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looserock
Feb 6, 2009, 8:22 PM
Post #36 of 76
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Here's a stereotype; every snobby climber I've encountered was also a high-end cyclist, jk
Really though, there are snobs at my gym, as well as every other sports location in town. When you use a sport for socializing; your skill level directly effects your fellowship. If you want to use climbing for socializing, then practice and get good at it.
The single pitch climbing I'm interested in is solitary to me. It I could safely solo, I would go by myself. People are just too damn busy, and since the crag is 100 miles; it's like pulling teeth to get friends to go.
I'm going to pony up the money for a silent partner, and blow everybody off.
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climbsomething
Feb 6, 2009, 8:32 PM
Post #37 of 76
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rockram wrote: I address the issues of cynycism in: The Tucson, AZ rock gym Outdoors RC.com Climbing culture in general Hello fellow climbers...I wish to make a point that reflects what my overall feelings have been for some time now concerning the climbing community at large. I feel that the climbing "community" of my preference exists only when I go out climbing with my buds, or friendly people I recently met. I respect you all and share your love for climbing. I find it interesting, however, that there is so much negative criticism directed towards people, criticism almost to the point of disdain, generated from the issues of level of skill in a climber and his/her climbing style preference. Gym vs. outdoors. Trad vs. Sport. Number dropping (ratings), and the list goes on and on. I feel that there certainly are legitimate issues at hand, such as trad vs. sport issue about only making necessary alterations to the natural cliff face, but some take this to the extreme and miss the purpose. If you feel that sport climbing should entirely not exist, for instance (it honestly seems to me that some argue that point), you are entitled to state your opinion but do so respecfully. It's only your opinion and you will not force it upon others by looking down on sport climbers. Which brings up the issue of labeling. For all intents and purposes, I choose to narrow down my specific climbing expertise and abilities only for the purpose of not getting myself into a hairy mess out on the rock and also for knowing how I can personally grow in ability. I don't seperate myself in ratings or type of climbing to "distinguish" myself from others in an attempt to create an inferiority complex. I find this stigma when I go to what is currently the only rock gym in Tucson, AZ. For the most part, people there are stand-offish and I would rather not even attempt the boulder pit anymore because, well, I suck at it and get much less than friendly encouragment from the plastic junkies (sorry, it's so hard not to label when they act like that). I want to get better at gym climbing, but not at the expense of paying good money for a crappy emotional environment. With such tension in the air, I find it hard to overlook the personal issue of mine that there's a roof blocking my view of nature (one of the reasons I climb is for the view). I guess when going to the gym, you just have to look for other natural beauties :-)...but if they are grouchy and stand-offish, I'm not interested in the least, even if climber chicks are hot! Also, another example of this stigma are many of the posts on rc.com. I love rc.com and like to be a part of it, but it feels so superficial when it creates barriers and people forget that they can respecfully disagree on an issue, and have an open mind. I look up jokes and songs on the internet about climbing, and find that many of them dis on all different kinds of climbers. Good luck helping someone change that way! Equally important to me as what I climb and how I climb it is WHO I climb with. My best experiences revolve around people...and climbing enhances that bond. A crag just wouldn't have the same appeal to me without my brother and friends there! Even climbing, the most beloved sport of all in my book, isn't the same without relationships. That's my soap-box speech. Call me the Rodney King of RC.com if you will...I don't care. I stand by my opinion here.
I didn't find it hard to ignore the regulars who annoyed me. I found the birthday parties, bratty scout troups, and lack of AC much worse. And really, all gyms have a strong douchebag contingent.
That said, the best climbing in Tucson is in Hueco and the college kids tend to rove in packs of obnoxious gumbies, so maybe that's what breeds the gym chuffery. Yes, I was an obnoxious college gumby once, and no, Mt. Lemmon is not great. It's merely good, in spots. Small spots.
Just ignore the tools or climb with an ipod. If somebody as anti-social and snarky as I am can do that, so can you.
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irregularpanda
Feb 6, 2009, 8:34 PM
Post #38 of 76
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There's a community in climbing? Says who?
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dingus
Feb 6, 2009, 8:44 PM
Post #39 of 76
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irregularpanda wrote: There's a community in climbing? Says who?
Lots of people of course.
But they are wrong, we are not a community. We are tribal.
We have tribes, each with its own flavor of customs and norms. We have little bands of kindred spirits that belong to these tribes.
I'm Yosemite Tribe for example. Werner is our chief.
There are lots of tribes. But to call them a community is a stretch. Community evokes Village People and Hillary Clinton and well, rules and shit.
We don't have no stinking rules - only customs, norms and taboos. No rule books, cept for the Gym Tribe and they're all fags anyway haha.
As soon as someone reaches for the rule book they are Off the Reservation and are deserving of a beat down.
You gets beat in and you gets beat out... of this gang called climbing.
Tribal.
You know I speak the truth.
DMT
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k.l.k
Feb 6, 2009, 8:57 PM
Post #40 of 76
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zeke_sf wrote: petsfed wrote: The days where the total number of climbers in the country numbered in the 1-2 thousand are long since dead. There are simply too many of us, and we've become highly factionalized as a result. I don't know, I'm not buying the halcyon days depiction of climbing. Any history I've heard of climbing included a lot of disputation for first ascent glory, verbal and physical confrontations, and egos run rampant. I don't think climbing became "factionalized," it, in fact, has a time-honored tradition of iconoclastic cliques and the individual vs. everybody else.
Yeah, but the "factions" are different now-- they're market niches. And that's a new distinction.
We used to have regional rivalries, rivalries based on class/ethnic background (the Waspy aggies and the urban Vulgarians), generational strife, and competitive bickering, but the increasing sub-division of the sport into specialties and the new demography have changed stuff in important ways.
It used to be extremely difficult to climb only with folks of your own age, class, and educational profile who all liked exactly the same clothes/music/politics, etc. There just weren't enough climbers to allow folks to be that picky about partners and crews.
And the grand divides-- the "Big Sort"--that we've seen in US demography (Red Cos. and cities getting redder, blue ones bluer), is remaking climbing social life as well.
Of course, it sounds like our OP may have found a gym with its own peculiar culture.
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onceahardman
Feb 6, 2009, 9:15 PM
Post #41 of 76
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In reply to: If you feel that sport climbing should entirely not exist, for instance (it honestly seems to me that some argue that point), you are entitled to state your opinion but do so respecfully. It's only your opinion and you will not force it upon others by looking down on sport climbers.
Rockram, this partial quote of yours shows part of the problem. Being a (relatively) newer gym climber, your perspective is skewed.
You call it "hate" when traditional climbers, who have historically protected the rock, defend their passion, and the medium on which it occurs, from the onslaught of grid-bolting.
I have seen cliffs which were extensively top-roped (30+ years ago), and sometimes led on natural gear, grid-bolted, and seen guidebooks published to them.
I'm not saying sport climbing shouldn't exist. It's fun. But it should be limited to areas which cannot be otherwise protected. And, nothing should ever be retro-bolted without the permission of the first ascentionist. (and even then...)
You talk about "doing so respectfully"...while not decrying retro-bolting, or bolting "tweeners" between beautiful traditional routes. THAT, to me, is a lack of respect.
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kachoong
Feb 6, 2009, 9:23 PM
Post #42 of 76
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k.l.k wrote: It used to be extremely difficult to climb only with folks of your own age, class, and educational profile who all liked exactly the same clothes/music/politics, etc. There just weren't enough climbers to allow folks to be that picky about partners and crews.
And there lies one of the true essenses of climbing. Through my climbing life I've had heaps of fun with people from different backgrounds, of different ages and professions. Climbing with someone more than double your age has a way of breaking through any potential barrier that may exist... somehow you enjoy the time and you always learn something in the process (even if it's how to eat through a straw).... you become friends when otherwise, without climbing, you would have walked right on by...
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climbsomething
Feb 6, 2009, 9:56 PM
Post #45 of 76
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Well, I do live in Flagstaff now. I'm afraid my condition is not going to get any better. 
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notapplicable
Feb 6, 2009, 10:06 PM
Post #46 of 76
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dingus wrote: No rule books, cept for the Gym Tribe and they're all fags anyway haha. DMT
Bwahahahahaha...!!
Man oh man, if I was in the market for a new sig. line that would be it.
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dschultz
Feb 6, 2009, 10:43 PM
Post #47 of 76
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I started climbing when I was 38 (10 years ago) and it was the people in the gym (up in Phoenix - Climbmax) that encouraged me. I used to play a lot of basketball and there is a young man's court and an old man's court. Climbing was cool because the rock is the rock is the rock. Many young strong plastic pullers accepted the creepy old guy trying to stay in shape and enjoying the challenge of the sport. It wasn't long until the invites for outside climbs occured and some of those young bucks are still good friends. My point? People are like routes - each is a bit different and some will suite you better than others - appreciate them all and in general the climbers I have met are pretty damn accepting as a whole both in the gym and at the crag. Enjoy the flow...
DaveS
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ladyscarlett
Feb 6, 2009, 10:47 PM
Post #48 of 76
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dingus wrote: irregularpanda wrote: There's a community in climbing? Says who? Lots of people of course. But they are wrong, we are not a community. We are tribal. I'm Yosemite Tribe for example. Werner is our chief. There are lots of tribes. But to call them a community is a stretch. Community evokes Village People and Hillary Clinton and well, rules and shit. We don't have no stinking rules - only customs, norms and taboos. No rule books, cept for the Gym Tribe and they're all fags anyway haha. You gets beat in and you gets beat out... of this gang called climbing. Tribal. You know I speak the truth. DMT
Tribal eh? So what's the Yosemite tribe's rite of passage? - this newbie just got addicted to Yosemite...if I come with peace offerings of beer and water coolie services will I be allowed into foreign territory? heh!
Addressing your comment about gym tribes...Being part of what you would call a Gym Tribe in the SF Bay area, I suppose it's a double whammy for me! I climb in rainbow - have to represent! ha!
that aside, in regards to RC.com, I find it different from other forums only in content. Music/band forums are no different - look at the Phish forum...a "hippie" feel good band with a forum that pulls no punches. These attitudes and characters are not limited to climbing in any way...
but you might as well have a good laugh about it all!
ls
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Maddhatter
Feb 6, 2009, 11:07 PM
Post #49 of 76
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I in my years of climbing have found there are people I like to climb with and people I do not. Same as anything in life. I'm not going to like people just because they climb. To say some thing like "Climbers are cool people"is just stupid. Some climbers are cool and some are not and that is just the way I like it. It makes the nights around the camp fire much more fun.
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kriso9tails
Feb 7, 2009, 12:15 AM
Post #50 of 76
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Maddhatter wrote: Some climbers are cool and some are not and that is just the way I like it. It makes the nights around the camp fire much more fun.
While it doesn't happen so often, I agree with you totally here.
On a separate note, I'd like to go on record saying that I hate each and every last one of you. For this I blame my mother for not hugging me enough as a child... and that guy that raped my puppy when I was eight.
"Peace! I hate the word as I hate hell, all Montagues and thee. Have at thee coward(s)!"
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Feb 7, 2009, 12:26 AM)
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